Devastated. He broke up with me last night (A Novel)
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Devastated. He broke up with me last night (A Novel)
I posted last week about the recent turmoil with SABF who is about 80 days sober and still living in a sober transitional house after 5 weeks of residential rehab and detox. For the past few weeks things have been like a dream, he has seemed so healthy and solid and we've had conversations about how to move forward in light of the changes in his life. He came over to the apartment on Tuesday, cooked a lovely dinner and then had to leave to get back by his curfew. We had talked about hanging out on Wed, Frid and then last weekend was supposed to be his first overnight pass, so we were going to hang out together and sleep in the apartment for the first time.
The next day he 'disappeared'. Didn't respond to my text asking if he was still available to hang out that day. I went to bed crying. On Thursday morning he sent a text saying that he was in a deep funk, apologized for not calling and said he would call that night. He never called. Thursday night, I flipped out and sent him a text saying that I didn't know what to do, that I couldn't believe he was ignoring me. Since we were going to spend the weekend together, I wrote that maybe I would just go home to NY. No response to that message and then Friday no response either.
Friday I spent miserably depressed. The silent treatment is just the cruelest thing. I felt erased. On Friday night, I decided I couldn't take it anymore living there and feeling tormented by whatever was going on so I decided to buy a train ticket to leave for NY on Saturday afternoon.
On Saturday morning, as I was packing to leave, he sent me a text saying that he would be coming over to the apartment that day after his AA meeting. He apologized for not communicating.
I wrote back to say that I would not be around since I was going to NY. Since then there have been minimal communications via email: he sent an email late saturday night asking when I would be back, then one on Monday saying that he wished me a safe trip back and said he hoped to see me on Wednesday. I didn't respond.
Instead, I went to Alanon, and therapy. I started researching alternative apartments. I can't live like this--dependent on someone who has shown himself to be completely untrustworthy. But my heart is breaking. But I have been in a very dark place. Feeling like my hopes and dreams were being ripped away with no warning. I've been crying throughout the day and finding it impossible to work.
Yesterday Wednesday he wrote again to say he would like to come over on Wednesday night to talk. I thought about it and decided there would no benefit to delaying this conversation further.
I didn't know what to expect. I feared that he would break up with me, given the silence of the last week which was a complete turnabout from last week. But since our relationship began, he has been the one pushing for more commitment, pushing through my doubts, arguing that this would be a serious long term relationship. I don't think he was insincere. I believed him, I was in love with him, and the good parts were so good, that I gave up my apartment in the spring and moved in here.
So...last night he arrived to talk. There was no real discussion. It was a unilateral pronouncement. He held me and said that this was the hardest thing to say, but that he has realized that he just couldn't do this. Short version of the turmoil of last week was that a good young friend had died suddenly and it threw him into a tailspin, which brought him so close to drinking. That's when he went undercover. He talked to the staff there and got through it without drinking. But the whole experience made him realize he is much more f'ed up than he had thought, that he was so close from a drink, and that he is just starting all this. I think this was the first major close call since going into treatment.
He started crying and said the experience made him realize that he just cannot be a partner or a good boyfriend right now. That he wanted to, and that he could if he would. That he cannot do the things that will make me happy, or even the things that he would like to be or do as a boyfriend. He said he desperately wanted to be a good partner and if he could he would, but he is just exhausted dealing with himself day to day and realized he is much closer to the edge than he knew. He said he felt like an *******. He also said that he realized how very much he was losing in losing me.
I cried too. I asked if I felt like a burden to him, and he said no, that I had been great. But clearly it seems to me he must feel that I am a burden, because he suddenly can't pick up the phone and doesn't want to connect. Talking to me is not a comfort I suppose.
I also said I supported him so much in what he was trying to do to improve his life and was proud of him for getting through this rough spot without picking up.
Yet I told him that this was felt so unfair. First that the silent treatment was the cruelest thing you could do. And more generally, that I feel deceived. I had stuck by him through all the bad times because I could see the potential in him and us and now that he was taking steps to work on himself, I was willing to do whatever it took to help him through this period. Even if it meant backing off.
The reason we had ended up in such a committed relationship in less than a year was that I had happily allowed myself to believe his convincing words that he was ready to commit to me. It was really a campaign to lock me down. And this summer he was not expressing any doubt about us and arguing that we could support each other.
Even last week he was talking about couples therapy and how he could be a better partner to me. And now it's a complete 180. Everything has collapsed in the last week and now there is nothing.
He had to leave around 9pm to get back to the sober house. I was crying and then he just let himself out of the door. I went after him and asked, were you actually going to leave without saying goodbye? He said that he was standing there because this conversation didn't feel over but he didn't know what to do. I said, well this doesn't have to be the last conversation. And there was silence. Then he repeated, well I cannot be your partner. And I said ok, but does that mean you don't ever want to speak to me again? And he said, no, that he wants to know me and that he cares about me a lot.
Then he said he would call me tomorrow (today). I almost laughed and said, I don't believe anything you say. And he said, no, no I will. Then he left.
So that's it. I have poured everything I have into this relationship. I had just reopened my heart in the last weeks. Now I feel so cheated and abandoned and rejected. I feel bereft.
I spent the rest of the night crying on the phone to friends. Now woke up to a sick feeling of loss. I love being in a couple, I never felt such electricity or comfort with anyone. And the hope was just beginning to blossom that things were turning a corner and my sticking it out would be rewarded.
Now he doesn't want me at all. He doesn't even want to say in the future. It's like being stabbed. I bitterly said that i am sure that his whole treatment team has encouraged him to break up with me. He said that's not true.
So now I need to start looking for my own place. My heart is so not in it. I don't want to live alone. I lived alone with roommates for so long.As long as I am still living here, we still have some formal connection. Our his and her sinks. Our dual closets. I had just changed my address to get my mail here.
Coping with heartbreak is a minute by minute endeavor. So I will see how i can put together a day of coping. I feel gutted.
The next day he 'disappeared'. Didn't respond to my text asking if he was still available to hang out that day. I went to bed crying. On Thursday morning he sent a text saying that he was in a deep funk, apologized for not calling and said he would call that night. He never called. Thursday night, I flipped out and sent him a text saying that I didn't know what to do, that I couldn't believe he was ignoring me. Since we were going to spend the weekend together, I wrote that maybe I would just go home to NY. No response to that message and then Friday no response either.
