spouse recovery questions

Old 09-27-2012, 09:56 AM
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mry
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spouse recovery questions

My AH and I have been married for 19 years and have 4 kids. For the last 5, the drinking has spiraled although he kept his job. Last year, he began AA, got a sponsor and working the steps. He has been "stuck" on 4 for almost a year. He has relapsed a few times and has been sober for almost 2 months. Since July, sleeping is his new drug. Several days a week, he comes home and sleeps and avoids even speaking to us until the next morning when he leaves for work. For a while I thought he was still drinking, but I'm pretty sure that he is just checking out.

Is this typical? Is it likely to change? He deludes himself in thinking that he is a good parent/husband because he pays the bills. I think about leaving, but while that would work for me, what about my kids? His family has money and thinks his drinking problem is solved. Meanwhile, I'm trying to find insurance because our company dropped me over his license.

Would marriage counseling help?
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:17 AM
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Excessive sleeping could be a sign that he is depressed. Does he see a therapist individually?
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:34 AM
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He's in early recovery, 2 months sober. Marital counseling is not effective and even contra-indicated in early recovery and during active alcoholism. There's a recent thread here about that very topic.

His number 1 priority must be Sobriety, working his program. Yes, he can be fatigued in early recovery. Being tired is a trigger to drink (HALT = Hungry Angry Lonely Tired), so resting is a good idea. Also, interacting with the family may be too much for him at this beginning of early recovery. Resting and sleeping may be a good way of coping for him right now.

Go to Al-Anon meetings - at least six. Work your program hard. Al-Anon suggests we not make any big decisions for the first 6-9 months of OUR recovery in Al-Anon. In the meantime, get your Plan B thought through.

Serenity to you.
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Old 09-27-2012, 11:20 AM
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When my AH quit drinking, it wasn't long till he started the behavior you are seeing.

"Several days a week, he comes home and sleeps and avoids even speaking to us until the next morning when he leaves for work."

I found out he had simply switched his addiction from alcohol to xanax. It works on the brain in the same way as alcohol, but there was no odor, and no hangover.
I knew it was not normal to be able to sleep that many hours, but it took a while before the reason was disclosed- xanax addiction.
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Titanic View Post
He's in early recovery, 2 months sober. Marital counseling is not effective and even contra-indicated in early recovery and during active alcoholism.
I haven't seen this thread you mentioned but what you're saying here isn't 100% true. While it is true that many marriages don't make it through something like this, many do. Please don't say as an absolute that marital counseling is not effective .... Please share your experience.

BTW, 2 months sober is not active alcoholism.
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:37 PM
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Joint marriage counseling is not a good idea initially but seperate counseling would be entirely appropriate... a good counselor well versed in addiction when know when to suggest joint counseling.

As far as the steps I tell people who ask how fast they should do the steps that they should do the steps as fast as they want to get well and then keep doing them on a daily basis!

There is a great weekend retreat that does the steps in a weekend and there is an AA group that is called Back to Basics and they go through the steps in 6 weeks I think.

Then there are other groups that journal and take years!

Doing them quickly as the old timers did and then revisiting them, living them is the best way to live a recovered life in my opinion.
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:50 PM
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This is a good time to remember that we're all unique! :-)

My husband and I started marriage counseling right after this relapse. And I can tell you that I WISH now that we had started this 8 years ago when this addiction reared its head. To say that it's been helpful is an understatement. I went by myself 4 years ago when I left and it was a Godsend. BUT what I love about this, when there are 2 of us there, this therapist can see how I interact with him. How he interacts with me, where we are derailing ourselves and not listening. Or where I am individually stuck in myself. Not soley about us but - me. For me, it's been more effective then going by myself where the therapist has only my word for it and can't watch how I function in the real world.

Personally - I think anything healthy that you can do, is a must. AA, Sober Recovery, Alanon, individual therapy, marriage therapy - do whatever you can. There is no cure for addiction and truthfully - "experts" don't really have a handle on what it is or how to help prevent it. We're all muddling through.

That's my 2 cents! I also think sleeping is a sign of depression. If he'll go to marriage therapy, I would grab it and go!! IF nothing else, you'll have help learning to communicate, you'll have another pair of eyes helping you understand and you may get the clarity YOU need. And that is worth it IMO!!!
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Old 09-27-2012, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by PaperDolls View Post
I haven't seen this thread you mentioned but what you're saying here isn't 100% true. While it is true that many marriages don't make it through something like this, many do. Please don't say as an absolute that marital counseling is not effective .... Please share your experience.

