Emotional support vs. enabling

Old 08-07-2012, 07:45 PM
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Question Emotional support vs. enabling

We want to be emotional support for our son who is leaving rehab on Sunday. He is a married adult in another state. We are picking him up from rehab to return him to his home town. Actually my husband is picking him up to return him to jail for his bench trail the following day for DUI 3. He is a wonderful person. How are we going to be emotional support in the months to come?

He is manipulating us after 3 months in jail and 6 weeks in rehab. I say again, he is a wonderful person. I need to stop saying that? But I believe he is. He isn't thinking of my husband who will drive 8 hours to pick him up, 6 hours to return him to jail...and wait overnight to go to the trial the next day and then drive 6 hours home to go back to work. We are grandparents, does that give you any idea of our age? Not an easy trek for someone young!

My husband's stomach is in a knot again tonight because my son is manipulating the 'trip' from rehab to the jail...stop to see his car (that was impounded from the DUI 3 and was repaired from the damage he had) and go to his house where his wife and children are not (children will be with us, wife is traveling for work). His wife manipulated us in taking the kids for two weeks during our very busy work season. That is another long story. She is a piece of work....she came that way to the marriage, it wasn't my son's alcoholilsm.

All such a mess...but we need to make boundaries. I suggested to my husband to call my son and tell him what time he will pick him up and tell him he needs to be back at jail by 6:30. He will stop to see the car or the house, not both. He should not do either, but my husband is taking a babystep in not driving around the country for my son.

We are coming to a close on all of this...whether it is the end of my son's legal battles or not. We are coming to a close on DIL manipulating us...whether we see our grandchildren or not. We need to live a life.

Any thoughts? My biggest question is this... How do we give emtional support without enabling? what words? what actions are emotional support (not enabling) for an adult?

My AA friend says, "Oh, us alcoholics, we are manipulative." She tells me my real son is there... it is the alcohol.
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:58 PM
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I don't know how old your husband is but if his stomach is in knots in anxiety over this trip, if he were my dad I'd tell him not to do it and let his son call one of his buddies, or take a bus or a cab. Since when did being a parent of a grown adult mean you became his personal taxi service?

And emotional support? How old is he, 12? Last I checked, grown adults who have emotional problems that need support should check with their doctor or psychologist or clergyperson.
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Old 08-07-2012, 08:06 PM
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I hear waht you are saying. However, my husband took an oath (in front of the judge and clearly written on the bond) to pick him up and return him to jail when he was released for rehab. We thought of calling the bonds person to pick him up.

We have read and learned we are to give emotional support, not enable.

So...no support at all? Is that what I am hearing?

I am learning, I am stronger. I will never let my DIL manipulate me again. I am working very diligently on not allowing my son to manipulate (because of his alcoholism).

My husband needs to learn, come to grips with letting go. As an adult child of an alcoholic, I know that view point. As the mom of an alcoholic it is heart wrenching...heart wrenching. If I was the spouse of an alcoholic, I would be DAM mad. Depends what role a person is in I think.
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Old 08-07-2012, 08:22 PM
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SS, I hear you saying it depends on the role of a person. I disagree. Tough love is tough love. Maybe your son is manipulating because he knows you won't let him fall? A son's familial ties are not stronger than a husband/wife. In my opinion.

With all of my challenges with AH, I have not mentioned my son who seems to be taking the same path. I let go of son when he made his bad decisions, I don't feel it is different than with his dad. Son knows he can't manipulate me, so he has been working on a brother. I am helping the brother stay strong by teaching him what I am learning. The A's manipulate. They certainly don't feel the loyalty you are clinging to. You can let go if you want to. Maybe you don't want to? that is what I am hearing.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:27 PM
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hmmm... Im new here and because of my boyfriend. But I dont understand why it is bad to give emotional support to someone if they are in recovery mode.

My boyfriend definetly took advantage and manipulated me when he was active in his use; but I think it was all caused from the drug. He wasnt like that before, and now that he is fully detoxed and headed towards an inaptient rehab - I can already see a difference in him; back more the normal man I know.

I do think that people fall into patterns, and Ive heard that it takes a while to change those behaviors and change their outlook, perception of how they fit in with others, etc. Like realizing in this case, his grandfather is making a really hard trip back and forth, and he should be appreciative. But then I also can see where if he has been sittign in jail then in his mind he is focused on these things like seeing his car, seeing his house that he has probably focused on while in jail. They are like ties back to reality in a way.

Like I said Im new... but I would do what you are comfortable with physically, and from your own emotional standpoint. Say what you feel you need to say, encourage in ways that you think might motivate him.

