The Codie Parent Does Much More Damage to the Children
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 326
The Codie Parent Does Much More Damage to the Children
Alcoholic father who died in a drunk driving crash when he was 44. Codie mother who never could admit to any unpleasant fact of her life such as she got knocked up as a teen or he husband drank too much or that she ever made a bad decision in life or ever did anything mean or hurtful to anyone else.
Most codies have their lives come crashing down on them as their 'qualifiers' get worse; eventually most codies have to face their codependency or live in utter misery. Hers died and left her a lot of money via insurance and she's led a low level country club life, for the most part golfing, doing some travel and gossiping with a small group of friends for the last 25 years. She's a very smug woman who feels sure that her financial comfort and small group of friends is evidence that she did life right, and her reward for her loving heart, intelligence, perception and great wisdom.
My father was not a good father. He was moody, mean, rejecting, and contemptuous of me. When he died I didn't care. Not one bit. I was glad, I thought maybe his removal from the family would bring us all closer together. It seemed to--on the surface, but really didn't. It just made it easier to pretend. But once he was gone, or even before he died, when he was out of sight, he really was out of mind and out of heart.
My mother was not a good mother, although she thinks she was the best. She was more like a day care worker: kept us clean and fed and productively occupied--but there was no human touch. No affection, no nurturing, and you were NOT TO HAVE INCONVENIENT FEELINGS or to notice inconvenient facts. All inconvenient feelings are to be smothered, and all inconvenient facts (such as the fact that her sister slept with my husband) are to be shoved under the rug. And we are all to pretend and rejoice that we are a happy close family.
But we aren't.
My brother has a pleasant superficial relationship with her, but his emotional heart is with his wife and her family. My mother has said so many cutting, mean, passive aggressive things over the last 3 years, I am minutes away from cutting her out of my life forever. I have one addicted son living out of state who has nothing to do with me or his brothers (but who is buttering up grandma who loves it), and I have one son who will have nothing to do with her at all, and my third son disapproves of her and is distancing himself from her, although she hasn't a clue that he's disgusted with her.
Recently I invited my mother to choose a counselor to help us resolve our issues, a counselor of her choice. And i listed some of the issues I'd like the counselor to help us with. She basically said she couldn't remember any of the issues and I have mental health problems and she wishes me well but can't do anything for me. I do not have mental health problems, not at all. It was basically a 'F you' letter, and was cold and rejecting all while painting herself as a saint.
My middle son looked sick when he read it, and my youngest was disgusted.
I'm going to try one more time this week, and then I probably am going to cut her out of my life forever; to such an extent that she will not be able to contact me if 5 years from now she changes her mind or that I will even know when she dies.
She's going to reject the offer, she will never take responsibility for her crappy behavior even the shabby passive aggressive things she's done in the last 12 months, much less the last 40 years. She's going to eventually find herself a sick fragile lonely old lady with a family that consists of an exploitive, violent substance abusing grandson, a remote **** of a sister who has never put herself out for anyone, another sister whom she considers stupid and flighty, and a stable son who will do the right thing and visit her in her nursing home regularly and see that things are taken cared of, but who won't ever be able to handle the emotional needs of someone in decline and who certainly will never notice things like nursing home abuse or poor medical treatment.
She's cutting three stable, warm, energetic family oriented people out of her life permanently; and it hurts us terribly. When my father was gone, no one missed him. But we miss her (when she can keep her nasty passive aggressiveness under control), and miss my brother and the one aunt (the 'stupid' one). We weren't close, but it was nice being together sometimes.
And of course we miss my AS, although he seems only able to be pleasant to be around when he working his agenda to groom grandma for money and divide and conquer various family members. Since he's in full manipulation mode these days, we don't really miss him very much, only miss what he used to be.
The point of this post is that the codie parent did the most damage to the kids, not the substance abusing parent. I see it both in me and my brother, but since I was the family scapegoat and he the golden child (typical alcoholic dysfunctional family roles), it's hurt me more. I also hold her more responsible, and the games she played, her manipulations and her denials were far more painful.
At least you knew where you stood with my father; you never knew with my mother. Her loving reassuring words never match up with her rejecting, judgmental, stand offish actions. His words and actions matched. He didn't bother with denial. His drinking and his behavior weren't to be questioned. She is the Empress of Denial, it must take all her strength in life to keep the lid on her pandora's box.
Most codies have their lives come crashing down on them as their 'qualifiers' get worse; eventually most codies have to face their codependency or live in utter misery. Hers died and left her a lot of money via insurance and she's led a low level country club life, for the most part golfing, doing some travel and gossiping with a small group of friends for the last 25 years. She's a very smug woman who feels sure that her financial comfort and small group of friends is evidence that she did life right, and her reward for her loving heart, intelligence, perception and great wisdom.
My father was not a good father. He was moody, mean, rejecting, and contemptuous of me. When he died I didn't care. Not one bit. I was glad, I thought maybe his removal from the family would bring us all closer together. It seemed to--on the surface, but really didn't. It just made it easier to pretend. But once he was gone, or even before he died, when he was out of sight, he really was out of mind and out of heart.
My mother was not a good mother, although she thinks she was the best. She was more like a day care worker: kept us clean and fed and productively occupied--but there was no human touch. No affection, no nurturing, and you were NOT TO HAVE INCONVENIENT FEELINGS or to notice inconvenient facts. All inconvenient feelings are to be smothered, and all inconvenient facts (such as the fact that her sister slept with my husband) are to be shoved under the rug. And we are all to pretend and rejoice that we are a happy close family.
But we aren't.
My brother has a pleasant superficial relationship with her, but his emotional heart is with his wife and her family. My mother has said so many cutting, mean, passive aggressive things over the last 3 years, I am minutes away from cutting her out of my life forever. I have one addicted son living out of state who has nothing to do with me or his brothers (but who is buttering up grandma who loves it), and I have one son who will have nothing to do with her at all, and my third son disapproves of her and is distancing himself from her, although she hasn't a clue that he's disgusted with her.
Recently I invited my mother to choose a counselor to help us resolve our issues, a counselor of her choice. And i listed some of the issues I'd like the counselor to help us with. She basically said she couldn't remember any of the issues and I have mental health problems and she wishes me well but can't do anything for me. I do not have mental health problems, not at all. It was basically a 'F you' letter, and was cold and rejecting all while painting herself as a saint.