BTW, 2 months sober is not active alcoholism.
Have you tried to get marital counseling during active alcoholism before spouse went to rehab? Different therapists? During rehab? Within the first 90 days? Have you talked to experts in addiction counseling and assessment about the general efficacy of MC (or whether it's actually contraindicated) in early recovery, when the alcoholic's sobriety is the number one priority, or in active ADDICTION (not alcohol abuse, adaptation or experimentation). Who would the "normie" be doing MC with, to solve problems originating at what stage, and based on what "reality" given the alcoholic's blackouts, memory loss, self-deceipt, lying, and projected or transferred blame (which the alcoholic won't tease out altogether - if at all - until a searching and fearless inventory or the like deep into recovery): the person the "normie" fell in love with, the chemically using/abusing person, the person with active addiction, the "dry drunk," or the "RA" (after a year or more of sobriety)? Which problems are purely relational, which are purely alcohol related and which are intertwined? Please share your experience (or any expertise you have obtained) if you wish. I have.

Of course, every general statement or rule has exceptions. One of the guys I sponsor is in marital counseling and making a little progress, but the couple was told that MC may well not work during early recovery. No Need to stop if it's working I said. Both are clear that each one's recovery (AA/Al-Anon) is THE priority though. If there's any conflict, recovery trumps MC. Hope that exception makes it clear that it's not 100%, thus proving your point.

You said "many" marriages do. First, you said nothing at all about whether they did or did not do MC. And MC is the issue at hand. Second, what does "many" mean? Of course, we know that there are marriages that continue on with or without sobriety, and this site is full of those experiences. But that says nothing about whether MC was involved or was effective during active ADDICTION, or early recovery.

And it's obvious I wasn't saying that 2 months sober is active alcoholism. 2 months sober is early recovery, that's all, and every day of sobriety is a blessing!
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Old 09-27-2012, 07:50 PM
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Are you saying that he sleeps from the time he comes home through to the next morning? Or that he sleeps a few hours then avoids the family until bedtime, refusing to interact in any way?

The first could be a medical condition (yes, depression is very possible) or perhaps prescription pill abuse.

The second could be a statement. A passive-aggressive statement. It could be the acting out of alcoholic resentment.

You have 19 years and 4 kids and an alcoholic husband who has made attempts to get sober, and I suggest you do hang in there, and I think for you an individual appointment with a counselor specializing in families of addiction would be very helpful. You mention the insurance problem, but if you have funds for 4-6 appointments it will be very helpful to you. I think a professional opinion is worth 19 years and 4 kids.

Then take it from there.
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Old 09-28-2012, 05:08 AM
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thank you so much for replying.

He does not currently see a therapist, but he has seen 2 different therapists off and on throughout our marriage. He didn't disclose that he was drinking to them and the therapy sessions were often about how I was not a good wife. He has a lot of resentment toward me. This is hard for me to hear from him because he minimizes the effect his drinking has had on our relationship and takes little (no?) responsibility for our problems.

3-4 nights a week, he sleeps from the moment he gets home until we are all in bed. Then he gets up and eats and goes back to bed. Some nights he is awake but even then, it is like walking on eggshells with what offends him. This is hard for the kids because they have detached and he wants affection. He yells when upset and overreacts and then is mad when our kids don't want to kiss him good night because he has yelled at them.

I'm sure part of his sleeping is exhaustion because he has a long commute and difficult job. His sleeping is just so strange - it's very much like passing out.

It is very hard for me to be affectionate to him when he seems so disconnected, both physically with the sleeping but also mentally. Last night, we went to parent teacher meetings and he repeatedly asked each of our son's teachers if our son was mean and let the teachers know that if so, my AH would take care of the situation. He seemed to be totally unaware that we were at the meetings because our son, who is a polite and sweet kid, is struggling in school. If I mention that a child is struggling, he gets angry that I'm playing the "drinking card."

