A plan I can live with

Old 09-05-2012, 01:10 PM
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A plan I can live with

OK, before anyone says "you should just get away from her and leave" please see my other thread.

There are lots of reasons why I am going to keep trying to make things work with my AW....

For this thread, I am hoping to put together a plan. It won't be perfect but is how I am wired. For those who have stuck with an alcoholic through recovery and have had success i need your help.

So what am I doing:

1. She is committed to AA and has a strong sponsor, she has been working the program for 8 months and had one lapse: She bought a bottle and had about two shots before she did the fingers down throat routine and puked it out. Prior to that a long downward spiral over several years where she functioned well before the wheels came off last year. So rule #1: She needs to stay actively working AA.
2. She and I have individual counselors who are awesome and a MC I am not sure about just yet but getting individual help is an absolute key. Rule #2: She keeps working with her therapist to resolve the triggers and underlying issues.
3. I am going to start Al-Anon. Rule #3: I need to use al-anon, this forum, individual therapy etcetera to keep myself on the right track and avoid enabling and codependency.
4. She is pregnant. If she slips even once while pregnant or with an infant, there needs to be a plan and it needs to be pretty damned black and white. I am favoring getting a medical power of attorney that says I can put her in rehab against her will if she drinks. I believe she will agree to that. Has anyone tried something similar? How hard is it to put someone in against their will and keep them there until the professionals think they are ready to get out? Obviously while she is pregnant I can't go with 'Let her drink if she wants, you can't stop her'

????

So I guess I am trying to figure out a contract with her. A mutual one that spells out our mutual responsibilities and commitments to one another but I don't know what the boundaries should be or the 'consequences'.

I do not want to play cop, I hate that i feel compelled to do that but my son to be, my daughter and I are all at risk if she drinks. How do I stand firm on safety while being loving and supportive and showing her that I am on her side?

I feel as though for my own sanity I need to let her really understand what it was like for me back when she was out of control but maybe that doesn't matter, maybe that is just me rubbing her nose in it?

Maybe "here is what I am afraid of and how it would hurt me" is better as it removes blame and shame. Blame and shame suck and make someone want to rebel and fight back.

Some things I can see putting on our list:

1. She agrees that she will tell me any time she is struggling and I will agree not to reprimand her or otherwise be judgmental or less than loving.

Alternative: She promises to call her sponsor and give sponsor the OK to speed dial me if she ever thinks wife and/or child is in danger.

2. If she does lapse, there is no argument. Whether she confesses to me or sponsor or not, the following will happen: (No idea...)

3. Breathalyzer... she will take one any time I ask and not take it out on me or complain that I am being mean. She is powerless over alcohol and can't be sure she will be honest if she does lapse and I need to know since it would be a risk to our baby. (Should I toss in random drug testing? In the past I've seen her overdo everything from Tylenol PM to Xanax to Ambien)

4. Money: She is not working now. Managing money is an issue for her so I am thinking we go to a card only system where we both have to show every single transaction no matter how small. PITA but makes budgeting easier and helps. Unfortunately she could sit in any bar and get fifteen drink offers and 3 marriage proposals in 15 minutes so this ain't perfect.

5. Location tracking on cell, always available by cell.

6. Share plans and whereabouts. Where are you, who are you with etcetera.



BTW - this is all mutual stuff, I am not and have never been the type who would or woruld want to control someone. In a marriage, no secrets and complete transparency is just a good idea for many reasons as it makes it hard for either party to lead a secret second life or have an affair... be it with a person or a bottle.

My hyperactive and spastic need to figure this out right now is due to my utter shock and disbelief when i found the bottle the other day. No plan is perfect and she is very very good at hiding things despite saying she is completely open. ...that's not fair, she is that way, the alcoholic who shares her brain is cunning and deceitfull and great at slipping out of everything.

I feel like I need to establish a set of boundaries and agreements so that it is black and white, cause and effect, no gray areas, no argument, no more 'well I said I would not do X but technically I did not so did not report it"....

Honesty isn't just telling the truth, it's revealing the truth and making sure that you don't leave your partner walking around with a false impression of ANYTHING.