And as far as the daugheter in law.... sounds just like my sister in law. She is not an addict or alcoholic, but she is a big time TAKER. She will do her best to see every situation to her advantage in regards to my parents. If it means so she gets free babysitting, or finds a way to ask one of them to pick up something from the grocery store for her under the pretense of the kids, or times it so my parents have to feed the kids dinner and she will walk in just as they finish, or I love this one... my mom will get a coupon for like 30% off a store, and my sister in law will have a list of things the kids need, and she will pay her for all of it ( has to go on my moms credit card to get the discount) and then she conveniently forgets until my mom asks her for the money. Or... convincing my parents that if her and my brother go onto my parents cellphone plan and each pay half the bill... then they will all have more minutes and it will be cheaper for everyone ! Except after two months they just quit paying. (My mom let it go on two months then she put their accounts on hold so they couldnt use their phones unless they paid up) and as soon as the year was up, she dropped them off. That is so not the way my mom raised me and my brother; but my brother wont even stand up to his wife... he has become a TAKER also. Its sick. Sorry for the vent.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:44 PM
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How are we defining emotional support? I am not responsible for the A's emotions. If they are adults, they can figure out rides, money, the logistics of life. That is not what I am hearing here. I am hearing that the A is asking for what they can do for themselves. Emotional support is me encouraging the A to stand on their own two feet. And not giving in when they are trying to emotionally manipulate me.
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:23 PM
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What Im hearing a lot of people saying really is that everyone should be completely independent, and no one should ask another person to do what they can do for themselves. And that no one ever needs a hug, or compassion from their loved one unless it’s a kick in the pants to remind them to be independent.

That would be where the issue of codependency comes from… when people are so emeshed that they rely on each other so much, they become unable to function on their own, or are miserable because they feel like they do so much for others, and are being taken advantage of….. But I think that most people can live in the middle…. I don’t think they have to have such a hard stance about not doing things for others that they can do for themselves.

I mean maybe I haven’t lived with an addict long enough, but I feel that things with my boyfriend, and pretty much all my other relationships…. Things tend to even out over time. Maybe I do something for someone that isn’t necessary, but its nice, or they are having a hard time and I just want to offer a hand…. But then it will be returned to me when I could use some kindness. Of course, like with my sister in law, my parents have learned her tricks and they pass on her great ideas (that benefit only her) because she never returns the favor for anything. Its sad but like the OP said…. My parents have not had as much contact with their grandkids because they refuse to be taken advantage of just to visit with them.

So perhaps Ive answered my own question…. The suggestion to not do for anyone what they can do for themselves, only really applies when you are being taken advantage of, and not respected on a regular basis by a person.

In my case, the drug abuse started only a few months ago and the inconsiderate behavior / lying / etc. has only gone on for a few weeks… so I feel that I don’t need to take such a strong stance with him because Im expecting him to revert back to his more kind , considerate ways as he recovers. Well… sorry for rambling … but this thread has helped me understand a little bit as to why people respond and have the thoughts and feelings that they do.
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Old 08-08-2012, 05:24 AM
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Emotional Support

Originally Posted by coffeeclouds View Post
How are we defining emotional support? I am not responsible for the A's emotions. If they are adults, they can figure out rides, money, the logistics of life. That is not what I am hearing here. I am hearing that the A is asking for what they can do for themselves. Emotional support is me encouraging the A to stand on their own two feet. And not giving in when they are trying to emotionally manipulate me.
This is helpful to me. We need to encourage our son with comments such as, "You'll find an answer to this."

Thank you.
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Old 08-08-2012, 05:36 AM
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Joeysgirl - I am happy you understand my DIL's behavior as a TAKER. That word is the word my husband used 8 years ago when they were married. We found out within 6 weeks of marriage. I will no longer be manipulated by her, either. I am working at that. It is a process...

My son was arrested on DUI 3 and in jail for 3 months before granted bond for rehab. He has been in rehab 6 weeks this Sunday and will return to jail for his bench trial on Monday. We don't know what will happen. His situation was a big mess. He had a DUI 2 10 days prior to the DUI 3. We think his wife may have called the police on both. He was sitting in the car, not running, with keys in reach for DUI 2. DUI 3 he had driven and was parked at home when police came. Long story short. We are thankful he was in jail -- not on manslaughter charge.

He is sober, we believe, after being in jail 3 months and rehab 6 weeks. He manipulated by phone while in jail. I think he is still manipulating his dad. We think his wheels are turning right now. Questions from our AS need to be thought through before we answer them.

My husband is not 'into' recovery (Alanon). He is stressed to the limit, going to see the doctor Friday, going to pick up son on Sunday (judge's order for husband).