Would I be better off with Al-anon or individual counseling?
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Old 09-28-2012, 05:46 AM
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^^in my opinion...the reason he is STUCK on step four is because he is hiding something...something so shamefull that he cant make amends for...and for that, he needs to be HONEST in his program to KEEP SOBER....

yes seeing a therapist will help, but nothing will work until he deals with his shame and guilt of some PAST issues...then, LET GO AND LET GOD...

my 2 cents


al anon for you will work wonders...isnt it time to think about you for a change?
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Old 09-28-2012, 05:47 AM
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I would strongly recommend both Al-Anon and individual counseling.

EG is right, the individual counseling with an addiction specialist will be well worth it. You also can ask that counselor what he/she thinks about the efficacy or wisdom of MC during your H's active alcoholic addiction, or early recovery (eventually, I hope)!

Have you participated with your H in MC before? If so, do you have a good history of progress in MC? You said this:

He has a lot of resentment toward me. This is hard for me to hear from him because he minimizes the effect his drinking has had on our relationship and takes little (no?) responsibility for our problems.
The denial, minimizing problems, not taking responsibility, and resentments are all things that I believe an alcoholic must tackle in recovery, and in order to recover. That is the basic work involved AA Steps 1-4 (setting the Higher Power part aside for the moment). That is the business of recovery. It is an inside job that the A must decide to do and actually do for himself. The A, not you. The A, not a MC. The rehab centers assign chemical dependency counselors to the alcoholics and addicts for recovery purposes ... not marriage counselors. That's my experience.
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Old 09-28-2012, 06:01 AM
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Interesting discussion about the value of marriage counselling in early recovery. My husband has been in rehab for exactly a month now. He started Aug 28th and still has about another two months to go. We are scheduled to have our first two-on-one counselling session with a therapist at the rehab center on Friday, October 12. And then every Friday after that we will be participating in a partner program at the rehab center which consists of group counselling with other couples (where one partner of each couple is currently at the rehab center), seminars, and more two-on-one sessions.

Obviously, the experts at this rehab center do believe that couples counselling can be valuable during early recovery. Time will tell if they are right or if it is all a waste of time. But I have agreed to participate and am going into it with an open mind.
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Old 09-28-2012, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by mry View Post
thank you so much for replying.

He does not currently see a therapist, but he has seen 2 different therapists off and on throughout our marriage. He didn't disclose that he was drinking to them and the therapy sessions were often about how I was not a good wife. He has a lot of resentment toward me. This is hard for me to hear from him because he minimizes the effect his drinking has had on our relationship and takes little (no?) responsibility for our problems.
I don't know this for sure--but it sounds like your H was raised in a very rigid and black/white thinking home. He is still very far away from understanding the role he has played.
3-4 nights a week, he sleeps from the moment he gets home until we are all in bed. Then he gets up and eats and goes back to bed. Some nights he is awake but even then, it is like walking on eggshells with what offends him. This is hard for the kids because they have detached and he wants affection. He yells when upset and overreacts and then is mad when our kids don't want to kiss him good night because he has yelled at them.

He wants affection from the kids without having earned intimacy with them? Again, this reminds me of a rigid upbringing. Kids must love their father because he is their father, they must look up to him and want his approval, no other reason necessary except that he is their father. Let me guess--that is how he was raised, and his father was upset if he any conditions to his love for his father.
Love isn't automatic because a father pays for food and shelter, and his genes are in the children. This may be difficult for your H to understand that in real relationships, there is give and take, not love via subordination
.

I'm sure part of his sleeping is exhaustion because he has a long commute and difficult job. His sleeping is just so strange - it's very much like passing out.
That's because it is meeting the same need as passing out. He is sleeping as a method of avoidance because he isn't drinking. The sleep is serving the same purpose--to check out of having to form intimate relationships, deal with other people's emotions, and play an active role in the family dynamics. Why should he? His father never did. He simply doesn't know how! He also may not believe that is a father's role, only to stand strong and discipline.

It is very hard for me to be affectionate to him when he seems so disconnected, both physically with the sleeping but also mentally. Last night, we went to parent teacher meetings and he repeatedly asked each of our son's teachers if our son was mean and let the teachers know that if so, my AH would take care of the situation. He seemed to be totally unaware that we were at the meetings because our son, who is a polite and sweet kid, is struggling in school. If I mention that a child is struggling, he gets angry that I'm playing the "drinking card."
There's the tough guy father again. His father was very judgmental and distant and tough, wasn't he? Now he is repeating that behavior by announcing that he will squash any "meanness" in your children to the teachers, and yet does not address the struggling aspect. He is more concerned his children are behaving under his rigid rules of conduct than he is in addressing their needs.
There's the problem with his father. No doubt his father had rigid roles of conduct and never addressed your husband's emotional needs. Your Husband needs to address his issues and rigid thinking that he is stuck in repeating what he learned from his father.