Friday I spent miserably depressed. The silent treatment is just the cruelest thing. I felt erased. On Friday night, I decided I couldn't take it anymore living there and feeling tormented by whatever was going on so I decided to buy a train ticket to leave for NY on Saturday afternoon.
On Saturday morning, as I was packing to leave, he sent me a text saying that he would be coming over to the apartment that day after his AA meeting. He apologized for not communicating.
I wrote back to say that I would not be around since I was going to NY. Since then there have been minimal communications via email: he sent an email late saturday night asking when I would be back, then one on Monday saying that he wished me a safe trip back and said he hoped to see me on Wednesday. I didn't respond.
Instead, I went to Alanon, and therapy. I started researching alternative apartments. I can't live like this--dependent on someone who has shown himself to be completely untrustworthy. But my heart is breaking. But I have been in a very dark place. Feeling like my hopes and dreams were being ripped away with no warning. I've been crying throughout the day and finding it impossible to work.
Yesterday Wednesday he wrote again to say he would like to come over on Wednesday night to talk. I thought about it and decided there would no benefit to delaying this conversation further.
I didn't know what to expect. I feared that he would break up with me, given the silence of the last week which was a complete turnabout from last week. But since our relationship began, he has been the one pushing for more commitment, pushing through my doubts, arguing that this would be a serious long term relationship. I don't think he was insincere. I believed him, I was in love with him, and the good parts were so good, that I gave up my apartment in the spring and moved in here.
So...last night he arrived to talk. There was no real discussion. It was a unilateral pronouncement. He held me and said that this was the hardest thing to say, but that he has realized that he just couldn't do this. Short version of the turmoil of last week was that a good young friend had died suddenly and it threw him into a tailspin, which brought him so close to drinking. That's when he went undercover. He talked to the staff there and got through it without drinking. But the whole experience made him realize he is much more f'ed up than he had thought, that he was so close from a drink, and that he is just starting all this. I think this was the first major close call since going into treatment.
He started crying and said the experience made him realize that he just cannot be a partner or a good boyfriend right now. That he wanted to, and that he could if he would. That he cannot do the things that will make me happy, or even the things that he would like to be or do as a boyfriend. He said he desperately wanted to be a good partner and if he could he would, but he is just exhausted dealing with himself day to day and realized he is much closer to the edge than he knew. He said he felt like an *******. He also said that he realized how very much he was losing in losing me.
I cried too. I asked if I felt like a burden to him, and he said no, that I had been great. But clearly it seems to me he must feel that I am a burden, because he suddenly can't pick up the phone and doesn't want to connect. Talking to me is not a comfort I suppose.
I also said I supported him so much in what he was trying to do to improve his life and was proud of him for getting through this rough spot without picking up.
Yet I told him that this was felt so unfair. First that the silent treatment was the cruelest thing you could do. And more generally, that I feel deceived. I had stuck by him through all the bad times because I could see the potential in him and us and now that he was taking steps to work on himself, I was willing to do whatever it took to help him through this period. Even if it meant backing off.
The reason we had ended up in such a committed relationship in less than a year was that I had happily allowed myself to believe his convincing words that he was ready to commit to me. It was really a campaign to lock me down. And this summer he was not expressing any doubt about us and arguing that we could support each other.
Even last week he was talking about couples therapy and how he could be a better partner to me. And now it's a complete 180. Everything has collapsed in the last week and now there is nothing.
He had to leave around 9pm to get back to the sober house. I was crying and then he just let himself out of the door. I went after him and asked, were you actually going to leave without saying goodbye? He said that he was standing there because this conversation didn't feel over but he didn't know what to do. I said, well this doesn't have to be the last conversation. And there was silence. Then he repeated, well I cannot be your partner. And I said ok, but does that mean you don't ever want to speak to me again? And he said, no, that he wants to know me and that he cares about me a lot.
Then he said he would call me tomorrow (today). I almost laughed and said, I don't believe anything you say. And he said, no, no I will. Then he left.
So that's it. I have poured everything I have into this relationship. I had just reopened my heart in the last weeks. Now I feel so cheated and abandoned and rejected. I feel bereft.
I spent the rest of the night crying on the phone to friends. Now woke up to a sick feeling of loss. I love being in a couple, I never felt such electricity or comfort with anyone. And the hope was just beginning to blossom that things were turning a corner and my sticking it out would be rewarded.
Now he doesn't want me at all. He doesn't even want to say in the future. It's like being stabbed. I bitterly said that i am sure that his whole treatment team has encouraged him to break up with me. He said that's not true.
So now I need to start looking for my own place. My heart is so not in it. I don't want to live alone. I lived alone with roommates for so long.As long as I am still living here, we still have some formal connection. Our his and her sinks. Our dual closets. I had just changed my address to get my mail here.
Coping with heartbreak is a minute by minute endeavor. So I will see how i can put together a day of coping. I feel gutted.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 2,899
He's doing what he needs to do to stay sober, which includes setting boundaries about his relationships. That's out of your control. What's in your control is how you react to this situation.
You didn't cause his problems, you can't sure them, and you can't control them.
Neither can he MAKE you feel safe, happy, and secure in your life. That comes from you, FOR you.
I wish you luck. Break-ups suck regardless of the circumstances.
You didn't cause his problems, you can't sure them, and you can't control them.
Neither can he MAKE you feel safe, happy, and secure in your life. That comes from you, FOR you.
I wish you luck. Break-ups suck regardless of the circumstances.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
My very good friend who has many, many years in the program told me recently that whenever anyone tells you his hopes, dreams and wishes, you have to pretend you are Missouri. The SHOW ME state. So, this time I've learned that I have to have enough self-control to prevent a new relationship from moving too quickly. And I have to work on boundary-setting enough that I do not allow a new person to move too quickly.
And Mama Gena says that we women have to KNOW, VERY SPECIFICALLY, what we want and where we want to go. And we have to be the one who drives the bus
. That if you let a man drive the bus, it is not going to turn out well. And I believe her. Because after watching my many brothers all my life, and decades of experience with about 10 boyfriends so far, I can tell you for certain that turning the wheel of my life over to any man has always resulted in disaster for me.