My middle son looked sick when he read it, and my youngest was disgusted.
I'm going to try one more time this week, and then I probably am going to cut her out of my life forever; to such an extent that she will not be able to contact me if 5 years from now she changes her mind or that I will even know when she dies.
She's going to reject the offer, she will never take responsibility for her crappy behavior even the shabby passive aggressive things she's done in the last 12 months, much less the last 40 years. She's going to eventually find herself a sick fragile lonely old lady with a family that consists of an exploitive, violent substance abusing grandson, a remote **** of a sister who has never put herself out for anyone, another sister whom she considers stupid and flighty, and a stable son who will do the right thing and visit her in her nursing home regularly and see that things are taken cared of, but who won't ever be able to handle the emotional needs of someone in decline and who certainly will never notice things like nursing home abuse or poor medical treatment.
She's cutting three stable, warm, energetic family oriented people out of her life permanently; and it hurts us terribly. When my father was gone, no one missed him. But we miss her (when she can keep her nasty passive aggressiveness under control), and miss my brother and the one aunt (the 'stupid' one). We weren't close, but it was nice being together sometimes.
And of course we miss my AS, although he seems only able to be pleasant to be around when he working his agenda to groom grandma for money and divide and conquer various family members. Since he's in full manipulation mode these days, we don't really miss him very much, only miss what he used to be.
The point of this post is that the codie parent did the most damage to the kids, not the substance abusing parent. I see it both in me and my brother, but since I was the family scapegoat and he the golden child (typical alcoholic dysfunctional family roles), it's hurt me more. I also hold her more responsible, and the games she played, her manipulations and her denials were far more painful.
At least you knew where you stood with my father; you never knew with my mother. Her loving reassuring words never match up with her rejecting, judgmental, stand offish actions. His words and actions matched. He didn't bother with denial. His drinking and his behavior weren't to be questioned. She is the Empress of Denial, it must take all her strength in life to keep the lid on her pandora's box.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 326
I also want to warn codie parents, particularly mothers who are convinced they are doing the right thing staying with alcoholic/substance abusing men. You may think your children are being protected and come first and are the most important thing in your life.
You may feel the waves of love rushing out of you to envelope them--but all your care and thoughts and love are going first through your alkie/druggie, and it's like 'going through the glass darkly', not much is actually reaching the kids.
You can look at them and see them well fed, doing well in school, nicely dressed, with activities and say: "They are doing well, they know I love them, this is the right thing, they understand." But I'm telling you that's not what's happening.
I was considering suicide a couple days on my 12th birthday. I'd had a nice birthday party, I had a pretty bedroom with a canopy bed, I had nice close and someone to drive me to ballet and scouts if I signed up. My mother would color with me sometimes and when I got older we played Scrabble. We had nice holidays and went on vacation. My grades were great and I never acted out: never drank or partied or was inappropriate with boys. But I remember my childhood as a dark and lonely place and my family as a source of pain and uncertainty.
If you have a substances abuser in your household, even if your kids want him or her there, you are abusing your kids. It you are focused on the 'qualifier', constantly thinking about their problems you are not thinking about your children. You may think you are, but you aren't.
If you have a substance abuser or alcoholic in the house, your children are suffering from child abuse. I know children want both parents there--but children who are severely beaten and starved and sexually abused by their parents also want to stay with their parents. IOW, children don't get to choose.
I believe it is always best to live separately from the 'qualifier'; this offers the kids a safe environment, and almost forces the codie parent to detach and focus on him/herself and the kids. I understand a determined codie can still find ways to engage in the sick dance with the 'qualifier' from separate houses just as an alkie locked in solitary confinement can still find a way to drink. But it's so necessary for the non-substance abuse using parent not to spend all their time reacting and filtering their thoughts and emotions through the 'qualifier'.
I understand that financially it might be difficult, the standard of living will be reduced. That's ok, that's still healthier. I understand that for certain substance abusers and small children, unsupervised visitation can be terribly scary and it may seem better just to live with the alkie to monitor things (I was in that position with my XAH and my little children and he did abuse them on visition--just as he did in the home too).
But still in my opinion the best thing you can do for your children is to get the 'qualifier' out of the house, make your home a safe place for your kids EMOTIONALLY, and get emotional help for yourself. If it wasn't your own problems that led you to hook up with a 'qualifier', then having lived with a 'qualifier' has damaged you in ways you might find surprising, so it's important to get good help for yourself.
Living with an alcoholic was bad for me; it damaged me. It was bad for my mother; it damaged her. 28 years after my father's death the damage is still corrupting our lives AND another generation--and not just in the form of my AS succumbing to addiction; but in the pain of my 'good' children in having to deal with a grandmother who won't face her culpability, and a mother who is still struggling with the problems of her parents.
As soon as you know you have given your children a parent with drug or alcohol problems, establish a separate safe residence without the qualifier. If the qualifier gets their act together and actually goes into firm recovery, the family can be reunited, and the damage will be minimal. If they never do or it takes years and years and years, decades, then a lot of damage will be avoided.
Separating from the qualifier will also force the non-addictive parents to cope with his or her own demons. This will benefit the children immensely: codie parents do a lot of damage to their children in their own name--it's not just the alcoholic or druggie who's damaging the kids.
I ask this on behalf of kids everywhere: please drop the rope in your struggle with the alkie/druggie, turn towards your kids without the qualifier in the middle, and tend to your own wounds. Your kids NEED you to do this.
You may feel the waves of love rushing out of you to envelope them--but all your care and thoughts and love are going first through your alkie/druggie, and it's like 'going through the glass darkly', not much is actually reaching the kids.
You can look at them and see them well fed, doing well in school, nicely dressed, with activities and say: "They are doing well, they know I love them, this is the right thing, they understand." But I'm telling you that's not what's happening.
I was considering suicide a couple days on my 12th birthday. I'd had a nice birthday party, I had a pretty bedroom with a canopy bed, I had nice close and someone to drive me to ballet and scouts if I signed up. My mother would color with me sometimes and when I got older we played Scrabble. We had nice holidays and went on vacation. My grades were great and I never acted out: never drank or partied or was inappropriate with boys. But I remember my childhood as a dark and lonely place and my family as a source of pain and uncertainty.