Anyone know a book or a list or a 'contract with an alcoholic' for someone living with an alcohlic in recovery?

I know it will only be a bandaid, not a cure but right now I don't even have that bandaid and trusting my gut isn't working, I'd like to see a map drawn by thoise who've been down this path successfully.... and will humbly appreciate input from those who tried and failed and said "Yup, here's what I missed" or "Hey, look out for that".

I effing hate this. I just want to be able to love her, be loved back and have a happy family. She is absolutely the right woman, it's the evil twin in her mind that wants a drink that I can't stand.

Thanks for letting me continue to vent and process this guys.... helps me organize my thoughts so that I can be nuts here and the calm, steady, strong rock she needs with her.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:35 PM
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This all sounds great...if she is rational and reasonable. But alcoholism tends to create irrationality, as well as a sense of justice that might find this offensive to her autonomy as a grown up woman able to make her own life choices.

But, you'll never know unless you try it.

If she gets angry, then you have your answer.

Good luck!
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:35 PM
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You walk a hard line, my friend. My thoughts and prayers for your success are definitely paramount.

About the only thing I can say for certain, is that with an alcholic, if you make an ultimatum with them, you need to carry through with it. Even if the alcholic agrees to this stuff when sobor, there's a better than even chance they're spinning you.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:35 PM
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My first thought was there is not a contract or set of rules in the world that will stop an A from drinking, if they choose to do so.
My second thought is do you REALLY want to be in a marriage with the above mentioned "rules"? Location tracking, random breathalyzer tests, etc...
Sounds like a miserable life to me-nothing written on a sheet of paper will make her not drink.
Good luck.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:39 PM
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Oh man, I know you don't want to hear this... but your list reads like mine. Except mine was titled: "All the Habits I Need to Stop".

It was this type of behavior that drove me to distraction with my attempts to control my husband. I fully understand your reasoning & thought process here.... really, I do. But as I read over your proposed contract items I also realize that you are attempting to apply a logical, rational solution to an emotional, illogical situation.

I wish I had better advice, but I found that my best defense was to withdraw all efforts of control. No matter how many fences I put up, it was just more jumping for AH to do, does that make sense? Something like this would never work for us, would make him feel more constrained & build resentments on both sides. Plus, it's literally impossible for me to track another human being 24/7 & stay sane. None of that builds trust which is so important to me in my relationship.

I realize too, that her being pregnant changes things a lot. But I think that beyond policing her activity until she delivers your son, you really have zero chance of making any contract work. If she wants to drink badly enough, she will. If she wants to lie about it, she will. You can't change who she is no matter how many rules you want to enforce.

Again, just my opinion, & I realize it isn't the kind of response you want to hear.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by PohsFriend View Post
I am going to start Al-Anon.
Tonight!

Prayers out to you.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:58 PM
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Bounderies are good, put in place to protect you, however, it is imperative to say what you mean and mean what you say, bounderies not enforced, are only idle threats and are more damaging than not setting any bounderies in the first place.

Control and contracts? I have never seen either tactic work with an "A". She is an adult, not a minor child, IMO your list is nothing but an attempt to resolve her issue by trying to control her. She will rebel, she will outsmart you, addicts are very cunning.

A boundery is clear and concise, cause vrs effect and follow through by the boundery setter.

Just my two cents.
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:12 PM
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The pregnancy is a sticky point and I agree, hard to walk away from that.

My list would look like this.

1) You check into inpatient rehab and stay there until baby is born. That is what - 60 days or so?

Don't even try to guess if she really needs that or not. Any woman that hides/drinks vodka when pregnant needs it. If her story is true and that is the first drink in 8mos and she felt so guilty she puked it up - then she really needs it because she drank it even though she had the alarms going off. She can't control it. From what you shared I find it hard to believe that her first drink wasn't several weeks ago.

2) When she gets out, she works her recovery, you work yours. If you slip - I split and baby stays with me. Try not to micromanage the recovery. Go to marriage counseling if needed.

I mean - I talk a tough talk and all. I should say that is what I would want my plan, and my actions, to look like.