And Mama Gena says that we women have to KNOW, VERY SPECIFICALLY, what we want and where we want to go. And we have to be the one who drives the bus
. That if you let a man drive the bus, it is not going to turn out well. And I believe her. Because after watching my many brothers all my life, and decades of experience with about 10 boyfriends so far, I can tell you for certain that turning the wheel of my life over to any man has always resulted in disaster for me.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: rural Germany
Posts: 311
I'm very sorry that you are feeling so hurt. This is a really rough time for both of you.
I started writing a response, and then realised that I'd pretty much said it all before in a previous post to you. So instead of repeating it, here's the link to the other thread:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post3587630
I started writing a response, and then realised that I'd pretty much said it all before in a previous post to you. So instead of repeating it, here's the link to the other thread:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post3587630
Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 209
First off, I'm sorry you're hurting so badly..I've been there, as most of us here have, at one point or another.
Right now, the most important thing for him is his recovery.
MOST alcoholics (in recovery or not) make terrible relationship partners.
They are selfish, liars (this seems to come easily to them) and unable to truly care about another person. They draw you in, use you up and then spit you out. This is usually the repeat cycle, as long as we allow it.
You won't realize it right now (or maybe never) but he actually did you a HUGE favor by breaking up with you.
Allow yourself to grieve (it is a loss) and then pick yourself up and carry on.
Go to Alanon.
Most of us here know the pain you're feeling, and it sucks......
Right now, the most important thing for him is his recovery.
MOST alcoholics (in recovery or not) make terrible relationship partners.
They are selfish, liars (this seems to come easily to them) and unable to truly care about another person. They draw you in, use you up and then spit you out. This is usually the repeat cycle, as long as we allow it.
You won't realize it right now (or maybe never) but he actually did you a HUGE favor by breaking up with you.
Allow yourself to grieve (it is a loss) and then pick yourself up and carry on.
Go to Alanon.
Most of us here know the pain you're feeling, and it sucks......
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: new moon road
Posts: 1,545
I just want to say how terribly sorry I am for your devastation. Being blindsided by an addict is a very common experience among us, and I can tell you that I have sat with many recovering friends brought down in just the way you describe. I have also known many who suffered the periods of silence you describe before the final blow. These women also used your same words, about the addict being so crazy in love with them, wanting to be with them for life, making plans for the future, and many promises. And for many of them this was happening right up to almost the minute the addict suddenly turned. Disappeared. Days of silence. Back in touch. And it's over. And this FLIP from very hot to very cold is almost overwhelming to the psyche. I believe it is so much easier to recover from a relationship which has been disintegrating over time, many arguments, many apparent unsolvable problems, all of which lead to a break-up, than it is to recover from one which has been like yours, with its sudden plummet from happiness to hell.
Although some people in your life may feel that he is just protecting his sobriety and doing what is necessary for his recovery, I have to say that as you described his words to you about all that, I didn't believe them. My experience of addicts is they spin a good story to inflate themselves when they want to avoid someone, especially when they have hidden selfish agendas. And nothing sounds more "noble" than "I have to devote myself entirely to my recovery and can't see you anymore." The addict gets to look good, the partner is in the most subtle way brought down as "toxic" to him, he keeps complete control (very important to an addict), and she reels from shock and feelings of desperation because nothing she says impacts him or the situation. This is a common scenario.
And I also have to say that what I have seen happen almost always is that in due time, he's back, he's feeling miserable about what he did, he wants to get together to talk, etc etc, and he reels her right back in. Then he eventually leaves her cold again.
The craziness in all this is so hard to handle for any of us because the addict simply looks fine. He is all cleaned up, he speaks with all the right rational language, he refers to his "program", his "fellowship", his "counselor" as a kind of unassailable committee to prohibit anyone questioning what is really going on and what he really wants and what he's really hiding.
The stunned and devastated partner feels outvoted and even condemned by majority rule. And she never saw this coming.
I do not know your history with him and of course none of the details of his life or very brief sobriety. (The alcohol has only just barely completely left his system, by the way).
What I can tell you is this is a common pattern in relationships with addicts of all kinds--alcohol and drugs--and I hope you can in some way find solace in that. It is a sick pattern. It gives the addict a lot of power. And further deflates the self-worth of the partner, who has already been weakened by the rollercoaster of addiction.
You should not believe anything he told you nor anything he says if he gets back in touch. As others said, addicts are liars and manipulators and he still operates with an addict brain today, not with a brain that has two years or more of hard-won recovery.
You feel crazy, maybe desperate and maybe hopeless, and that is a normal reaction, but it is temporary. Ride this out. He is not as powerful as you think he is. And you are much more powerful than you think you are.
His disease wants you to doubt yourself. It feeds on destruction. It wants you to crumble.
Do not give it the satisfaction. After you have cried for awhile, and leaned on friends and family to pull you through the first hard week or two or three, then you will be able to straighten your shoulders more and more every day and you will see with clearer eyes what has been really going on to cause you so much pain. And you will, I hope, set your jaw and say to yourself, "Never again. Never again will a weak unstable manipulative man bring me to my knees again. I am better than that. Never again."
Gather all your recovery tools and come out of this better than ever. Let it make you stronger and more centered. Let it help you examine who you are and your bottom line for relationship. Resolve that this will not rob you of your faith nor your mission in life. You have a high purpose, you were born with a high purpose, and it is your job to discover what that is. I can tell you, it certainly is not to be in the crosshairs of a sick man's acting out.
Recovery for anyone does take focus, it does take time and commitment. And a couple who can mutually--mutually--come to an agreement about how best to get well--each of them individually--while sustaining some connection and commitment is the appropriate path. The addict does not get to call all the shots. The addict does not get to be the one who matters most. Both persons matter. The relationship matters. And it should be a mutual and honest and NON-abrupt resolution.
After you have grieved and done all the crying you need to do, we hope we can help you get stronger.
Although some people in your life may feel that he is just protecting his sobriety and doing what is necessary for his recovery, I have to say that as you described his words to you about all that, I didn't believe them. My experience of addicts is they spin a good story to inflate themselves when they want to avoid someone, especially when they have hidden selfish agendas. And nothing sounds more "noble" than "I have to devote myself entirely to my recovery and can't see you anymore." The addict gets to look good, the partner is in the most subtle way brought down as "toxic" to him, he keeps complete control (very important to an addict), and she reels from shock and feelings of desperation because nothing she says impacts him or the situation. This is a common scenario.