Would I be better off with Al-anon or individual counseling?
Grab anything you can. Al-anon and counseling would be ideal, marriage counseling and individual counseling. Especially for your H, he needs it more than you do, although you could certainly benefit from the understanding ear, relieving some of your stress.
I tried to italicize my parts but somehow it didn't work--you will have to discern which sentences are mine, sorry.
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Old 09-28-2012, 07:34 AM
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Madeofglass, you are right on in all that you said about my AH and his father. Here's another tricky part of the equation = my AH and his father work together in the same business/office so they see each other every day. My AH is always kind and thoughtful to his father and often just plain rude to me and our kids.

titanic, I have participated in MC with him - even before we married because he was abused as a child and I was concerned about how he had dealt with it. fourmaggie, i'm sure some of his shame stems from that.

thank you all for your insights. I need to have a place to talk about this and a counselor would really help me.
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Old 09-28-2012, 08:02 AM
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Yes...a counselor will help you sort through your husband's childhood abuse, that it is not about you nor your children being bad...that it is him repeating the same thinking. Your husband is stuck and has never processed it nor learned the new skills to be different. See, some of this is simple skill building, learning a new way of being a father himself. Your husband would greatly benefit from individual counseling addressing these issues.
Was the father the abuser when he was a child?
If so, your husband's denial is huge to work with this man now...no wonder he drinks...he has never faced the anger at the father who is the role model.
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Old 09-28-2012, 08:32 AM
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No, his father was not the abuser. It was a friend of my AH's older brother. My AH didn't tell anyone until he was an adult. When he did tell, it was just about ignored. The counseling throughout our marriage was supposed to address the abuse and his feeling about it.

How does one find a counselor who is skilled in dealing with alcoholic families?
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:25 AM
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You can call treatment centers for recommendations. There are addiction counselors that also are skilled marriage counselors. Not an easy combination to find, but not impossible either.
You can also google addiction marriage counselor for your area, either town or county.

WHO ignored the abuse when he did tell? This callous person(s) might be key....
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:52 AM
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Hypatia, I wish you the best! Keep us posted on how it goes. I suspect that what the rehab center offers is part and parcel of its family program, rather than marital counseling as people normally understand the latter. At family programs, they address how to deal with the alcoholism issues. So, things like boundaries, enabling, detachment, letting go, live and let live, what impact the alcoholism has had on the family, what to expect from rehab, what to do after rehab (e.g., Al-Anon meetings for you; AA for him), etc. While some of those tools can help the marriage, they are given to family members who participate - whether they be a child, parent, sibling, other relative or spouse of the alcoholic/addict. It's about substance abuse and alcoholism treatment for the A and the A's family, not about the typical marriage counseling issues. Insurance coverage impacts that distinction too.

If, indeed, it turns out to be run-of-the-mill marital counseling I'd happily stand corrected because I would love for that to be offered to couples if it would be effective in active addiction, rehab or early recovery.

Hopefully, mry, your H will get therapy for the abuse issues, and you will be able to get individual counseling. I agree with MadeOfGlass' suggestions to you.
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Old 09-28-2012, 10:07 AM
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If you have limited time and you have to choose where to invest it, I believe it should be individual counseling. Al-Anon is too slow, too much an unfolding awareness over time (remember, it is a spiritual program and does not address solving specific concerns during the meetings). Your situation is too acute, too intense. Your husband has your children in a state of terror and shame, he has you wound to the point of breakdown, and the tension is rising. Something is terribly wrong and I think you need a professional.

As suggested, you can call a local treatment center for recommendations or you could even call your family doctor and ask him or her to refer you to a counselor specializing in families with addiction. (Even though you are temporarily without insurance, if you have a family doctor, the office should be able to assist you in locating a counselor).

Al-Anon will be very good for the long term. But short term, you need some serious professional help. Counseling is also, of course, a long-term commitment for many people (I've been working with a therapist for 6 years). But people also consult counselors for specific advice about what to do in times of acute crisis. You are just lost right now. Your children are suffering. Please get some advice from a professional.
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