She might not agree to #1 (probably won't). Is there insurance or money for that? If she doesn't I'd consult a lawyer and find out exactly what you can and can't do right now, and when the baby is born.

I start with rehab because I can not imagine any daily contract, police work, big brother tactic, that you and her can engage in that will not completely destroy your relationship. It is not healthy for either of you. Yet there is a baby to think of.

I'm glad you are going to go to alanon.

Take care and keep posting!
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:18 PM
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I pretty much agree with Thumper, but then, you cannot force her into rehab. I agree the pregnancy is the stickie point. I was thinking along the lines of telling her that you will tell her doctor that she has been drinking and then the doctor will be the one to tell her that if she doesn't go to rehab, he will report her to the child welfare office. She won't like it one bit if they get involved.

Again, if it weren't for the pregnancy, I'd be suggesting you detach, go to al-anon (which you should do anyway) and figure out if this is really how you want to live the rest of your life. The baby throws a monkey-wrench in that idea though.
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:18 PM
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I must agree that Thumper's concept is the most practical. The mother remains in a safe, alcohol-free place where the safety of the baby is assured as much as can be. Meanwhile, you get to prepare the nursery and rest up and get ready for baby coming home.

Once the baby is born and in YOUR care, Mom is free to make her own choices and you make yours.

I always prefer to keep things as simple as possible. That old KISS principle.
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:19 PM
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A power of attorney isn't guardianship. You cannot exercise a power of attorney unless the person is incapacitated.
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:31 PM
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I couldn't stand to read the rest of that without it triggering me deeply. But I've taken a few deep breaths and a walk around the house and just want to say..

You, my friend, appear to be deeply enmeshed in her addiction and recovery. You are trying to control things you cannot control. Your relationship is eerily parental in nature and apparently will continue to be.

I have all sorts of thoughts racing in my head.. sort of like a pinball. I "qualify" for something like 10 boards here on SR. I'm an addict, I'm an alcoholic. (as of last weekend, 4 years sober and recovered). I was born from addicts, raised by alcoholics. I've loved many in romantic relationshps and dear friendships. Just wanted to clarify that I'm not coming at this from just one perspective.

She will always be an alcoholic. I'm sure Cyranoak wouldn't mind me throwing his name in here, but listen to him. He is very very wise.

You are trying to control a situation that you have no business in. Yeah, she's pregnant, I get that.. so go to a dr. appt with her and spill the beans, if she was serious about recovery she'd be more than willing to get her ass into a rehab until she delivers. I bet some rehabs would have advice about that. Intensive outpatient services? Something.

This isn't a 'we' thing. You aren't qualified to treat her, to rule her around, or to force her into rehab against her will. As an addict/alcoholic, absolutely nothing besides jail or death could have kept me from using/drinking if I still wanted to. I saw a glimmer of your realization of this powerlessness in your other thread, but then here is like BAM BAM BAM.. alcoholic jail imposed by husband. (it's not going to work this way, and I know you're scared to DEATH about her alcoholism, this baby, this child being raised by a drunk either in recovery or not, your own issues with codependency, which are screaming LOUD AND CLEAR in this thread). It is scary.. this is life and death stuff. This is screw a kid up for life stuff. Did me. I never had anyone to protect me. I didn't end up all unicorns and rainbows.

I'm babbling, sorry.. like I said, struck a few neurons in my head (IE: causing the pinball effect).

I think there's 2 things here. What she does until she has that baby, and what she does after.

Neither of which you have control over.

I will put money on this though.. if she TRULY hasn't been drinking (which I would also put money on that she HAS been), and really did just this one time, that's WORSE.. worse because she wasn't physically dependent at this point, worse because she is clear headed by 8 months making a very conscious decision to alter her life and her baby's life.. so I will put money on the fact that once she isn't as "worried" ?? about the baby, that she'll drink again.. why not!? What does this relationship look like in 3 years? 5? 10? Tracking device and all? Is this healthy for a child? Is this enhancing to your life?

Just some thoughts.. pardon the randomness.
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:59 PM
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Thanks all.

