Titanic

We take our vows. "In sickness and in health ... forsaking all others ... 'Til death do us part." We may also bring or have little children along the way.

I believe in vows. I wish she had, but I realize now that words are poor bulwarks against this family disease.

Alcoholism and addiction are sicknesses, aren't they though? The A forsakes us for them too.

Believe me, we have gone above and beyond for our As, and by our vows, in all this. We are not at fault or to blame, even though before going to Al-Anon or coming on SR we were not doing everything right. Hindsight is 20/20 with this disease.

I think there are exceptions to the vows that the non-A could rightfully invoke like domestic violence by the A, or adultery (a vow itself, broken by the A). But even in cases of adultery, infidelities, many couples try marital counseling and some of those families with children are saved. A few perhaps even in cases of domestic violence ... after extensive anger management counseling and other therapy for the A (or maybe a few non-As).

But it is, after all, often part of the disease and one can't really know how much or when until recovery happens.

It is a sickness, I believe. It is part of our vows. Doesn't marital counseling have to be given a chance at some point, even if it were not prescribed or indicated during active addiction, treatment, or early recovery???

Divorce was dirty laundry in the 40s. Today, it's like a fashionable new outfit, huh?

Pelican

Marriage counseling was not an option in my recent marriage. He denied there was a problem.

I believe another member stated it best when he said:

"I made a marriage vow, not a suicide pact."

I don't believe my divorces are fashionable outfits. I believe they are lessons learned.

I love who I am today and accept myself exactly as I am.

Florence

In the past, when divorce came with a heavy stigma, you were expected to suffer in abusive, controlling marriages until one of you died.

Today we have the freedom to cut out the cancer.

I support that.

Tuffgirl

Titanic, there has to be a willing partner wanting to make changes right along with you, who puts the relationship at top priority.

My ex, who did get sober and active in AA, and I tried numerous times to find some common ground. Believe me, a divorce was the last thing I wanted, and I still believe today it was a hasty solution to a bigger problem than our marriage (at 18 months sober, he had still had a lot of growing up to do). But ok, here I am. I didn't like it that it happened the way it did, but here I am.

Vows mean nothing unless two people really make them something together.

RollTide

"I made a marriage vow, not a suicide pact."

Thank you, Pelican. I needed that.

Titanic

I appreciate and value your responses, Pelican, Florence and Tuffgirl!

I agree it takes two to do MC and, when one refuses, the other has to accept (but not necessarily like) that.

I agree that if it's truly a "suicide pact" then it's a different animal. But the first question is: under what circumstances is there a "suicide pact?" Do the people who are in it (presumably both have or are affected by the family disease) get to be the "sane" ones who decide that without at least trying to get an independent, qualified third party to address the problem with them? When and by whom does the "cancer" get diagnosed?

I agree that once the divorce is done, the best way to look at it is as a lesson learned and to accept what happened and oneself. And we like you exactly the way you are too!

I do think, though, that there is too much "People separate or divorce all the time" mentality out there (not saying in you) INSTEAD OF the mentality that "Marriage and family matter tremendously, divorce has terrible consequences for the kids and the spouses in a great many cases, couples ought not make any major decisions during the year of recovery (the AA/Al-Anon recommendation), and doing serious MC ought to be one of the first considerations after sufficient sobriety occurs (so that MC might be effective.)" Like I said, domestic violence being the exception to that.

I'm keeping an open mind though; that's why I'm asking and wondering.

Florence

I'm not a fan of requiring third-party verification to get someone to confirm my suspicions about my unhealthy marriage. In my case, I needed it because I was so beat down by the alcoholism.

In any case, what brought me here was MC. It was there I realized he had a real drinking problem. MC ended when he started attempting recovery two years ago. I was told then that it wasn't worthwhile to continue marriage counseling unless he was 1) sober, and 2) working a recovery program. He could do (1) for awhile, but never committed to (2). He just relapsed, and I demanded an informal separation while I figure out what to do next.