And I also have to say that what I have seen happen almost always is that in due time, he's back, he's feeling miserable about what he did, he wants to get together to talk, etc etc, and he reels her right back in. Then he eventually leaves her cold again.
The craziness in all this is so hard to handle for any of us because the addict simply looks fine. He is all cleaned up, he speaks with all the right rational language, he refers to his "program", his "fellowship", his "counselor" as a kind of unassailable committee to prohibit anyone questioning what is really going on and what he really wants and what he's really hiding.
The stunned and devastated partner feels outvoted and even condemned by majority rule. And she never saw this coming.
I do not know your history with him and of course none of the details of his life or very brief sobriety. (The alcohol has only just barely completely left his system, by the way).
What I can tell you is this is a common pattern in relationships with addicts of all kinds--alcohol and drugs--and I hope you can in some way find solace in that. It is a sick pattern. It gives the addict a lot of power. And further deflates the self-worth of the partner, who has already been weakened by the rollercoaster of addiction.
You should not believe anything he told you nor anything he says if he gets back in touch. As others said, addicts are liars and manipulators and he still operates with an addict brain today, not with a brain that has two years or more of hard-won recovery.
You feel crazy, maybe desperate and maybe hopeless, and that is a normal reaction, but it is temporary. Ride this out. He is not as powerful as you think he is. And you are much more powerful than you think you are.
His disease wants you to doubt yourself. It feeds on destruction. It wants you to crumble.
Do not give it the satisfaction. After you have cried for awhile, and leaned on friends and family to pull you through the first hard week or two or three, then you will be able to straighten your shoulders more and more every day and you will see with clearer eyes what has been really going on to cause you so much pain. And you will, I hope, set your jaw and say to yourself, "Never again. Never again will a weak unstable manipulative man bring me to my knees again. I am better than that. Never again."
Gather all your recovery tools and come out of this better than ever. Let it make you stronger and more centered. Let it help you examine who you are and your bottom line for relationship. Resolve that this will not rob you of your faith nor your mission in life. You have a high purpose, you were born with a high purpose, and it is your job to discover what that is. I can tell you, it certainly is not to be in the crosshairs of a sick man's acting out.
Recovery for anyone does take focus, it does take time and commitment. And a couple who can mutually--mutually--come to an agreement about how best to get well--each of them individually--while sustaining some connection and commitment is the appropriate path. The addict does not get to call all the shots. The addict does not get to be the one who matters most. Both persons matter. The relationship matters. And it should be a mutual and honest and NON-abrupt resolution.
After you have grieved and done all the crying you need to do, we hope we can help you get stronger.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 4,719
Well, I can't say it any better than EG above, so let me just say I am sorry for your pain. I understand how it feels to be blindsided and dumped. But listen to him this time. And take what he says at face value. He can't be what you want or need, so let him go.
It hurts and will continue hurting for a while, but with time, the pain fades and rational thought sets in, and like me and many others here, you'll end up feeling grateful and relieved to have avoided what could have been a life time of addiction-fueled drama.
Prayers for peace,
~T
It hurts and will continue hurting for a while, but with time, the pain fades and rational thought sets in, and like me and many others here, you'll end up feeling grateful and relieved to have avoided what could have been a life time of addiction-fueled drama.
Prayers for peace,
~T
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 43
Unfortunately, I can't offer any words of wisdom because I am currently going through the same thing with my wife. She's been out of rehab for almost two weeks and decided to move to Reno with her dad for a while, and I haven't heard from her since. I'm trying to give her the space she needs, but I asked that she at least call me once in a while to keep the lines of communication open. So far, nothing. I'm pretty sure it's over.
EG provided a ton of helpful advice and words of encouragement. I think she nailed it right on the head with the following:
Recovery for anyone does take focus, it does take time and commitment. And a couple who can mutually--mutually--come to an agreement about how best to get well--each of them individually--while sustaining some connection and commitment is the appropriate path. The addict does not get to call all the shots. The addict does not get to be the one who matters most. Both persons matter. The relationship matters. And it should be a mutual and honest and NON-abrupt resolution.
Unfortunately for you and I, we weren't included in this decision making process. If I can be of any help to you, I offer the following: I've started going to Al-Anon, read threads on this site everyday, and I am mentally and emotionally preparing myself for a life without my wife. I'm trying to think rationally without making any rash decisions until I've thought them through thoroughly, and let some time pass to see what may happen in the very near future. The most important thing is to take care of yourself and, though it is much easier to say than to believe, try and think this could be for the best. So many people on SR have shared how they wish they broke free from their A when they had the chance, and how much better they are off once they finally did. It's hard to think and accept right now, and I still haven't been able to at this early stage, but I feel like I'm getting closer.
I feel for you. Just take care of yourself and try and think about the positives (when you can). Keep posting and you will be showered with support and encouragement.
EG provided a ton of helpful advice and words of encouragement. I think she nailed it right on the head with the following:
Recovery for anyone does take focus, it does take time and commitment. And a couple who can mutually--mutually--come to an agreement about how best to get well--each of them individually--while sustaining some connection and commitment is the appropriate path. The addict does not get to call all the shots. The addict does not get to be the one who matters most. Both persons matter. The relationship matters. And it should be a mutual and honest and NON-abrupt resolution.
Unfortunately for you and I, we weren't included in this decision making process. If I can be of any help to you, I offer the following: I've started going to Al-Anon, read threads on this site everyday, and I am mentally and emotionally preparing myself for a life without my wife. I'm trying to think rationally without making any rash decisions until I've thought them through thoroughly, and let some time pass to see what may happen in the very near future. The most important thing is to take care of yourself and, though it is much easier to say than to believe, try and think this could be for the best. So many people on SR have shared how they wish they broke free from their A when they had the chance, and how much better they are off once they finally did. It's hard to think and accept right now, and I still haven't been able to at this early stage, but I feel like I'm getting closer.
I feel for you. Just take care of yourself and try and think about the positives (when you can). Keep posting and you will be showered with support and encouragement.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,243
Hi Emerald Sea,
EG and others have given you a great start on how to think about what may be been going on in your relationship and I am going to share a few more thoughts of my own.
With your being a an adult child of an alcoholic it is highly likely that you are subconsciously hard wired to be attracted to this person... as a fellow ACOA I am drawn to alcoholic/addicted men with an obsessive need to emesh myself like a moth to a candle.