I will be talking to the doctor tomorrow, I have a newcomers meeting for Alanon tonight, we have marriage counseling on Friday, she has a one on one tonight with her sponsor.
I have had a chance to talk to her and think over the lapse. It does make sense. When we are home she has her meetings and there is no booze around. About two monhts ago she found a bottle she had hidden 9-10 months ago and came running to me to let me know so I could pour it out.

She found where I kept my one bottle of borubon a few weeks ago and told me right away. Monday night she told me that she wants me to give up alcohol completely - whether home or not. Previously she said she did not mind if I had wine with dinner or a glass of bourbon which I like to have maybe one or two nights per week. She wants me to give it up entirely so I will. I'm not thrilled about it and not having a glass of wine at dinner or a drink with a client when I'm not around her seems harmless but it is a sign of solidarity and next time we go somewhere and people are drinking she won't be the odd one out. I'm willing to do that since it is a way to be supportive and shows her that I am willing to live as she has to.

So I am reviewing the past few weeks in my head looking to see if I missed anything and I really don't think so. She acted a little whacky one night after being overtired and taking an ambien and her counselor said that can make you act loopy and that's the only time she showed any sign of intoxication in 8 months.

So I have some conflicting goals here - on the one hand I have to be vigilant because her disease requires it. On the other hand, my objective is to get to a point where we are equal partners and best friends, not inmate and warden. Plus, I am VERY disappointed that she slipped but very PROUD that she made it 8 months and then instead of justifying or dismissing her monumental goof, she went to her meeting and walked up to get that 24 hour chip and start all over. I'm focused on the slip because the possible ramifications are so off the chart serious but if she's going to get well then I need to see the success, not just the failure and praise the success. She already feels bad enough about the failure and she's being accountable.

I agree that contracts and checking up and all this CRAP is a horrible way to live and not the life either of us wants. I guess I am searching for some sanity in all of this, kinda like a halfway house between the current instability and the eventual marriage we want to have.

Our marriage has zero chance if either of us feels like we have to be perfect and it has zero chance if she were to drink or if I were to I dunno - have a girlfriend. So the answer is in the middle and it's a moving target and it's slippery and invisible.

Al anon and writing it out here should help, I am fighting to find the right balance of supportive and vigilant. When I married her knowing that this problem existed I made a promise. I did not promise to accept active drinking or to be responsible for her issues but I did promise in sickness and in health, for better for worse, forsaking all others.

So I need to do that - not at the expense of my own mental health or the best interests of my children and not if she decides to say screw it, I'm gonna drink and he can like it or not... but if she can walk up in front of thirty people and ask for that chip with her belly then I can set aside my hurt feelings and prop her up.

I'll need to figure out boundaries and how to communicate them in a way that is not threatening and demeaning but honest and respectful and I hope we can agree on them and write them down so that if they are broken there is no argument: IE, if you drink then you go to rehab and there is no argument. I'm afraid to write the "and if you don't get help then..." part because that part is clear and heartbreaking to think about. I won't be caretaker to an active addict ever again because I am a fixer and I like to take care of people and that can be a beautiful quality but it can be incredibly harmful when it crosses over to 'enabling doormat'. Enabling could kill her and ruin me.

Thanks for listening. I am figuring it out a bit at a time and it will be a marathon rather than a sprint. Need to even out the hills and dips and keep a more even keel.... hope for the best, try not to be surprised by the dips and focus on the goal.

Loving her so much helps :-)
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Old 09-05-2012, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by PohsFriend View Post
So I have some conflicting goals here - on the one hand I have to be vigilant because her disease requires it.
Actually - You don't have to be vigilant. She does. Its her disease. It is not yours to manage. It's hers.

You say you love her so much. How about showing that to her by giving her the respect of being a fellow adult who can manage herself, while you focus on managing yourself *said in kindness*

Smacked is right, and although I know it came across as blunt and almost rude, Cyranoak was right in your other thread.