If you have a substances abuser in your household, even if your kids want him or her there, you are abusing your kids. It you are focused on the 'qualifier', constantly thinking about their problems you are not thinking about your children. You may think you are, but you aren't.
If you have a substance abuser or alcoholic in the house, your children are suffering from child abuse. I know children want both parents there--but children who are severely beaten and starved and sexually abused by their parents also want to stay with their parents. IOW, children don't get to choose.
I believe it is always best to live separately from the 'qualifier'; this offers the kids a safe environment, and almost forces the codie parent to detach and focus on him/herself and the kids. I understand a determined codie can still find ways to engage in the sick dance with the 'qualifier' from separate houses just as an alkie locked in solitary confinement can still find a way to drink. But it's so necessary for the non-substance abuse using parent not to spend all their time reacting and filtering their thoughts and emotions through the 'qualifier'.
I understand that financially it might be difficult, the standard of living will be reduced. That's ok, that's still healthier. I understand that for certain substance abusers and small children, unsupervised visitation can be terribly scary and it may seem better just to live with the alkie to monitor things (I was in that position with my XAH and my little children and he did abuse them on visition--just as he did in the home too).
But still in my opinion the best thing you can do for your children is to get the 'qualifier' out of the house, make your home a safe place for your kids EMOTIONALLY, and get emotional help for yourself. If it wasn't your own problems that led you to hook up with a 'qualifier', then having lived with a 'qualifier' has damaged you in ways you might find surprising, so it's important to get good help for yourself.
Living with an alcoholic was bad for me; it damaged me. It was bad for my mother; it damaged her. 28 years after my father's death the damage is still corrupting our lives AND another generation--and not just in the form of my AS succumbing to addiction; but in the pain of my 'good' children in having to deal with a grandmother who won't face her culpability, and a mother who is still struggling with the problems of her parents.
As soon as you know you have given your children a parent with drug or alcohol problems, establish a separate safe residence without the qualifier. If the qualifier gets their act together and actually goes into firm recovery, the family can be reunited, and the damage will be minimal. If they never do or it takes years and years and years, decades, then a lot of damage will be avoided.
Separating from the qualifier will also force the non-addictive parents to cope with his or her own demons. This will benefit the children immensely: codie parents do a lot of damage to their children in their own name--it's not just the alcoholic or druggie who's damaging the kids.
I ask this on behalf of kids everywhere: please drop the rope in your struggle with the alkie/druggie, turn towards your kids without the qualifier in the middle, and tend to your own wounds. Your kids NEED you to do this.
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 2,899
My mom is codependent and my dad is severely depressed (non-A). I'm only recently coming to terms with the levels of gaslighting and denial that were/are going on between us. My dad was not a great parent either, but his failures were mostly passive where hers were active, aggressive, and cut very deep.
Her denial was stronger when I was growing up -- for example, she hid that I was sexually assaulted as a preteen from my family and publicly blamed me for the following breakdown, citing general incorrigibility and questioning the facts of the rape with the treatment team, who were then left to figure out whether or not this kid was actually raped or just crazy. I'm still crawling out of that hole. The events that followed and her inability to address it, I believe, lead me directly to the point where I romanticized all the red flags I saw in my husband (and every other guy prior) when we met. After all, we were just two broken people who totally *understaaaaaand* each other.
She is still all over me. Saturday night she called me in tears begging me to reconcile with my AH because *she* loves him and because she's worried about what will happen to the kids. I told her that I was more worried about what would happen to the kids if I was forced to stay in an alcoholic marriage. She burst into tears and hung up on me. She keeps calling me just to be cold and distant.
I don't want to be this way with my kids.
Her denial was stronger when I was growing up -- for example, she hid that I was sexually assaulted as a preteen from my family and publicly blamed me for the following breakdown, citing general incorrigibility and questioning the facts of the rape with the treatment team, who were then left to figure out whether or not this kid was actually raped or just crazy. I'm still crawling out of that hole. The events that followed and her inability to address it, I believe, lead me directly to the point where I romanticized all the red flags I saw in my husband (and every other guy prior) when we met. After all, we were just two broken people who totally *understaaaaaand* each other.
She is still all over me. Saturday night she called me in tears begging me to reconcile with my AH because *she* loves him and because she's worried about what will happen to the kids. I told her that I was more worried about what would happen to the kids if I was forced to stay in an alcoholic marriage. She burst into tears and hung up on me. She keeps calling me just to be cold and distant.
I don't want to be this way with my kids.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 326
I also want to warn codie parents, particularly mothers who are convinced they are doing the right thing staying with alcoholic/substance abusing men. You may think your children are being protected and come first and are the most important thing in your life.
You may feel the waves of love rushing out of you to envelope them--but all your care and thoughts and love are going first through your alkie/druggie, and it's like 'going through the glass darkly', not much is actually reaching the kids.
You can look at them and see them well fed, doing well in school, nicely dressed, with activities and say: "They are doing well, they know I love them, this is the right thing, they understand." But I'm telling you that's not what's happening.
I was considering suicide a couple days on my 12th birthday. I'd had a nice birthday party, I had a pretty bedroom with a canopy bed, I had nice close and someone to drive me to ballet and scouts if I signed up. My mother would color with me sometimes and when I got older we played Scrabble. We had nice holidays and went on vacation. My grades were great and I never acted out: never drank or partied or was inappropriate with boys. But I remember my childhood as a dark and lonely place and my family as a source of pain and uncertainty.
If you have a substances abuser in your household, even if your kids want him or her there, you are abusing your kids. It you are focused on the 'qualifier', constantly thinking about their problems you are not thinking about your children. You may think you are, but you aren't.
If you have a substance abuser or alcoholic in the house, your children are suffering from child abuse. I know children want both parents there--but children who are severely beaten and starved and sexually abused by their parents also want to stay with their parents. IOW, children don't get to choose.
I believe it is always best to live separately from the 'qualifier'; this offers the kids a safe environment, and almost forces the codie parent to detach and focus on him/herself and the kids. I understand a determined codie can still find ways to engage in the sick dance with the 'qualifier' from separate houses just as an alkie locked in solitary confinement can still find a way to drink. But it's so necessary for the non-substance abuse using parent not to spend all their time reacting and filtering their thoughts and emotions through the 'qualifier'.
