Titanic

Just so you can see how far some of us have gotten infected by the FAMILY DISEASE of alcoholism, and the married ones especially - to try to save their marriages. This was given to me after an Al-Anon meeting by a member:

From Melodie Beattie's book, "CODEPENDENT NO MORE" (Hazelden Press):

"Chapter 7 - Set Yourself Free

Let Go and Let God.
– Twelve Step program slogan

People say codependents are controllers.

We nag; lecture; scream; holler; cry; beg; bribe; coerce; hover over; protect; accuse; chase after; run away from; try to talk into; try to talk out of; attempt to induce guilt in; seduce; entrap; check on; demonstrate how much we've been hurt; hurt people in return so they'll know how it feels; threaten to hurt ourselves; whip power plays on; deliver ultimatums to; do things for; refuse to do things for; stomp out on; get even with; whine; vent fury on; act helpless; suffer in loud silence; try to please; lie; do sneaky little things; do sneaky big things; clutch at our hearts and threaten to die; grab our heads and threaten to go crazy; beat on our chests and threaten to kill; enlist the aid of supporters; gauge our words carefully; sleep with; refuse to sleep with; have children with; bargain with; drag to counseling; drag out of counseling; talk mean about; talk mean to; insult; condemn; pray for miracles; pay for miracles; go to places we don't want to go; stay nearby; supervise; dictate; command; complain; write letters about; write letters to; stay home and wait for; go out and look for; call all over looking for; drive down dark alleys at night hoping to see; chase down dark alleys at night hoping to catch; run down alleys at night to get away from; bring home; keep home; lock out; move away from; move with; scold; impress upon; advise; teach lessons to; set straight; insist; give in to; placate; provoke; try to make jealous; try to make afraid; remind; inquire; hint; look through pockets; peek in wallets; search dresser drawers; dig through glove boxes; look in the toilet tank; try to look into the future; search through the past; call relatives about; reason with; settle issues once and for all; settle them again; punish; reward; almost give up on; then try even harder; and a list of other handy maneuvers I've either forgotten or haven't tried yet.

We aren't the people who 'make things happen.' Codependents are the people who consistently, and with a great deal of effort and energy, try to force things to happen.

We control in the name of love.
We do it because we're 'only trying to help.'
We do it because we know best how things should go and how people should behave.
We do it because we're right and they're wrong.
We control because we're afraid not to do it.
We do it because we don't know what else to do.
We do it to stop the pain.
We control because we think we have to.
We control because we don't think.
We control because controlling is all we can think about.

Ultimately we may control because that's the way we've always done things.

Tyrannical and dominating, some rule with an iron hand from a self-appointed throne. They are powerful. They know best. And by God, it will be done this way. They will see to it.

Others do their dirty work undercover. They hide behind a costume of sweetness and niceties, and secretly go about their business—OTHER PEOPLE'S BUSINESS.

Others, sighing and crying, claim inability, proclaim their dependence, announce their overall victimization, and successfully control through weakness. They are so helpless. They need your cooperation so badly. They can't live without it. Sometimes the weak are the most powerful manipulators and controllers. They have learned to tug at the guilt and pity strings of the world.

Many codependents combine tactics, using a variety of methods. Whatever works! (Or, more accurately, whatever doesn't work although we continue to hope it will.)

Despite tactics, the goals remain the same. Make other people do what you want them to. Make them behave as you think they should. Don't let them behave in ways you think they shouldn't, but probably would, without your 'assistance.' Force life's events to unravel and unfold in the manner and at such times as you have designated. Do not let what's happening, or what might happen, occur. Hold on tightly and don't let go. We have written the play, and we will see to it that the actors behave and the scenes unfold exactly as we have decided they should. Never mind that we continue to buck reality. If we charge ahead insistently enough, we can (we believe) stop the flow of life, transform people, and change things to our liking.

We are fooling ourselves." Pages 75 to 77.


And WE sure did. It's called the FAMILY DISEASE of addiction for a reason. Al-Anon and Nar-Anon can help.

Titanic

We need a Codependency sticky on the F&F of Alcoholics forum, don't you think? There are two on the F&F of SAs one. We could then link those here too.

dandylion

Titanic. I second that Emotion!---also a soul song by Smoky Robinson (I think).

dandylion

Titanic

Yay, a Reply! It's "Kind of a Drag" that we have to point newbies to the SA forum.

Yes, you're right about the music!

ShootingStar1

The goals remain the same.... Force life's events to unravel and unfold in the manner and at such times as you have designated. Do not let what's happening, or what might happen, occur....

We have written the play, and we will see to it that the actors behave and the scenes unfold exactly as we have decided they should....

Never mind that we continue to buck reality. If we charge ahead insistently enough, we can (we believe) stop the flow of life, transform people, and change things to our liking.