Doing nothing is always an option, and one that is far less drama-filled and stress-inducing. And you might be surprised at what she does when you stop doing it all for her.
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Old 09-05-2012, 03:54 PM
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Let me tell you what my husband did about my drinking. Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

He did have boundaries, if I kept drinking and using, he was going to move out because he will not live with an active drunk. Otherwise, my actions showed him my recovery.

He still doesn't know a dang thing about addiction or alcoholism, doesn't have to.. doesn't matter. I'm either the person he is willing to share his love and life with, or I'm not. So far I've proved that I am, on the flip side, so has he. We all have boundaries about what we'll accept in our lives. If we don't.. well.. that's trouble.

My recovery is none of his business, and he has never made it so.

I would have recovered with or without him. I had to.

He's never asked me if I've drank or used..I think he drinks a glass of wine when he's out with clients a couple times a month, I actually have no idea.

I'm just a non drinker, and I don't use drugs. The rest of the crap I had to do to get there was incredibly intimate and personal to me, and I share that with nobody.
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Old 09-05-2012, 04:40 PM
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Bravo



This is so well written and real it is sticky-worthy. I loved reading it and I hope it helps the OP and others who need to read it.

Well done Smacked, well done.

C-

Originally Posted by smacked View Post
I couldn't stand to read the rest of that without it triggering me deeply. But I've taken a few deep breaths and a walk around the house and just want to say..

You, my friend, appear to be deeply enmeshed in her addiction and recovery. You are trying to control things you cannot control. Your relationship is eerily parental in nature and apparently will continue to be.

I have all sorts of thoughts racing in my head.. sort of like a pinball. I "qualify" for something like 10 boards here on SR. I'm an addict, I'm an alcoholic. (as of last weekend, 4 years sober and recovered). I was born from addicts, raised by alcoholics. I've loved many in romantic relationshps and dear friendships. Just wanted to clarify that I'm not coming at this from just one perspective.

She will always be an alcoholic. I'm sure Cyranoak wouldn't mind me throwing his name in here, but listen to him. He is very very wise.

You are trying to control a situation that you have no business in. Yeah, she's pregnant, I get that.. so go to a dr. appt with her and spill the beans, if she was serious about recovery she'd be more than willing to get her ass into a rehab until she delivers. I bet some rehabs would have advice about that. Intensive outpatient services? Something.

This isn't a 'we' thing. You aren't qualified to treat her, to rule her around, or to force her into rehab against her will. As an addict/alcoholic, absolutely nothing besides jail or death could have kept me from using/drinking if I still wanted to. I saw a glimmer of your realization of this powerlessness in your other thread, but then here is like BAM BAM BAM.. alcoholic jail imposed by husband. (it's not going to work this way, and I know you're scared to DEATH about her alcoholism, this baby, this child being raised by a drunk either in recovery or not, your own issues with codependency, which are screaming LOUD AND CLEAR in this thread). It is scary.. this is life and death stuff. This is screw a kid up for life stuff. Did me. I never had anyone to protect me. I didn't end up all unicorns and rainbows.

I'm babbling, sorry.. like I said, struck a few neurons in my head (IE: causing the pinball effect).

I think there's 2 things here. What she does until she has that baby, and what she does after.

Neither of which you have control over.

I will put money on this though.. if she TRULY hasn't been drinking (which I would also put money on that she HAS been), and really did just this one time, that's WORSE.. worse because she wasn't physically dependent at this point, worse because she is clear headed by 8 months making a very conscious decision to alter her life and her baby's life.. so I will put money on the fact that once she isn't as "worried" ?? about the baby, that she'll drink again.. why not!? What does this relationship look like in 3 years? 5? 10? Tracking device and all? Is this healthy for a child? Is this enhancing to your life?

Just some thoughts.. pardon the randomness.
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Old 09-05-2012, 04:42 PM
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Thanks guys,

I am learning.

You are right about the before baby comes and after baby comes issue. Before baby comes if she drinks I can (HAVE TO) do something and presumably the doctors would not hesitate to admit her until the baby is safely born.

After? Hmmmm. Tuff and Smacked - you guys just put a good dent in my thick head, thank you for that.