I understand that financially it might be difficult, the standard of living will be reduced. That's ok, that's still healthier. I understand that for certain substance abusers and small children, unsupervised visitation can be terribly scary and it may seem better just to live with the alkie to monitor things (I was in that position with my XAH and my little children and he did abuse them on visition--just as he did in the home too).
But still in my opinion the best thing you can do for your children is to get the 'qualifier' out of the house, make your home a safe place for your kids EMOTIONALLY, and get emotional help for yourself. If it wasn't your own problems that led you to hook up with a 'qualifier', then having lived with a 'qualifier' has damaged you in ways you might find surprising, so it's important to get good help for yourself.
Living with an alcoholic was bad for me; it damaged me. It was bad for my mother; it damaged her. 28 years after my father's death the damage is still corrupting our lives AND another generation--and not just in the form of my AS succumbing to addiction; but in the pain of my 'good' children in having to deal with a grandmother who won't face her culpability, and a mother who is still struggling with the problems of her parents.
As soon as you know you have given your children a parent with drug or alcohol problems, establish a separate safe residence without the qualifier. If the qualifier gets their act together and actually goes into firm recovery, the family can be reunited, and the damage will be minimal. If they never do or it takes years and years and years, decades, then a lot of damage will be avoided.
Separating from the qualifier will also force the non-addictive parents to cope with his or her own demons. This will benefit the children immensely: codie parents do a lot of damage to their children in their own name--it's not just the alcoholic or druggie who's damaging the kids.
I ask this on behalf of kids everywhere: please drop the rope in your struggle with the alkie/druggie, turn towards your kids without the qualifier in the middle, and tend to your own wounds. Your kids NEED you to do this.
You may feel the waves of love rushing out of you to envelope them--but all your care and thoughts and love are going first through your alkie/druggie, and it's like 'going through the glass darkly', not much is actually reaching the kids.
You can look at them and see them well fed, doing well in school, nicely dressed, with activities and say: "They are doing well, they know I love them, this is the right thing, they understand." But I'm telling you that's not what's happening.
I was considering suicide a couple days on my 12th birthday. I'd had a nice birthday party, I had a pretty bedroom with a canopy bed, I had nice close and someone to drive me to ballet and scouts if I signed up. My mother would color with me sometimes and when I got older we played Scrabble. We had nice holidays and went on vacation. My grades were great and I never acted out: never drank or partied or was inappropriate with boys. But I remember my childhood as a dark and lonely place and my family as a source of pain and uncertainty.
If you have a substances abuser in your household, even if your kids want him or her there, you are abusing your kids. It you are focused on the 'qualifier', constantly thinking about their problems you are not thinking about your children. You may think you are, but you aren't.
If you have a substance abuser or alcoholic in the house, your children are suffering from child abuse. I know children want both parents there--but children who are severely beaten and starved and sexually abused by their parents also want to stay with their parents. IOW, children don't get to choose.
I believe it is always best to live separately from the 'qualifier'; this offers the kids a safe environment, and almost forces the codie parent to detach and focus on him/herself and the kids. I understand a determined codie can still find ways to engage in the sick dance with the 'qualifier' from separate houses just as an alkie locked in solitary confinement can still find a way to drink. But it's so necessary for the non-substance abuse using parent not to spend all their time reacting and filtering their thoughts and emotions through the 'qualifier'.
I understand that financially it might be difficult, the standard of living will be reduced. That's ok, that's still healthier. I understand that for certain substance abusers and small children, unsupervised visitation can be terribly scary and it may seem better just to live with the alkie to monitor things (I was in that position with my XAH and my little children and he did abuse them on visition--just as he did in the home too).
But still in my opinion the best thing you can do for your children is to get the 'qualifier' out of the house, make your home a safe place for your kids EMOTIONALLY, and get emotional help for yourself. If it wasn't your own problems that led you to hook up with a 'qualifier', then having lived with a 'qualifier' has damaged you in ways you might find surprising, so it's important to get good help for yourself.
Living with an alcoholic was bad for me; it damaged me. It was bad for my mother; it damaged her. 28 years after my father's death the damage is still corrupting our lives AND another generation--and not just in the form of my AS succumbing to addiction; but in the pain of my 'good' children in having to deal with a grandmother who won't face her culpability, and a mother who is still struggling with the problems of her parents.
As soon as you know you have given your children a parent with drug or alcohol problems, establish a separate safe residence without the qualifier. If the qualifier gets their act together and actually goes into firm recovery, the family can be reunited, and the damage will be minimal. If they never do or it takes years and years and years, decades, then a lot of damage will be avoided.
Separating from the qualifier will also force the non-addictive parents to cope with his or her own demons. This will benefit the children immensely: codie parents do a lot of damage to their children in their own name--it's not just the alcoholic or druggie who's damaging the kids.
I ask this on behalf of kids everywhere: please drop the rope in your struggle with the alkie/druggie, turn towards your kids without the qualifier in the middle, and tend to your own wounds. Your kids NEED you to do this.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 166
Sad Heart,
Thank you for posting this. I am in the midst of my own struggle right now with my AGF. She doesn't live in my home but has enough of a presence that I feel it can be damaging to my 4 kids. She doesn't get drunk around them, but her racist, demeaning comments and her manner of speaking to me is horrible. I never wanted my kids to see this type of relationship first hand. They do love her, and I question going no contact yet her untreated mental illness and poor decision making skills put them at risk.
Thank you for posting this. I am in the midst of my own struggle right now with my AGF. She doesn't live in my home but has enough of a presence that I feel it can be damaging to my 4 kids. She doesn't get drunk around them, but her racist, demeaning comments and her manner of speaking to me is horrible. I never wanted my kids to see this type of relationship first hand. They do love her, and I question going no contact yet her untreated mental illness and poor decision making skills put them at risk.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by Florence 
My dad was not a great parent either, but his failures were mostly passive where hers were active, aggressive, and cut very deep....
Her denial was stronger when I was growing up -- for example, she hid that I was sexually assaulted as a preteen from my family and publicly blamed me for the following breakdown, citing general incorrigibility and questioning the facts of the rape with the treatment team, who were then left to figure out whether or not this kid was actually raped or just crazy. I'm still crawling out of that hole. The events that followed and her inability to address it, I believe, lead me directly to the point where I romanticized all the red flags I saw in my husband (and every other guy prior) when we met....