For me, this passage triggers memories of my childhood in a hugely dysfunctional family. My role was "the sane one" among an alcoholic father, a psychotic mother, and a drug and alcohol addicted out-of-control younger brother. I was also held accountable for producing sane results or making invisible the insane results of the family's interactions and actions.

As you think about it, for a little girl, and then a teenage girl, in that kind of life, what could be better, more desirable, than to be able to prevent the outcomes that kept on coming?

That passage above was probably my unspoken dream. It sure would have been a lot better than what really happened.

So isn't it reasonable that when I grew up, I would want to act out my childhood dream?

I can forgive myself, I can almost poignantly cherish the impulse in me to make life better, more liveable, less painful, that grew from that young girl's despair. Who knew that it would just set me up for more dysfunction?

It was the dysfunctional life that just keeps on giving.

BothSidesNow

WishingWell

Priceless!

I still say we do or did what most humans would do. Who knew that we had to go completely against our instincts? It's not easy road to take but it we learn it, it can help in every relationship in our life.

NWGRITS

These are the things I've been working so hard in therapy to change. I never really considered myself too codependent, until I realized what that word really meant. Thanks for posting this!!!

WishingWell

I just read again the passage Titanic posted >

"Tyrannical and dominating, some rule with an iron hand from a self-appointed throne. They are powerful. They know best. And by God, it will be done this way. They will see to it."

and also

"Others, sighing and crying, claim inability, proclaim their dependence, announce their overall victimization, and successfully control through weakness. They are so helpless. They need your cooperation so badly. They can't live without it. Sometimes the weak are the most powerful manipulators and controllers. They have learned to tug at the guilt and pity strings of the world."

Wow!!! You know we complain about the alcoholics in our lives and yeah, they do give very good reasons to be angry but we're not always so easy to live with either.

I love the part from her book where she talked how at the rehab she worked as a counselor, none of the therapist there wanted to deal with the "co-dependents", they'd much rather deal with the alcoholics! That gave me a good chuckle.

Adding to what I wrote earlier, yes, we have to go against our instincts but I do believe that many of our instincts are not healthy. I just opened her book and could see all the items from her lists of codependent traits that I checked off as doing 7-8 years ago. Last year I read it again and very few of those traits still applied. And guess what - I'm a heck of a lot happier without them. It isn't just the "alcoholic" that many of us have tried to fix - it's everyone. I love it where she says - "When a codependent says "I think I'm getting attached to you," LOOK OUT! He or she probably means it."

Which is why spouses, children, friends of alcoholics are asked to focus on our own growth. Many of us have some serious issues that we need to change. It's an amazing freedom when we do change. I always say that going through my husband's addiction was the best thing that ever happened to me and it is. Why? Because I changed. I become a healthier human being. I'm grateful that I went through this journey - if I hadn't, I doubt that I would've ever faced my own demons.

There is no greater growth, no greater freedom in my opinion than to be able to find happiness in the midst of despair.

NYCDoglvr

I disagree. I've seen instances where a non-alcoholic partner leaves very quickly. They don't want to get sucked into the nightmare of someone else. They see the drunk partner has no interest in them, having a relationship or stop drinking. They get disgusted and can't stand being there one moment longer.

SoaringSpirits

Thanks for posting this. I saw myself in that first long list. I am sooo grateful to be learning to let go, it makes life SO much easier when we just live and don't try to control the outcome of everything --- including our alcoholic.

For years I just saw this as being the traits of a successful, strong-willed woman. Now I see how controlling I could be, both with my AH and even my children. It's such a relief to be letting all that go now.

Titanic

Every active or early recovery A is "terminally unique."

Each of those closest to the A reacts, or sometimes acts, in their own way while living or dealing with that A. That being said, the "codependency" concept captures certain common characteristics.

BlueSkies1

Clarification I think is necessary--some of us don't feel the need to try to control outside of an alcoholic marriage. I don't use these codependency traits on other people in my life, although I may step across my own boundaries into somebody else's business on occasion, just as any person is not perfect about this.
Only immersed or immeshed in a life with an alcoholic did I take on these traits with avengeance and zeal...and boy did I ever.
Which came first chicken or the egg theory...I wasn't a control freak before being married to an alcoholic, and I'm not one outside of that marriage either.

I simply want to make the distinction that it isn't as if we are all people walking around with control issues that just luckily manage to find an alcoholic...marrying an alcoholic a codependent out of you will make!

WishingWell

MadeOfGlass - very good points. We're all different.

Many people though - very unconsciously, do go looking for someone to fix. An alcoholic can fit the bill. Many of us were raised in a family where "fixing" become our "job". The family was dysfunctional and as a young child we took on or were given the roll of being responsible for . . . . fill in the 'dots'. Sometimes that was just trying to make some sanity out of chaos. We felt we had to try to steer the rocking boat . . . a child trying to care for the family when the parent failed to do so. Whether it was emotionally, physically, financially. Our needs went last and maybe they had to. We couldn't really succeed in our effort - but the impression that we "should" can last a lifetime.