At what point is it okay to draw a line in the sand? Are we partners expected to swallow all this terrible, unacceptable behavior, and have our kids grow up watching us excuse the "disease" and compromising our own lives just to stay married to someone who is literally incapable of having a relationship? Are we supposed to stay married to someone who we can't trust, who's burned every bridge between you? Are we supposed to feel sorry and guilty because it's our responsibility as the sober ones to maintain and rebuild those bridges because of a marital contract? To what board of judges do we have to submit our bruises and broken hearts for judgement that it's "okay" to leave our sick, unavailable, selfish spouses?

Forgive me if this seems harsh, but it's meant to be. As a woman, marrying an alcoholic fifty years ago would have meant a death sentence for me, literally and figuratively. Today I am capable of leaving him -- AS I SHOULD -- because a marriage with him is untenable. Society should support that, not bemoan my freedom to leave as a net loss for the institution of marriage. If anything, it's a net gain.

Titanic

Powerful, great post Florence! No apologies needed. Yes, I totally get how harsh a death sentence that was and would be without the out of divorce ... whether it is the woman OR the man in the "subservient homemaker" role to the alcoholic/addict "high functioning (or not) as the main breadwinner."

The questions in the first paragraph quoted above are great. You expressed them very well. Frankly, I wish I had those answers. Especially balancing, for the kids' sake, the "with or without" options. Suppose the spouses don't fight in front of the kids and just practice "détente" while the A works a recovery program? Does that change anything, as the A always could relapse ... even 30 years down the road long after the kids are out of the home? Maybe I should say 40 years these days to be safe ... from the kids! LOL

Those questions are what I would like answers to, more clarity. Less of a feeling that it's all on me, that I'm no expert on when to "pull the plug" (except for domestic violence), that marriage should REALLY mean something but how far SHOULD that, it go.

All full of ???? on this topic.

Florence

Another thing.

I've seen us codies get really tied up in agonizing over our marriage vows, especially "in sickness and in health," but nobody seems to agonize over our partner's broken promises to "love and cherish" us. We deserve our half of the marital vows too.

Sometimes if it's broken it's broken.

fedup3

What you're asking about vows in marriage and divorce sounds strange to me on this board maybe not on FB but here yes. I would say most of us here have been so beaten down by the alcoholic who yes, does have a disease but also has the choice for help. My major regret would be my kids who I let go through hell during their growing up years and for what? What good did it do them, or me and for that matter the Ex?

Titanic

OH YEAH, RIGHT ON, FLORENCE! And not just that part of the marriage vows do the As break ...

That kills me. I felt that, in marriage, one has to give 100% even when the other can't or won't. It's a partnership that has its ups and downs over time. Sometimes I was way under 50%. Sometimes my spouse was. That's part of marriage, or did I get that all wrong?

It also kills me because I believe not just in "love in marriage" but in "justice" and "fairness" and "equality." In fact, Al-Anon teaches that without justice there can be no compassion, that without both justice and compassion there can be no true "love" and that, to give love a chance, we must "detach with love" from the A.

It is a real unfair and unsettling quagmire that the disease put or puts us in when we were or are married to an A.

wantabe

To paraphrase something I read awhile ago that has really made me think about the whole in sickness and in health vow:

Titanic

I get your point and agree that most of us have been beaten down by the A. But I am not seeking FB answers, those from people who know nothing about what it is like to be in our shoes. I seek answers from those who have lived it or are going through it. Answers from outside experts on addiction and marriage too.

Questions like: when is is too late to get out of that "hell" or when does the balance tip from the marriage/family end to the protect everyone from addiction/alcoholism problems side?

For example, assume that we non-As thought that marriage was absolute, sacred. Someone who was battered by an A then comes along here on SR and says, no, I think domestic violence is a huge exception to marriage and, absent effective therapy, trumps marriage with an A. Great, we would learn from that consideration, factor or option if you will.

That's what I'm asking. What are the other considerations, factors and options? At what points or milestones, and not before, OUGHT we to get to "enough is enough?"

Thanks for your post.

Titanic

What if the cancer itself MAKES your spouse, COMPELS your spouse to buy more cancer ... until recovery is found?

lillamy

Marriage counseling with an actively drinking alcoholic is useless.
My ex wanted me to agree to going to counseling after we divorced so that he could understand why I left him.

In reality, "marriage counseling" for him was an opportunity to get me in the same room to see if he could manipulate me into coming back.