She is still all over me. Saturday night she called me in tears begging me to reconcile with my AH because *she* loves him and because she's worried about what will happen to the kids. I told her that I was more worried about what would happen to the kids if I was forced to stay in an alcoholic marriage. She burst into tears and hung up on me. She keeps calling me just to be cold and distant.
I don't want to be this way with my kids.
Her denial was stronger when I was growing up -- for example, she hid that I was sexually assaulted as a preteen from my family and publicly blamed me for the following breakdown, citing general incorrigibility and questioning the facts of the rape with the treatment team, who were then left to figure out whether or not this kid was actually raped or just crazy. I'm still crawling out of that hole. The events that followed and her inability to address it, I believe, lead me directly to the point where I romanticized all the red flags I saw in my husband (and every other guy prior) when we met....
She is still all over me. Saturday night she called me in tears begging me to reconcile with my AH because *she* loves him and because she's worried about what will happen to the kids. I told her that I was more worried about what would happen to the kids if I was forced to stay in an alcoholic marriage. She burst into tears and hung up on me. She keeps calling me just to be cold and distant.
I don't want to be this way with my kids.
I had TWO alcoholic husbands who hit, and my mother also tried to talk me into staying with them. The first because I think she was worried she would feel obligated to help me financially if I left, and the second because my X fixed her toilet and she liked him for it and she liked his daughter and wanted to play grandma to her (she just has grandsons).
She also wants me to make nice-nice with the aunt who slept with my husband. And she cannot believe that the substance abusing son who hit me, spit on his brother, choked his other brother, was clearly high/manic in her presence, who broke into my house and trashed it twice has a substance abuse problem. It's just a personality conflict with me.
She absolutely, positively believes to the core of her soul that she is a nice, wise, perceptive, all knowing, objective, warm loving woman who has life all figured out and is a success in all areas and that her actions are and always have been above reproach. And evidence to the contrary is not her fault.
Her excuses for why she never called/calls no matter how 'worried' she is about me (and she makes a big deal about being worried about me) is that she always called her mother, so she just assumed I should call her and when i stopped, I changed the rules on her and thus she is a victim.
(Have any of you ever heard of a rule that says you cannot call your daughter you are desperately worried about because there's a rule that mothers can't call daughters, only daughters can call mothers?)
She doesn't remember 'detailed' conversations, so when she laughed at me for not knowing how to have a marriage (during my divorce), it can't be held against her since she doesn't remember.
As for my unhappy childhood and my daily rejection by my father--well, that was so long ago, she was a different person back then (no she wasn't), so she's just not going to deal with it. She can't even commiserate with me about it, and if it left me with problems, then I should see a therapist and learn how to get over it. Her lack of affection and neglect are meaningless since she did so much for me that I have 'chosen' not to see; I'm focusing on the wrong thing (in short: if I focused on her sainthood, I would not be so unhappy with her).
Oh, and she's too old to deal with problems any more (not that she ever did deal with problems, she was always an inveterate under-the-carpet sweeper). The fact that she is still causing problems shouldn't mean she should have to deal with them, she's 70 now and she's just too old. Her mother got to the point when she couldn't deal with problems any more, and she's gotten to that point too.
Once you are 70, you are exempt from having to deal with problems. I guess if your rude mouth and passive aggressive behavior hurt other people, that's just too bad for them. She's now exempt from consequences because of her age and you should just focus on her wonderfulness and get a therapist if that's not enough. A 'good' therapist will make you see things her way.
She's a piece of work, but very confident in her perfection and blamelessness. I think she's beyond any help and it's not possible to have a relationship with her.
But I write this to other codies (and I was one too) to warn them to examine themselves carefully, that being the 'savior' who holds everything together and is 'always there' for the children, which is what my mother believes she did ("No matter how bad anything go, I was always there for you") does not look the same to the children as it does to the codie-parent.
Parents are judged on their emotional honesty. My effed up, nasty alkie dad was hurtful, but he was emotionally honest. "I don't like you, didn't want you, and reject you." Ouch, but...okay, eff you too.
But my mother with her, "I love you more than anyone ever has" while ignoring me for long periods of time (altho she pretends to be wringing her hands in anguish for me) and setting up lots of situations to ensure I feel bad about myself (such as just sending me a piece of typing paper folded in 4 with a birthday clip art picture on it and no gift for a birthday acknowledgement when everyone else in the family gets a nice card and a gift worth about $200).
My mother's words and actions don't and never have matched up; she refuses to see it...and the hurt she's done me is far worse than anything my father did.
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Very powerful post.
I have so much anxiety about not being a good mother. How do I know if I get it right? Do I go through the motions with my kids never feeling it? I make so many mistakes but if they feel loved and precious that is something - but can I get that part right? I just don't know. Everything feels so broken all the time and like I'm just gluing and stapling **** together like a 3yo rather than healing us all to make us stronger.
I have so much anxiety about not being a good mother. How do I know if I get it right? Do I go through the motions with my kids never feeling it? I make so many mistakes but if they feel loved and precious that is something - but can I get that part right? I just don't know. Everything feels so broken all the time and like I'm just gluing and stapling **** together like a 3yo rather than healing us all to make us stronger.
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My mother was a codie mother in that my father was an abusive tyrant. I felt the same way about him when he died as you did when your father died.
But did my mother do more damage? Why compare? They each played their role, and lived their life the best way they knew how, even if they were very very very far from perfect, or not regretful, lacked remorse, and blocked out anything that might make them feel guilty.
I don't think it is fair that you are holding your mother to a higher standard than your father.
I recently went on a rant to my older sis about my codie minister mother that swept everything under the rug, and that's where it all still is today.
What I can say is that this type of anger hurts nobody but yourself. As a codie parent in my own adulthood that married a happy go lucky alcoholic, I will take more responsiblity since he was not her biological father.
What I read in your post is a lot of bitterness and rage. As adults we have to own our own feelings, and stop blaming somebody else for them.
Nobody is given a perfect childhood that's all rosy. Nobody!
So we all have to move past it.
It is not your mother's responsiblity to take care of your feelings now that you are an adult. It is your responsiblity, and you own that anger, not her. My mother has still not owned what was hers, but I sure am not going to go through life with a chip on my shoulder because of it, nor cut her out of my life, although her company in small doses is enough. She will never own every mistake she made, or even a small number of them, but what is done is done, what is past is past, and she is living out her 70's in the way she wants to with the baggage of the past behind her. Why shouldn't she? Why should she have to hash out ancient history for me? The tyrant is dead, she's old now, she deserves to simply enjoy what life she has left. Live and let live.