I don't have to solve it or try to manage her recovery. I need to know what my boundaries are and stick to them. I would not allow someone who is under the influence of drugs to care for my infant and I am not willing to take care of an addict who is using. That was misery for me.

So maybe for now we see what the docs say tomorrow and if there is any sign whatsoever of drinking before the baby comes I just need to handle it like any other threat to my child - whatever is safest for child wins, period.

After the baby comes you are right, it really is up to her and she can be sober or she can use. My boundary is that my child can't be left in the care of someone who is using and I won't take care of someone who is intoxicated.

That isn't easy but it is simple isn't it? I know I am not willing to give up on her if she goes 8 months sober and has one drink then does everything possible to get back on the right path. I also know that I am not willing to deal with her or let her be around a baby if she is drunk.

So I suppose it is pretty simple. I need to figure out what the 'line' is, find a way to communicate it respectfully and then stick to it. It's somewhere between had one drink after 8 months and laying around drunk and incapable of caring for herself and/or an infant. Maybe Al-anon and my counselor an help me figure out that line and meanwhile I will pray that I am not forced to define it too soon.


Thanks guys. I am sure you are rolling your eyes a bit and thinking "this poor knuckleheaded fool" like watching Wily Coyote follow the Roadrunner into the tunnel where inevitably the ACME Locomotive is just going to knock the snot out of him.

.... Hoping won't change anything, being the best me that I can and leaving the rest ot her and accepting that it's in God's hands is pretty much all I can do.

Do you have any freakin idea how hard it is for a Myers-Briggs ENTJ, Scorpio, Male to see a %^&*# problem and just leave it to others to solve?
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Old 09-05-2012, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by PohsFriend View Post
Do you have any freakin idea how hard it is for a Myers-Briggs ENTJ, Scorpio, Male to see a %^&*# problem and just leave it to others to solve?
Now that's better - a little sense of humor - good.

It really helps when we can laugh at ourselves.

I know this is stressful as all get out. All of us here know this. And the majority of us are recovering control freaks in some way or another. Its a normal human reaction to try to control things when they are spinning more and more out of control. But the only thing any of us can really, truly control is ourselves. It's really that simple.
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Old 09-05-2012, 05:30 PM
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Sorry about that Pohsfriend...

...it's even harder for me to be nice to new dudes than to gals. I have to get on top of that. I could have said it differently and I apologize.

In my defense I never suggested leaving her. What I should have left it at is my strong encouragement for you to focus primarily on yourself. As strange as it sounds, and as many others have said, it's the only thing I've ever seen work relative to a loved one's drinking (but it doesn't work all the time-- there's this other side of the street, their side, and if they aren't keeping their side clean sobriety does not come regardless).

I believe that by finally, after many years, focusin on me it created an environment where my wife was able to focus on herself. Since she chose to actually do so, she found sobriety and is working with specialists on her bipolar disorder. There have been a couple of relapses, one serious, but today finds her back on the horse.

More will be revealed. We're still together after 14 years, but I have to say most of them have been miserable for me, and all because I picked a depressed, alcoholic, drug addict, single mother with a three year old baby as my life mate and spouse for the first five of those 14 years.

In my mind she was a great pick, and I believed my focus was directed appropriately towards her and our daughter. It was all about them.

I though I could save her. I had delusions of grandeur, a cape on my back, the ability to read minds, the ability to change their future, and it was my responsibility to do so.

Here I come to save the day! White horse, cape, a few bucks in the bank, nice house, nice car, sword named Dragon Slayer, and college degrees coming out of my ass. What a guy. Some or all of this may or may not apply to you. Truly, I'm speaking only of me.

I hope some of this helps. Please do take what you want, if anything, and leave the rest.

Again, my apologies.

Take care,

C-

Originally Posted by Tuffgirl View Post
Smacked is right, and although I know it came across as blunt and almost rude, Cyranoak...
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:01 PM
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Cyranoak, don't be hard on yourself man. Your stomping on my toes a couple oft times in the beginning was exactly what I needed to start seeing reality as it is and is a big reason I'm where I'm at today,

So thank you for being you.



Your friend,
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