Your relationship is new and you are not married...this is a very good thing! He has been an alcoholic from a very young age and has suffered abuse and trauma and he has never experienced sobriety as an adult.
This is very, very ominous for a bad outcome and trust me that he is NOT relationship material! The prognosis is not good and it would be a very, very long time in a very commited, serious, spiritual recovery with intensive counseling that could shine a dim light on a person emerging on the other side becoming a good candidate for a long term committed relationship.
With your background ACOA and obvious obsessive attraction to him and his history you are perfect storm of trouble ahead. If we had a questionaire and software like some of these matchmaking online sites that took these kind of things into consideration you would not be a "match" except a match that was lit being put to gasoline!!!
OK...now let us look at the sick, horrible feelings of being punched in the gut and the devastation you are feeling.
They are chemicals. Your body and mind want us to reconnect to those we have gotten into an emeshed emotional and intimate physical relationship with. Chemicals and hormones are not thinking or logical and can lead us astray. Eventually, not fed by obsessive thinking and deliberate work at forcing our brain and mind to focus on other things these feelings will subside.
This man is right... he has a lot of work to do and it will be a huge miracle if he makes it out of addiction based on his history. His chances are better if he does disengage from your relationship right now and he is doing you a favor by allowing you this chance to work on your own recovery.
If by some incredible miracle he made it to one year and you still had feelings for each other maybe you could look at establishing a friendship again. What kind of person will he be sober?
You don't even know that at this point. He doesn't either! He is in a strange new world that he has never experienced as an adult trying to deal with emotions and feelings that are very alien and uncomfortable to him. He has to grow up as teens that start drinking alcoholically usually do not grow up emotionally.
Some of what I have written may not apply to your situation and I am sharing what I have learned through a lot of my own many mistakes and trying to unravel myself.
In no way are any of us trying to tell you what to do but only sharing our own E,S and H for you to consider as you try to unravel what is best for you. I will also share that we all move at different speeds at acceptance of a lot of what we who have been there accept as truths.
Keep moving forward and read, read, read about addiction, codependency, ACOA, attend some alanon meetings if possible and try to find a great counselor who understands addiction and codependency.
If nothing else... it is better to find this out NOW and not decades later like many women who then have a lifetime invested and children shared.
Time is your friend... more will be revealed. Trust yourself and your HP to find your way... YOUR WAY... not his way. You are worth it and you are sailing the ship of your life and your destiny! He may only be a blip on the radar screen and the Mr. Right with no issues, no addictions may be in your future when YOU are ready for him...
EG and others have given you a great start on how to think about what may be been going on in your relationship and I am going to share a few more thoughts of my own.
With your being a an adult child of an alcoholic it is highly likely that you are subconsciously hard wired to be attracted to this person... as a fellow ACOA I am drawn to alcoholic/addicted men with an obsessive need to emesh myself like a moth to a candle.
Your relationship is new and you are not married...this is a very good thing! He has been an alcoholic from a very young age and has suffered abuse and trauma and he has never experienced sobriety as an adult.
This is very, very ominous for a bad outcome and trust me that he is NOT relationship material! The prognosis is not good and it would be a very, very long time in a very commited, serious, spiritual recovery with intensive counseling that could shine a dim light on a person emerging on the other side becoming a good candidate for a long term committed relationship.
With your background ACOA and obvious obsessive attraction to him and his history you are perfect storm of trouble ahead. If we had a questionaire and software like some of these matchmaking online sites that took these kind of things into consideration you would not be a "match" except a match that was lit being put to gasoline!!!
OK...now let us look at the sick, horrible feelings of being punched in the gut and the devastation you are feeling.
They are chemicals. Your body and mind want us to reconnect to those we have gotten into an emeshed emotional and intimate physical relationship with. Chemicals and hormones are not thinking or logical and can lead us astray. Eventually, not fed by obsessive thinking and deliberate work at forcing our brain and mind to focus on other things these feelings will subside.
This man is right... he has a lot of work to do and it will be a huge miracle if he makes it out of addiction based on his history. His chances are better if he does disengage from your relationship right now and he is doing you a favor by allowing you this chance to work on your own recovery.
If by some incredible miracle he made it to one year and you still had feelings for each other maybe you could look at establishing a friendship again. What kind of person will he be sober?
You don't even know that at this point. He doesn't either! He is in a strange new world that he has never experienced as an adult trying to deal with emotions and feelings that are very alien and uncomfortable to him. He has to grow up as teens that start drinking alcoholically usually do not grow up emotionally.
Some of what I have written may not apply to your situation and I am sharing what I have learned through a lot of my own many mistakes and trying to unravel myself.
In no way are any of us trying to tell you what to do but only sharing our own E,S and H for you to consider as you try to unravel what is best for you. I will also share that we all move at different speeds at acceptance of a lot of what we who have been there accept as truths.
Keep moving forward and read, read, read about addiction, codependency, ACOA, attend some alanon meetings if possible and try to find a great counselor who understands addiction and codependency.
If nothing else... it is better to find this out NOW and not decades later like many women who then have a lifetime invested and children shared.
Time is your friend... more will be revealed. Trust yourself and your HP to find your way... YOUR WAY... not his way. You are worth it and you are sailing the ship of your life and your destiny! He may only be a blip on the radar screen and the Mr. Right with no issues, no addictions may be in your future when YOU are ready for him...
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Hi,
Firstly I am so sorry for all of your pain. I broke up with my A. about 3 months ago and it hurt like he*l for a long time. I was totally devastated. He was an active A. and not even close to treatment. Regardless, he was impossible to be with, always starting arguments and tearing away at my self esteem. We were together for 3 years and he always talked about couple's therapy and wanting to make things work out with me. I was pretty devastated when we broke up.
It's true that your ex needs to focus on himself and what it will take for him to be healthy. That means there isn't going to be anything left over for him to give to you. Beating an addiction is not an easy thing, it will probably take all of his energy if he can even do it.
So I know how you must feel, but it's for the best that you let him go...
Firstly I am so sorry for all of your pain. I broke up with my A. about 3 months ago and it hurt like he*l for a long time. I was totally devastated. He was an active A. and not even close to treatment. Regardless, he was impossible to be with, always starting arguments and tearing away at my self esteem. We were together for 3 years and he always talked about couple's therapy and wanting to make things work out with me. I was pretty devastated when we broke up.