My own daughter held me responsible for years even though she was far more attended to not only financially but emotionally by me. But she grew up and realized that I was the one who was looking out for her all along. With some good talks, a few in the beginning that were heated, we sorted it out. She did some finger pointing and then listened, and let me describe my view of the same events. It opened her eyes. Now I am back to the standing I always belonged at, which was the parent that looked out for her all along. She let go of her teenage angst and realized I had her back all along.
Not all codie parents are bad parents that do more damage. I was a wonderful parent, and my daughter who also considered suicide at 13 will now at 23 tell you so.
But did my mother do more damage? Why compare? They each played their role, and lived their life the best way they knew how, even if they were very very very far from perfect, or not regretful, lacked remorse, and blocked out anything that might make them feel guilty.
I don't think it is fair that you are holding your mother to a higher standard than your father.
I recently went on a rant to my older sis about my codie minister mother that swept everything under the rug, and that's where it all still is today.
What I can say is that this type of anger hurts nobody but yourself. As a codie parent in my own adulthood that married a happy go lucky alcoholic, I will take more responsiblity since he was not her biological father.
What I read in your post is a lot of bitterness and rage. As adults we have to own our own feelings, and stop blaming somebody else for them.
Nobody is given a perfect childhood that's all rosy. Nobody!
So we all have to move past it.
It is not your mother's responsiblity to take care of your feelings now that you are an adult. It is your responsiblity, and you own that anger, not her. My mother has still not owned what was hers, but I sure am not going to go through life with a chip on my shoulder because of it, nor cut her out of my life, although her company in small doses is enough. She will never own every mistake she made, or even a small number of them, but what is done is done, what is past is past, and she is living out her 70's in the way she wants to with the baggage of the past behind her. Why shouldn't she? Why should she have to hash out ancient history for me? The tyrant is dead, she's old now, she deserves to simply enjoy what life she has left. Live and let live.
My own daughter held me responsible for years even though she was far more attended to not only financially but emotionally by me. But she grew up and realized that I was the one who was looking out for her all along. With some good talks, a few in the beginning that were heated, we sorted it out. She did some finger pointing and then listened, and let me describe my view of the same events. It opened her eyes. Now I am back to the standing I always belonged at, which was the parent that looked out for her all along. She let go of her teenage angst and realized I had her back all along.
Not all codie parents are bad parents that do more damage. I was a wonderful parent, and my daughter who also considered suicide at 13 will now at 23 tell you so.
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Originally Posted by FindingErica
I needed to read this today. Even though I searated from my AH months ago, I was wondering if I was doing more damage to the kids by not staying with him.
My mother was never emotionally honest, being emotionally honest means acknowledging your smallness, your foolishness, your meanness (and we all are mean sometimes), your cowardice.
It would mean everything in the world to me if my mother would say,
"I know your childhood was terrible. I did what I felt comfortable doing to try to make it better, but I was too scared to do what I should have: I should have left him. But I was afraid of the social stigma; I was afraid of my parents saying we told you so; when I got knocked up as a teen I wanted to show them that it wasn't a stupid thing to do, that the relationship and marriage was strong, and I didn't want to give them the satisfaction of knowing that they were right; I was afraid of the poverty and hard work of being a single mom, I liked being upper middle class and not having to work except when I wanted to at easy jobs; he focused on you and I let him because it made it easier to live with him; I tried to tell myself you didn't notice, or that by sending you to camps or buying you nice bedroom furniture that would make up for it; I was afraid of being alone. I was always scared you were going to set him off by not being docile enough, always scared of the powder keg of your awareness of what was wrong with us; I was glad when you left home. Your perceptions were right. I'm sorry, I'm glad you've done as well as you have, and I want you to know in my imperfect way I do love you."
That's a lot of words and a lot of admissions to make--but in less than 5 minutes my mother could heal all the damage of my childhood. It would replace another decade of therapy. It would make me love and trust her for the rest of her life, and she would have no stauncher ally in her inevitable decline and old age and sickness than me.
It would pay off for everyone.
But she never will. And the consequence will be permanent breach in the family, and her having eventually deal with my AS on her own (with my brother's ineffectual help), and the loss of my company and the company of my other two kids and eventually their kids. AS will never be their for her, and the sluuut sister who slept with her daughter's husband won't be there for her, and her other sister, the one she despises for being too flighty won't be there for her. And her friends will all get fragile and be ensconces in their families and won't be there for her. She will lose the most--and never 'understand' why.
It's just stupid. One woman's stubborn protection of her ego is causing years of damage to 3 generations, deep damage.
And the irony? She's not fooling anyone but herself. I don't think well of her. My 'good' kids don't think well of her. She's not going to be remembered as she wants, but as I remember her.
You don't get to choose your legacy, your descendents choose it for you.
All this false preservation of her ego, all this pain she's causing is FOR NOTHING.
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Originally Posted by MadeOfGlass;3626101.
I don't think it is fair that you are holding your mother to a higher standard than your father.
It is not your mother's responsiblity to take care of your feelings now that you are an adult... but what is done is done, what is past is past, and she is living out her 70's in the way she wants to with the baggage of the past behind her. Why shouldn't she? Why should she have to hash out ancient history for me?...
It is not your mother's responsiblity to take care of your feelings now that you are an adult... but what is done is done, what is past is past, and she is living out her 70's in the way she wants to with the baggage of the past behind her. Why shouldn't she? Why should she have to hash out ancient history for me?...
It IS my mother's responsibility what she says and does. Within the last 12 months she has said and done a whole slew of nasty things. I am at the point that she either takes responsibility for her behavior or she gets completely cut out of my life. **I** am taking responsibility for ridding my life of all toxic and unhealthy relationships--and she is one. She either changes her attitude or I will treat her like I treated my father--disown her completely.
Being 70 does not give you the right to meddle in someone else's business and then when it blows up in your face, whimper: "I'm old, I can't be held responsible for what happened."
It is NOT all ancient baggage...she's producing new baggage left and right as we speak. This weekend was the last incident. If you aren't too old to cause problems, you aren't too old to suffer the consequences of those problems.
And yes, I have the right to speak of my childhood experience the way I perceived them; she does not have the right to demand and punish me because she thinks it should be kept secret.