I told him that it would be like asking a rape victim to explain to the rapist what he did wrong, another violation of the same kind.

I believe in the marriage contract. But it's a contract between two people. And when he refused treatment and denied the problem, he broke that contract. I tried to uphold my end until it turned into a suicide pact. Then I left. And the only thing I regret is that I didn't do it sooner.

lillamy

Titanic, I've heard all those arguments, and many more along the same lines, from the pastor at the church AXH and I used to attend. Basically, in his mind, marriage is a suicide pact.

I choose to see it differently. And if that's morally wrong, that's an issue between me and my God. And if people want to condemn me for not staying and dying, they're entitled to their opinions. That has nothing to do with me.

fedup3

What God has joined together let no man put asunder. Well the man who put it asunder was the alcoholic.

BlueSkies1

Titanic,

I think you are asking a personal question and expecting a universal answer. I, for one, think this is one of the great mishaps of religious dogma. But let's try to work it out to everyone's satisfaction...highly religious or not.

How about these scenarios?
An extremely religious Catholic woman that lives in Rome a spit away from the Vatican City is abused by an alcholic husband on a daily basis. She's extremely devout and does not believe in divorce.
Ok...how can this woman solve her problem? Maybe she decides to live separately from the alcoholic physically abusive husband for the rest of her days without ever getting a divorce.
Point being...she gets her needs met, that she doesn't believe in divorce, yet she also protects herself from physical abuse. She will stay married to him to the end of her days. Same can apply to the woman who is in an area of the world that applies Sharia law, a devout Muslim woman, or a woman in the U.S. that is very religious and protestant, it is their personal belief that not getting a divorce is more important than the possibility of remarriage and whatever happiness that may bring. It is a choice they make to believe that way. It is your choice too, and mine, whether or not to seek divorce.

Point being, nobody has to abandon their personal religious beliefs, we can though, protect our body/mind from physical and mental abuse.

At some point though, some people decide that the strict religious beliefs they were brought up with don't apply to their current situation. These people may decide that their needs are better met by getting a divorce. It is simply that for them, the religious rules are set aside as being less important to them than seeking a life of happiness and remarrying possibly sometime in their lifetime. There are many success stories of remarriage.

I think what is important here is that we respect individual choice. I, as an agnostic, hold no bad judgment against the woman that chooses to stay married forever even though her husband is abusive. I do not however, support the belief that a woman should stay in harm's way because of a vow. I can respect the woman that chooses to leave and stay married. Now the woman that stays in the abusive household believing her religion dictates she does this martyring of herself, I think is wrong. This woman I believe is not achieving anything but living by rigid rules that benefit her in no way except that she, or her culture, embraces the rigidity. This is my personal belief, and I'm sure plenty on the planet will disagree, especially the abusers themselves.

For each of us though, we individually have to decide when we have had enough abuse of whatever kind, or simple dissatisfaction and unhappiness. It is personal, and we should try to refrain from judging others decisions.
So the question becomes: for any person's religious beliefs, what will benefit them the most? will they meet more of their needs by staying married, or can they change those personal beliefs to include divorce?
Each will do what gives them personally the most satisfaction. If meeting a strict religious belief gives them more personal satisfaction than seeking divorce, then they will stay married.
Some struggle with wanting both the chance to remarry and to meet religious beliefs that dictate divorce is not ok. In the end they can't have it both ways, and will have to choose.

Chris1000101

I’ve been down this road. A part of me is still on it as far as trusting but I think that will always be there. At one time I took vows seriously but have since come to believe they are a Valueless Oath With Shackles.

I tried MC a couple of times but she backed out every time. It does take two and she wasn’t there. As more crap came out of the woodwork, I found the best anger management therapy for me was out in my barn. I had corrugated metal on one side and I would hit baseballs into it, it made for a great bang.

I don’t know that divorce is a fashionable new outfit, I think for many a person’s word doesn’t mean anything today.

Freedom1990

I did a lot of intellectualizing, analyzing, and philosophizing early in my recovery.

It was a coping mechanism, a deflection to dealing with my own emotions.

I was, in essence, effectively cut off from the shoulders down...I lived in my head.