It's true that your ex needs to focus on himself and what it will take for him to be healthy. That means there isn't going to be anything left over for him to give to you. Beating an addiction is not an easy thing, it will probably take all of his energy if he can even do it.
So I know how you must feel, but it's for the best that you let him go...
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Join Date: Mar 2012
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I'm so sorry you are hurting in this way.
EG said so much about the truth of your current situation, and Hope as well.
All the posters here, all of us, know the devastation that active and recovering addicts do, and for some reason some of us continue to want to hold on, knowing that just around the corner is the same chaos, the same knives with their sites on us, the situation with and addict or alcoholic is always tentative at best.
A;s become unhappy, they make terrible terrible decisions, selfishly, cutting us out, not answering phone calls, texts, emails, all of these actions are designed to make us want them more, suffer in silence, we become sicker and sicker, it's an endless cycle to keep us on our toes.
Try not to make any major decisions right now, if you can stay in your current living situation without involvement from him, hold off on moving, it will only increase your grief and confusion, it is always possible for you to make changes there in the future and make that place your sanctuary.
There will be a desire from him to continue contact is my guess, be weary, alcoholics do not know how to be honest with themselves, they certainly can not be honest with you. They take and take , giving is not in their vocabulary, as long as we let them take they will, no matter the consequences on our own health and well being.
You abf, is still an alcoholic, his sobriety is in danger everyday. There is one thing he knows, and that is that he can never drink again, and have you in his life, most often that is the bottom line, his addicted brain is preparing for safe passage to the next drink. You don't need it, it will only set you back.
We are here, we care, please keep posting.
love to you , Katie xo
EG said so much about the truth of your current situation, and Hope as well.
All the posters here, all of us, know the devastation that active and recovering addicts do, and for some reason some of us continue to want to hold on, knowing that just around the corner is the same chaos, the same knives with their sites on us, the situation with and addict or alcoholic is always tentative at best.
A;s become unhappy, they make terrible terrible decisions, selfishly, cutting us out, not answering phone calls, texts, emails, all of these actions are designed to make us want them more, suffer in silence, we become sicker and sicker, it's an endless cycle to keep us on our toes.
Try not to make any major decisions right now, if you can stay in your current living situation without involvement from him, hold off on moving, it will only increase your grief and confusion, it is always possible for you to make changes there in the future and make that place your sanctuary.
There will be a desire from him to continue contact is my guess, be weary, alcoholics do not know how to be honest with themselves, they certainly can not be honest with you. They take and take , giving is not in their vocabulary, as long as we let them take they will, no matter the consequences on our own health and well being.
You abf, is still an alcoholic, his sobriety is in danger everyday. There is one thing he knows, and that is that he can never drink again, and have you in his life, most often that is the bottom line, his addicted brain is preparing for safe passage to the next drink. You don't need it, it will only set you back.
We are here, we care, please keep posting.
love to you , Katie xo
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Originally Posted by EnglishGarden 
Although some people in your life may feel that he is just protecting his sobriety and doing what is necessary for his recovery, I have to say that as you described his words to you about all that, I didn't believe them.
My experience of addicts is they spin a good story to inflate themselves when they want to avoid someone, especially when they have hidden selfish agendas.
And nothing sounds more "noble" than "I have to devote myself entirely to my recovery and can't see you anymore." The addict gets to look good, the partner is in the most subtle way brought down as "toxic" to him, he keeps complete control (very important to an addict), and she reels from shock and feelings of desperation because nothing she says impacts him or the situation. This is a common scenario.
My experience of addicts is they spin a good story to inflate themselves when they want to avoid someone, especially when they have hidden selfish agendas.
And nothing sounds more "noble" than "I have to devote myself entirely to my recovery and can't see you anymore." The addict gets to look good, the partner is in the most subtle way brought down as "toxic" to him, he keeps complete control (very important to an addict), and she reels from shock and feelings of desperation because nothing she says impacts him or the situation. This is a common scenario.
Not believing his words leads me down the path of starting to spin a tale that the truth is that he doesn't love me enough or that I have done something wrong, even though he was always adamant about his commitment. Why else would he give up on us so abruptly? How else can someone blow hot and cold like this?
I am finding it very very hard not to take this personally. He threw away our relationship. Without warning or discussion.
Originally Posted by EnglishGarden
The craziness in all this is so hard to handle for any of us because the addict simply looks fine. He is all cleaned up, he speaks with all the right rational language, he refers to his "program", his "fellowship", his "counselor" as a kind of unassailable committee to prohibit anyone questioning what is really going on and what he really wants and what he's really hiding.
The stunned and devastated partner feels outvoted and even condemned by majority rule. And she never saw this coming.
The stunned and devastated partner feels outvoted and even condemned by majority rule. And she never saw this coming.
When he left after the breakup talk last night, he had to get back for the sober residence's nightly wrapup meeting. I had waves of fresh pain when I imagined the conversation when he related to the group that he had broken up with me. They were all probably congratulating him and patting him on the back for putting himself first. Since I am not the wife, I don't get invited to any sessions. I feel powerless, voiceless and pushed aside. Last year he told me I was the most important person in his life, along with his son.
Originally Posted by EnglishGarden
What I can tell you is this is a common pattern in relationships with addicts of all kinds--alcohol and drugs--and I hope you can in some way find solace in that. It is a sick pattern. It gives the addict a lot of power. And further deflates the self-worth of the partner, who has already been weakened by the rollercoaster of addiction.
You should not believe anything he told you nor anything he says if he gets back in touch.
You should not believe anything he told you nor anything he says if he gets back in touch.
What do I believe? I need to make sense of it in some way.
Originally Posted by EnglishGarden
Aa couple who can mutually--mutually--come to an agreement about how best to get well--each of them individually--while sustaining some connection and commitment is the appropriate path. The addict does not get to call all the shots. The addict does not get to be the one who matters most. Both persons matter. The relationship matters.
Now the rug has been pulled out from under me.
Originally Posted by EnglishGarden
And it should be a mutual and honest and NON-abrupt resolution
It sounded like he considers the two-hour conversation wrapped up the entire scenario--he delivered the message that "he can't be my partner" as he kept saying. So end of story?
At the end, he didnt even respond at first to my suggestion that this doesn't have to be the last conversation. This is ridiculous.
We live together! And we live together because he pushed for it. And now I am supposed to just slink away in the night without protest?