As an adult, those kind of people who need us (and even abuse us) can feel very familiar. The square peg fit the square hole. For me it wasn't just those with addictions. "Here's my job, I know exactly what to do, let's get to work." Many people from this family background are in fact much more uncomfortable with people who don't need us . . . . The damaged instinct says - if they don't need us to fix them, then what is our "job"?

It's all very interesting how we humans interact and how we learn, change, grow.

I do really agree that marrying or being born into a relationship with addiction can make a 'co-dependent' out of a majority of people. Until hopefully it doesn't anymore - ?

trublnshangrila

My experience I would say. Even though I was more hurt than disgusted...but I did lose respect for him quickly when he told me he was "hooking up" with "kids" - and he's nearly 40 years old. That creeped me out and I realized I needed to stop the madness and cut contact.

BlueSkies1

I understand this type of relationship, you have explained it very well. Yeah, I don't fit the bill. The dysfunction within my family growing up was that dad was a tyrant, and there was no fixing him...lol at the thought of even trying...you had better not because you will just **** him off royally.
So if you can't fix, and that's not your role, what can you do?
This I have to think about, I don't know what role I played.
I think with my AH I recognized that he was wounded in some way, but I didn't recognize it as alcholism as it was a long-distance relationship, and I was drinking too as a source of amusement, although not alcoholic.
There we go.
If you can't fix, you amuse. I amused dad sometimes. I amused the XAH too...and that was a weakness seeking approval. I felt a great deal of codependency in amusing him. Different role...but that's where dad gave me approval, and that's where XAH gave me approval.

Larger question is--why did I pick someone who was wounded and who also gave me that same approval for amusing him?
I know why. I was repeating the relationship with dad, I sensed the woundedness in XAH and I in a predatory manner latched onto this "woundedness" because it was a vulnerability, I wanted to take the sick puppy home and love it...and I needed approval, needed it too much, in an unhealthy degree.
Not only A's are predatory. Codies are!
Subconsciously we know the games we are getting into.

Titanic

Perhaps it literally felt "familiar" to you MadeOfGlass, and there was a subconscious desire to have a "mulligan," a do over where this time the outcome could be good, "par for the course."

Titanic

Another codependent move and motivation to add to the list:
Nowhere in the Al-Anon literature is there a section on how to make the alcoholic get sober or persuade the alcoholic to go to AA.

Al-Anon is for the person who attends; that person's recovery not the alcoholic's.

Thankfully, there IS a place for US to recover!

SilentScout

I pray to God that I never attract another alcoholic to my life EVER!

They are so destructive to momentum and confidence. I have wasted more energy in the past eight months being distracted by yet another alcoholic's juvenile games that I am exhausted to live the best life I can for myself.

I hope to be the person who can identify an alcoholic and run before they can even say "Hello".

SilentScout

Hi Made of Glass,

I was told by my Alcoholic's therapist that I am co-dependent and need to go to CODA Alanon meetings. My A tells me she says in group that I have control issues. Is it possible to have control issues regarding yourself: environment, routine, general household likes and dislikes but not have control issues when it comes to another person?
If he wants to have dog hair all over his furniture, then I put a towel down before I sit but that doesn't affect him just my clothes. That kind of thing...

BlueSkies1

Hello again silentscout,
Those aren't control issues, those are boundaries, your comfort zones of what you prefer in life.
It's my personal opinion that as soon as someone is connected in a relationship to an A, we are all deemed "codependent" and need therapy, and then you get wack jobs like that shrink that is proclaiming you have control issues. Now just wait a minute...!
Just because you are not comfortable being poolside in a bikini doesn't mean you have control issues, nor not sitting on pet hair. It means you simply don't care for those things. Geesh!
Control issues are when you try to control someone else, not control your environment! As if we are all supposed to never wash our hands in public restrooms or something--hey, it's a control issue right? How about using a napkin? Taking a shower! Hey, they are all things we are trying to control right? Maybe we should all simply let life come at us with whatever it will, and not be adverse to anything, an unlimited comfort zone where we have no qualms about anything. Dirty, mean, rude...so what, relax! Ummm...NOT!
So those are not control issues, they are matters of hygiene and the like. As long as your not over the top washing your hands 50 times a day, then maybe it simply means that you aren't a pig when it comes to hygeine.

Control issues are just that...trying to control another through manipulation, intimidation, coercion, etc. The only place I've seen control issues in what you have posted has been in the alcoholic bf you have, not in you. The best example of his nutcase manipulations has been to tell you that you have a "serious problem" and need to "seek help" when he is the one that just about killed himself with alcohol. Hello! You're sane girl.