Son wants keys for storage where his repaired car is and he wants keys to his house brought. He is suppose to go from rehab to jail. He is manipulating. I don't think my husband is strong enough to go from rehab to jail and he will give in to house OR car. Very hard for him. Would be for me also.

I suggested my husband call our AS and let him know he will pick him up at a certain time and exactly what his (husband's) plans are and will be.

Reason for posting here is even though our A is sober, they can continue their manipulation. Recovery is a VERY long process and VERY hard (according to my AA friend). Recovery takes strength and courage. I pray a lot. I really do want my 'real' son back. I don't know if that will ever happen. I can only know I will WORK AT taking care of myself. That is not easy either because I like to be nice, as you do. I believe wanting to make every calm, nice, peaceful is part of my make from being the adult child of an alcoholic.

Peace be with all of us in recovery...
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Old 08-08-2012, 05:39 AM
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It was my husband that brought me here, but I discovered that I have a lot of family impacted by the disease.

Yes there is a difference depending on the love one involved, however the closer the ties the more important it has been to me to learn the skills of knowing what is mine and what is not. Because for me the closer the ties the easier it was to be manipulated.

I am not saying that a loved one is purposefully manipulating, but it no longer matters to me if it is on purpose or not....the end result is the same. Me doing something that has the potential to compromise me (that is how to me interdependence and codependence are different....my reason for doing them).

This journey has taken me a long time....be gentle with yourself it does not happen overnight.
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Old 08-08-2012, 06:10 AM
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SS,
Much better. My (R?)AH is dry now too, but it was forced. True sobriety will be what he continues when he is out of rehab and learning to live again. I am not going to be trusting it for some time because I am easily manipulated by him and his words. Our specific circumstance is that he is also physically sick, has not worked for years, so I will still have to help support him financially. He is not going to the streets if I can help it, but he is not coming home, either. He may only be a husband (not my child), but he is the father of my children and has been a part of my entire adult life. The bounds are strong. But, I need to be firm. He needs to care for himself and quit relying on me to be his life. He was the one who made his decision to drink again. I am not going to be dragged down into it even if it appears disloyal.

JG,
It is that ongoing expectation that our loved one will return, and then having our hopes smashed time and time again that is where many of us come from. So, when we seem harsh, it is because we keep expecting that change, adapting our needs to the other person's sickness, then, ideally, see that we need our own help. That help usually means we have to detach from the situation. For me, that detachment has been going on for some time as I have lived with active alcoholism for the last few years after AH was sober for 25 but slowly re-exerting his alcoholic behaviors. I have been here before, I am not going to do it a third time. Yes, I did things for him that I should not have done. Some were necessary given specific circumstances. No one is talking about bringing a cup of coffee in the morning. But, when I won't cook food that I want because of constant complaints, then that is going too far. When I keep buying things to placate him and then he loses them, and I feel guilty about it, that is sick. When I keep dumping money into his checking account because he can't budget or manage, then I am the one with the problem. When I passively stand by when he is over disciplining the children that is wrong. When I have no more say in the family's dynamics because of trying to avoid conflict, then I am the one who needs to change. Yes, he was wrong in his behavior. Yes I was wrong to keep wishing his real self would return. Yes, I was encouraging the good stuff. Yes, I did not have control over him. Yes, I did kick him out to figure it out. Yes, I am not responsible for his response to it (and it hasn't been pretty.) Yes, I need to care for me and the kids now and still not worry about what he is doing/not doing. Does that help?

I truly hope that this is a short term problem for you. I suppose that can happen. Probably not to the ones who post here, though, so keep that in mind.
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Old 08-08-2012, 10:09 AM
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We can't just let go of 'hope'. Hope, Faith, Love.

I have learned in the past 4 months the success rate of the first time 'try to sober' is 3%. Very small. I could have lost my hope when I heard that. We all hope our A will be the exception and be in the 3%.

Alcohol has really been an underlying sadness my entire life. I have had a wonderful life, don't get me wrong. I had a wonderful mom, a man who loves me, two wonderful sons. We now have 4 wonderful grandchildren. I know my A dad loved us all too.

I find it very hard to be 'to the point' and say no. I think my husband will have to tune his manipulation out...and know that it is manipulation when it is happening.

As a mom, I will always and forever love my son. Maybe a spouse of an A can always love their A spouse. If I was going through this pain with my spouse (that I am going through with my son), I think (not sure because I am not in that situation) I would be angry, mad, and begin to dislike him.

A woman friend of mine across the country from me has a husband who tried to sober 3 times (I think). He finally did sober but his life consists of AA meetings, working, AA meetings, work. The love is lost. She wants him out, and he won't go.