It all makes me feel like a child, like a pawn.
And yes, I feel hopeless, desperate and out of control. The tears haven't stopped. Hopefully, they will soon. Reading all your responses helps so much. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by Hopeworks
With your being a an adult child of an alcoholic it is highly likely that you are subconsciously hard wired to be attracted to this person... as a fellow ACOA I am drawn to alcoholic/addicted men with an obsessive need to emesh myself like a moth to a candle.
...
With your background ACOA and obvious obsessive attraction to him and his history you are perfect storm of trouble ahead. If we had a questionaire and software like some of these matchmaking online sites that took these kind of things into consideration you would not be a "match" except a match that was lit being put to gasoline!!!.
...
With your background ACOA and obvious obsessive attraction to him and his history you are perfect storm of trouble ahead. If we had a questionaire and software like some of these matchmaking online sites that took these kind of things into consideration you would not be a "match" except a match that was lit being put to gasoline!!!.
I was telling my normie friend the other day how when ABF visits the apartment now my stomach still flips every time he opens the freezer door even though I know there is no liquor there. And she just gave me this look of total disbelief and pity and then asked me why I stayed? I felt such shame and such an inability to explain it to her.
I just want to hold on and hold on no matter what. I want to entangle myself and lose myself in the relationship. Having it ripped away feels like death. I know part of this is regular breakup pain, but the logic that it is for the best doesn't seem to fill the void at all. I feel so empty so much of the time, despite objective signs of a full rich life.
The very best thing to come out of this in the last few months is that it got me to go to Alanon regularly and to start reading more. I always acknowledged openly that I had had an alcoholic father, but since he eventually transformed into a peaceful person and got sober, I always felt like it was an experience that was in the past. I no longer am under the illusion that it is in my past.
One of the Alanon meetings I have recently found is an ACOA meeting, which has been helpful for thinking just about me and my reactions to life apart from the current drama with the ABF.
Originally Posted by Hopeworks
OK...now let us look at the sick, horrible feelings of being punched in the gut and the devastation you are feeling.
They are chemicals. Your body and mind want us to reconnect to those we have gotten into an emeshed emotional and intimate physical relationship with. Chemicals and hormones are not thinking or logical and can lead us astray. Eventually, not fed by obsessive thinking and deliberate work at forcing our brain and mind to focus on other things these feelings will subside.
They are chemicals. Your body and mind want us to reconnect to those we have gotten into an emeshed emotional and intimate physical relationship with. Chemicals and hormones are not thinking or logical and can lead us astray. Eventually, not fed by obsessive thinking and deliberate work at forcing our brain and mind to focus on other things these feelings will subside.
Originally Posted by Hopeworks
This man is right... he has a lot of work to do and it will be a huge miracle if he makes it out of addiction based on his history. His chances are better if he does disengage from your relationship right now and he is doing you a favor by allowing you this chance to work on your own recovery.
Originally Posted by Hopeworks
Time is your friend... more will be revealed. Trust yourself and your HP to find your way... YOUR WAY... not his way. You are worth it and you are sailing the ship of your life and your destiny! He may only be a blip on the radar screen and the Mr. Right with no issues, no addictions may be in your future when YOU are ready for him...
Also I don't feel like I am sailing the ship of my life. This is clearly something I need to work on. At least in this domain, I don't feel in control, this relationship has been on his terms and has ended on his terms. I could have ended it earlier, but since I didn't and he now has, I feel stripped of agency and can only react to his decisions. I have to move, no choice. I feel very resentful of that.
Thanks for the good thoughts and warm wishes. Undoubtedly I will return to these posts again and again as sources of inspiration. Right now I just feel sunk in darkness and pain and am having a hard time feeling the light and hope.
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Originally Posted by emeraldsea
So so true. I am obsessed. The funny thing is that we did meet through an online dating site. And from the first email, it was like an intangible, unexplainable fire between us. Our first date became a 48 hour extravaganza. No moderation at all.I saw his drinking from the first, but even that felt familiar. It felt unlike anything else I had ever experienced.
Our minds protect us from those memories but we behave and are attracted to the "normal" of our childhood. As woman we bond with men that remind of our father and the home we equate with stability of what we understand of love. In my case I yearn to capture the love my emotionally unavailable father never gave me.
I am attracted subconsciously to certain types of men... attractive, smart, witty, life of the party and emotionally available and usually alcoholic. It is hardwired.
I am not attracted to stable, kind emotionally available men. There is not enough "fire' (drama, challenge and need to "fix") and at your age I chose to swear off men completely instead of trying how to fix my picker to be attracted to emotionally healthy and available men.
The "fire" is great during the honeymoon but honeymoons end as you are finding out.
You may find that it is a perfect time in your life to go and look at the men who didn't have the "Fire" and figure out if like me... your picker is looking for fires more than the "good guy".
I am not young anymore and I raised my kids and am not looking for Mr. Right anymore (I wasn't looking for Mr. Wrong who took me down a bad path for 4 years!) but....
IF... IF... I could redo anything it would be to focus on being contented with a man who was not necessarily a LIVE WIRE but was solid, sweet, loving and emotionally available. This can be done... through therapy and hard recovery work.
That intense cannot tear away from eachother from the first few minutes is CHEMICALS, PHEREMONES, HORMONES AND A LOT OF OTHER MOANS!!!!!
They are red flags... what can you know about anyone as far as character in the first few minutes, hours, days, months... ?????
Red flags are not party favors... and Mr. Hot Pants is usually not relationship material! Both of my guys were just like that... and I have years of misery because I grabbed that red flag and ran with it.[/QUOTE]
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Originally Posted by Katiekate
You truly do not want the father of your children to be an alcoholic.
I just have never had as serious a relationship before and it seemed like marriage and a family could be in our future. Especially because he said he wanted that. I didn't automatically reject the idea of a recovering alcoholic.
There is still hope for him, I suppose, but I guess I am no longer part of the equation.
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Oh, now I get it. You are upset mostly with yourself.
Back in June you were ready to drop him.
Then once he went for treatment you convinced yourself everything would be great. This is your first really serious relationship and you were already thinking of marriage and children with him.
And now he's dropped you. Double or even triple whammy.
Back in June you were ready to drop him.
Then once he went for treatment you convinced yourself everything would be great. This is your first really serious relationship and you were already thinking of marriage and children with him.