She's definitely the kind who wants to hide the dirty laundry.
I'm definitely the kind who is going to hang it out to air. Guess what happens when you hang it out to air in the fresh air and sun? The stench drifts away and the sun bleaches out the stains. Her laundry is moldering and stinking deep in her soul, my is cleansing and becoming fresh.
The struggle is over how to deal with our joint laundry. I'm airing and she can't stop me--and she's ENRAGED. But 'nice' women like her aren't allowed unpleasant feelings such as anger and fear, so she's lashing out in her full passive aggressive glory. This is not ancient history...or rather the 'ancient' history is still being played out today--thus is not ancient.
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One woman's stubborn protection of her ego is causing years of damage to 3 generations, deep damage.
If she won't go to counseling with you, go on your own. If you can't stand having her in your life, cut her out.
But take responsibility for it.
I used to work with a woman whose alcoholic father beat her mother to death in front of the three children. Her brother committed suicide, her sister became an alcoholic. She had very little sympathy for them. Her attitude was, "it was a horrid traumatic experience. But we all had choices in how we dealt with it. We all had the choice of going to therapy, working through it, and taking responsibility for our own lives. They chose to be victims. That was their choice, but it doesn't mean they were more hurt or traumatized than I was, just that they chose a different way of dealing with it."
You owe it to yourself to stop feeling victimized by your mother and take charge of your own life. Make your own choices. You can't make hers for her, no matter how wrong you think they are.
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Originally Posted by Thumper
I have so much anxiety about not being a good mother. How do I know if I get it right? Do I go through the motions with my kids never feeling it? I make so many mistakes but if they feel loved and precious that is something - but can I get that part right? I just don't know. Everything feels so broken all the time and like I'm just gluing and stapling **** together like a 3yo rather than healing us all to make us stronger.
I don't think we know what kind of a parent we were until our kids are in their forties and have raised their own kids. I have 3; one thinks I'm the worst mother in the world not worthy of the title (my AS); two think I'm wonderful and we are very close.
But who knows, twenty years from now my AS might say I'm the best mother ever and the most loving thing I ever did was kick him out and stop enabling, and my other two might say I was too enmeshed.
Whatever the verdict, though, the kids are the ones who are right. Because they are the product of the parenting--so who would know better than them.
And it's trickier because people are so different. What if I'm the perfect parent for my introverted children, but a failure for my extroverted children? It's very difficult. But there can be no downside to everyone being honest about their own faults.
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In my family, I don't like ranking which parent was "worse" in their dysfunction. They enabled each other to the hilt. Neither one of them dealt with emotional issues in the family, to their kids' detriment.
Dad was a crappy parent -- he was not only of the stoic dad old school, he was also extremely depressive, never treated -- but at least I expected nothing and was occasionally surprised.
Mom, on the other hand, had a lot of lofty words and expectations. Support was granted and then taken away. Affection was spare, but she punished herself with guilt over what I screw up I was if she had an audience. As a child, what are you supposed to do with that? I was a little kid, and then a teenager, who was basing my expectations on what she told me was the truth. I blamed myself. Thanks to her machinations, everyone else in the family blamed me too. We all behaved accordingly. I felt so yanked around depending on the day, her mood, her fears, and her goals.
It's only now as adults that my sisters and I are teasing out the lies she told us and herself. And OMG, all the secrets. So many secrets.
And it's extremely frustrating that it's an ongoing issue.
It wasn't even necessarily her "fault." But it was and is harmful nonetheless.
It's worthwhile to explore because I know I never, ever want to do that to my kids. A few years ago I started falling down into that hole of codependency and anxiety. Thank god I found this place and started therapy again. I don't ever want to repeat history.
Dad was a crappy parent -- he was not only of the stoic dad old school, he was also extremely depressive, never treated -- but at least I expected nothing and was occasionally surprised.
Mom, on the other hand, had a lot of lofty words and expectations. Support was granted and then taken away. Affection was spare, but she punished herself with guilt over what I screw up I was if she had an audience. As a child, what are you supposed to do with that? I was a little kid, and then a teenager, who was basing my expectations on what she told me was the truth. I blamed myself. Thanks to her machinations, everyone else in the family blamed me too. We all behaved accordingly. I felt so yanked around depending on the day, her mood, her fears, and her goals.
It's only now as adults that my sisters and I are teasing out the lies she told us and herself. And OMG, all the secrets. So many secrets.
And it's extremely frustrating that it's an ongoing issue.
It wasn't even necessarily her "fault." But it was and is harmful nonetheless.
It's worthwhile to explore because I know I never, ever want to do that to my kids. A few years ago I started falling down into that hole of codependency and anxiety. Thank god I found this place and started therapy again. I don't ever want to repeat history.
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Originally Posted by lillamy
Well... You know, there comes a point where you need to take responsibility for your life and your decisions and choices regardless of what your parents have done. Continuing to blame her for things going wrong in your life, and your children's life, doesn't help anyone. Doesn't even matter if it's true.
If she won't go to counseling with you, go on your own. If you can't stand having her in your life, cut her out.
If she won't go to counseling with you, go on your own. If you can't stand having her in your life, cut her out.
It's not like she made mistakes 40 years ago and then stopped...she's making them with each interaction she has with us. It never stops.
And we are discussing on how to protect ourselves from her. We love her, but she causes endless pain...not pain from 40 years ago, pain from less than 24 hours ago.
Cut off is very serious, and we don't want to be rash. One son has cut her off. I'm about to. I think the middle one will go another couple rounds with her but will eventually distance himself drastically from her.
And she still doesn't understand when she's "...so nice and loves everyone soooooooo much and just wants everyone to get along..."
And we are all in therapy. And yes, her codependence is still causing FRESH pain even though the alcoholic has been dead for 28 years and until about
March when my AS re-appeared in her life, she had no one to codepend on.
Codependence is a lifestyle choice, it's a way to cope with life--and it's dysfunctional, not only for the codependent but for those who interact with the codependent.
What my father did to me is too bad and I really have no feeling about it one way or another. But then he hasn't rejected me or been mean to me in 32 years.
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Originally Posted by Florence
... Affection was spare, but she punished herself with guilt over what I screw up I was if she had an audience. As a child, what are you supposed to do with that?