This is the difference in my thinking... my AA woman friend really dislikes her husband and stuck with him but really wants some quality life herself now. Me, as a mom... I will never dislike my son. Never. He is part of my heart and soul. Always will be.

That is where I am coming from. I am healing. I pray when my mind starts to get scattered thoughts.... Pray, asking for God to remove those thoughts I can't do anything about. It is beginning to become natural...the thoughts not ALWAYS in my head. I am sleeping better. That is a good sign.
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by SettingSunset View Post
We can't just let go of 'hope'. Hope, Faith, Love.

I have learned in the past 4 months the success rate of the first time 'try to sober' is 3%. Very small. I could have lost my hope when I heard that. We all hope our A will be the exception and be in the 3%.

Alcohol has really been an underlying sadness my entire life. I have had a wonderful life, don't get me wrong. I had a wonderful mom, a man who loves me, two wonderful sons. We now have 4 wonderful grandchildren. I know my A dad loved us all too.

I find it very hard to be 'to the point' and say no. I think my husband will have to tune his manipulation out...and know that it is manipulation when it is happening.

As a mom, I will always and forever love my son. Maybe a spouse of an A can always love their A spouse. If I was going through this pain with my spouse (that I am going through with my son), I think (not sure because I am not in that situation) I would be angry, mad, and begin to dislike him.

A woman friend of mine across the country from me has a husband who tried to sober 3 times (I think). He finally did sober but his life consists of AA meetings, working, AA meetings, work. The love is lost. She wants him out, and he won't go.

This is the difference in my thinking... my AA woman friend really dislikes her husband and stuck with him but really wants some quality life herself now. Me, as a mom... I will never dislike my son. Never. He is part of my heart and soul. Always will be.

That is where I am coming from. I am healing. I pray when my mind starts to get scattered thoughts.... Pray, asking for God to remove those thoughts I can't do anything about. It is beginning to become natural...the thoughts not ALWAYS in my head. I am sleeping better. That is a good sign.
I just wanted to thank you for your post because it has been really helpful to me in thinking about my boyfriends behaviors these past couple months, and especially comparing that to my sister in law that sounds so much like your daughter in law. Even at his worst, my boyfriend was never manipulative and selfish in the ways that my sister in law tries to be, and she isnt even an addict but I sort of suspect maybe there is something weird in her family as we have never really spent time with them and dont know them.

But anyway, knowing my sister in law, and thinking about what if my boyfriend was like that... wow what an eye opener. I could not live with him like that. He would (really would ) make me go nuts. My parents and I have sort of figured out how to diffuse my sister in law, and yes that now drifts over to my brother because it seems even he cant stand up to her. I really hope your son is not being strongly affected by his wife in that same way.

So I am going to now know more of what to look for happening with my boyfriend after he returns from the rehab. I will be aware, and I wont let that type of behavior take me down.

But you know in your last post, you mentioned the three things that I think are the utmose important: faith , hope, love. You were asking earlier how you support your son without enabling, and without causing yourself to be manipulated. Maybe those three things are your answer.... Let him know you have faith in him; that he will meet the trials that he is facing, that God is looking out for him, and you have faith he will find the answers within. And only do for him what you are comfortable with and ask yourself before... will I regret this . And the expression of hope... that things will get better for him and there are goals and dreams he can begin to hope for himself and you can encourage that light in his life... and love... that you love him unconditionally even if you do not agree with many of his choices, or actions.

But again Im new and havent been through all that much with my A yet, so take my thoughts with that in mind.

Thanks again for your post.
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Old 08-08-2012, 10:53 PM
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I don't know, but as a parent myself, I suspect that detaching and no longer enabling your child is way harder than doing the same thing with a spouse. So I don't pretend to have any insight into the particulars of dealing with an addict child. My heart really goes out to you, because detaching from your child goes against your every instinct as a parent. Which is, I think, what makes it so hard for you to figure out what is enabling and what isn't.

I think the biggest lesson Al-Anon taught me was that what I thought was loving, caring behavior actually was harmful to the alcoholic in my life. That way of thinking was a complete 180 for me. That the best thing I could do for my then AH was to allow him to take full responsibility for his own actions.

Lots of love to you.
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Old 08-09-2012, 05:16 AM
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I think a lot of parents act in codependent ways and rationalise it "because I'm his parent." i think a lot of parents who get dragged through the mud with alcoholics and addicts feel guilt and shame that they CAUSED this to happen. When they didn't cause it. They can't control it. And they can't cure it. I believe there comes a point in time when a "child" has become a teenager where the parent has to accept that the "child" has his own ability and responsibility to make his own decisions for his life. "Let go or be dragged" applies to everyone. There is no special exemption for parents.
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