And now he's dropped you. Double or even triple whammy.
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Originally Posted by Katiekate
A;s become unhappy, they make terrible terrible decisions, selfishly, cutting us out, not answering phone calls, texts, emails, all of these actions are designed to make us want them more, suffer in silence, we become sicker and sicker, it's an endless cycle to keep us on our toes.
But are all those actions really designed to make us want them more? To keep us on our toes? Of course that is the impact on us, but I wonder if is it really purposely manipulative in such a direct way? That's an honest question.
Originally Posted by Katiekate
Try not to make any major decisions right now, if you can stay in your current living situation without involvement from him, hold off on moving, it will only increase your grief and confusion, it is always possible for you to make changes there in the future and make that place your sanctuary.
Given his disappearing act, that ability to appear at will causes me anxiety. What almost happened when he announced on Saturday morning via text that he was coming over after three days of silence. When I got that text, I was so relieved that I had already planned to be on my way to NY, so I wouldn't be there. The anxiety of having no control over his comings and goings makes it hard to feel like this is a sanctuary.
But maybe this is something he and I can negotiate. Given that he initiated this breakup, maybe I can say that I want to be able to calmly look for a new place without a feeling of desperation, so I would like to take X weeks to find one. And he should give me warning before he comes over.
Originally Posted by Katiekate
There will be a desire from him to continue contact is my guess, be weary, alcoholics do not know how to be honest with themselves, they certainly can not be honest with you. They take and take, giving is not in their vocabulary, as long as we let them take they will, no matter the consequences on our own health and well being.
We always have had such an easy physical intimacy, even nonsexual, and during our breakup talk last night we were cuddling. And then he clearly began to feel uncomfortable. That was very hurtful.
Given his abrupt departure, it felt last night like he didn't really want to be in touch going forward. I don't know what he wants. I feel like I can't predict anything anymore. But then right before leaving he said would call me tonight. So who knows.
Originally Posted by Katiekate
You abf, is still an alcoholic, his sobriety is in danger everyday. There is one thing he knows, and that is that he can never drink again, and have you in his life, most often that is the bottom line, his addicted brain is preparing for safe passage to the next drink. You don't need it, it will only set you back.
And if he fails in sobriety with me there as his partner and expecting him to succeed, he will feel even worse. And if my happiness with him is also tied to his recovery, which it is as his partner, then he will feels more pressure.
Not to mention that I expect him to be able to think about me and my life, and follow through on plans and return calls. Little things like that.
So he can't tackle sobriety and give me what I need at the same time. Its unclear whether he would ever be able to meet my needs, but for now he clearly can't. Or won't.
He said something similar in the talk last night, but it didn't seem honest. It seemed like a cliched excuse to breakup, along the lines of the classic 'it's not you, it's me'.
Somehow katiekate, putting it like this starts to make sense to me.
Originally Posted by Katiekate
We are here, we care, please keep posting.
love to you , Katie xo
love to you , Katie xo
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Originally Posted by Hypatia
Oh, now I get it. You are upset mostly with yourself.
Back in June you were ready to drop him.
Then once he went for treatment you convinced yourself everything would be great. This is your first really serious relationship and you were already thinking of marriage and children with him.
And now he's dropped you. Double or even triple whammy.
Back in June you were ready to drop him.
Then once he went for treatment you convinced yourself everything would be great. This is your first really serious relationship and you were already thinking of marriage and children with him.
And now he's dropped you. Double or even triple whammy.
I feel very ashamed and humiliated as well as angry. I also feel fooled. And therefore very betrayed and angry at him. Kind of stunned.
I have long endured the lectures from friends about how I should leave him and why i am staying with him, and I always responded that it was such a wonderful relationship in so many ways. His going into treatment felt like such a triumph for us.
I wasn't just weaving this fantasy of marriage and kids out of nothing in my own head. I started believing in that possibility because of what he continually said, because he was absolutely committed to convincing me that that was in the cards for us. I have never had someone do such a hard court press to get me to commit, then to get me to move in etc. He said he would move anywhere with me. We talked about what conditions would need to be in place for us to have kids.
While I had my serious doubts due to his escalating drinking, I stayed in part because I was so in love with him. I ate up his words, because they seemed to offer me what I wanted more than anything.
I really don't think he was lying or insincere. As he said last night, he was not before, but is now being more honest with himself about how screwed up he truly is. Those promises and plans were the expressions of a man in deep denial of his deteriorating condition. I also think he used our relationship as a sign that things must not be so bad with him. Look, he would say to his family when they expressed concern, I have this great girlfriend, so I can't be that bad.
Over the summer, when we talked, he had repeatedly expressed concern I wouldn't want to be in the relationship anymore. I felt like the doubting one and he was the man in love and committed. And in early September, I had expressed doubts about moving back in with him after being away all summer. He convinced me that it made sense to stay in our apartment in part because he wouldn't be there all the time and it would give us a chance to get to know each other again under these new conditions. Even a little over a week ago he felt hurt that I had any doubts at all about the relationship. We can support each other through our issues, he urged.
So based on the visible progress, I have been working to believe more in him and trust more in his progress. All signs pointed to that being a reasonable working belief to hold. He seemed unwavering in his commitment to me. That things were and would continue to get better.
I thought that I would actually be rewarded by waiting things out. That proving my love by staying with him would strengthen our bond. And that a healthy relationship would be the end result.
Now he has done a complete reversal. Not just retreating as I thought was happening last week, but in fact completely and suddenly dropping the relationship. It's like a con-man took over, or the conman was there all along.
It makes me question everything that came before. And it makes me question my own sanity in believing anything he said. I feel like I have whiplash.
I am left with no relationship, not at a time when things were a disaster and it would have normal for me to leave, but just as things have been improving, which feels like a sick paradox. I got nothing from my show of love and commitment, and his words of love and commitment vanished overnight. My trust has been betrayed.
I also feel homeless on top of losing my relationship. I am upset with myself and him for trusting him enough to give up my apartment. Now I am stuck in this place that was set up to be ours, but is still really his. Suddenly I am no longer wanted as a live-in partner here. Yet I have nowhere else to live right now. I have friends to spend a night or two with.
So I am still dependent on him for now. It feels humiliating and it hurts so terribly. Devastating, as I wrote in my initial post.
Triple whammy for sure.
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