Originally Posted by Florence
... It's only now as adults that my sisters and I are teasing out the lies she told us and herself. And OMG, all the secrets. So many secrets.
And it's extremely frustrating that it's an ongoing issue.
And it's extremely frustrating that it's an ongoing issue.
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While my parents were far from perfect I aways felt loved and important to them. I can look back and see where some of my behavior in my adult relationships is rooted in dysfuctional patterns and learning in my childhood but I'm not mad at my parents and I don't blame them. I don't know why really. My dad sure didn't say or show affection and my mother loved me tremendously I know. She was spontanious, social, and fun but also desperately unhappy and she drank every day. They were both ACOA. My dad was only home a few days a year. Perhaps it was the lack of mean or bad things that makes the difference? They were never mean or abusive to me. They believed me and in me.
Anyway, interesting and powerful thread. My kids have told me and their counselors that it was a bad decision for me to leave so telling them I should have left earlier might be true for me but it isn't going to feel honest to them ya know? Now that their dad is sober he lives to far away. He sees them once a year is all and they see this as my fault too
Maybe as they get a little older they will see that it isn't my fault that he moved and that the divorce was just one of those things in a marriage and not blame me for it all. It is a conflict for them. I suspect it is easier for them to see it as my fault because if it is his choice, that means he chooses to leave them behind. My oldest son won't talk about anything - not even to the counselor he had for two years. The 11yo isn't much better. It is hard to know what they are thinking so I talk at them and hope it helps. I suck at all this and feel even more out of water with all these boys.
As a parent I keep reminding myself that I can continue to learn and grow and then just do the best I can, and that is enough. It is all I can do. I know my parents did the best they could, and that was good enough. Maybe that is the difference - feeling like our parents are doing their best?
My mom has been gone for many many years. My dad is in a nursing home now and I get to sort out all his unfinished business. I'm actually way more ticked off about that then anything else because it is a mess. It has been a major major major amount of work for me and he did not do his best. He could have gotten some of that crap in order instead of having it dumped in my lap.
Did you feel like your mom did her best?
ETA: If someone is toxic in your life, even a parent, it is OK to cut them out or severely limit contact in my book. Her past behavior is relevant in that it is the same as her current behavior - and chances are her future behavior will be no different. Past behavior gives us information on how to proceed - especially when there have been no changes or indication that change is forth coming.
Anyway, interesting and powerful thread. My kids have told me and their counselors that it was a bad decision for me to leave so telling them I should have left earlier might be true for me but it isn't going to feel honest to them ya know? Now that their dad is sober he lives to far away. He sees them once a year is all and they see this as my fault too
Maybe as they get a little older they will see that it isn't my fault that he moved and that the divorce was just one of those things in a marriage and not blame me for it all. It is a conflict for them. I suspect it is easier for them to see it as my fault because if it is his choice, that means he chooses to leave them behind. My oldest son won't talk about anything - not even to the counselor he had for two years. The 11yo isn't much better. It is hard to know what they are thinking so I talk at them and hope it helps. I suck at all this and feel even more out of water with all these boys. As a parent I keep reminding myself that I can continue to learn and grow and then just do the best I can, and that is enough. It is all I can do. I know my parents did the best they could, and that was good enough. Maybe that is the difference - feeling like our parents are doing their best?
My mom has been gone for many many years. My dad is in a nursing home now and I get to sort out all his unfinished business. I'm actually way more ticked off about that then anything else because it is a mess. It has been a major major major amount of work for me and he did not do his best. He could have gotten some of that crap in order instead of having it dumped in my lap.
Did you feel like your mom did her best?
ETA: If someone is toxic in your life, even a parent, it is OK to cut them out or severely limit contact in my book. Her past behavior is relevant in that it is the same as her current behavior - and chances are her future behavior will be no different. Past behavior gives us information on how to proceed - especially when there have been no changes or indication that change is forth coming.
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Thank you for sharing such a deep and personal part of your life; it was very powerful.
When I read this I see two parts of your mother; one is the codependent dealing with alcoholism, raising children, etc. I'm sure it was tough and a part of her shut down emotionally.
And for all of those mistakes I feel she does need to confront all the pain she caused to you as a child. Trauma to children comes not only from what parents do; but also what they don't do, should have done; including emotional gifts they should have bestowed.
The other side of your mother; I see denial and it is in the form of that quote I hear so often here:
I didn't cause it, I can't control it, I can't cure it; I think that is how they go.
Your mother feels this way about you and your troubles now; she is giving it all back to you and hiding behind that concept to take responsibility off herself.
Its convenient that she can flip flop between exerting control now with opinions, words, actions and yet she can avoid responsibility by shifting ultimate responsibility for how you react back on you.
There is some truth to that last bit in my opinion; we are responsible for how we react to the people around us; the negativity.
I cannot offer advice on the relationship; except to say your mother is not well emotionally, and I don't think she realizes it, most likely never will at her age. It is tragic actually.
What you wrote above; the things you wish she would say to you; I might suggest you think about sharing this with her. Letting her know on the most basic level that you are in pain, and this is all you need from her is acknowledgment.
Perhaps letting it out regardless of the response from her will provide a means of closure for you.
When I read this I see two parts of your mother; one is the codependent dealing with alcoholism, raising children, etc. I'm sure it was tough and a part of her shut down emotionally.
And for all of those mistakes I feel she does need to confront all the pain she caused to you as a child. Trauma to children comes not only from what parents do; but also what they don't do, should have done; including emotional gifts they should have bestowed.
The other side of your mother; I see denial and it is in the form of that quote I hear so often here:
I didn't cause it, I can't control it, I can't cure it; I think that is how they go.
Your mother feels this way about you and your troubles now; she is giving it all back to you and hiding behind that concept to take responsibility off herself.
Its convenient that she can flip flop between exerting control now with opinions, words, actions and yet she can avoid responsibility by shifting ultimate responsibility for how you react back on you.
There is some truth to that last bit in my opinion; we are responsible for how we react to the people around us; the negativity.
I cannot offer advice on the relationship; except to say your mother is not well emotionally, and I don't think she realizes it, most likely never will at her age. It is tragic actually.
What you wrote above; the things you wish she would say to you; I might suggest you think about sharing this with her. Letting her know on the most basic level that you are in pain, and this is all you need from her is acknowledgment.
Perhaps letting it out regardless of the response from her will provide a means of closure for you.
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