So what does a person who constitutionally incapable of being honest with himself do?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 22
So what does a person who constitutionally incapable of being honest with himself do?
It was pointed out and I realized that I am that person. I change the facts of a situation in my mind to suite me. Deep down I know the truth (I can see it later) but that doesnt matter because my mind reshuffles the facts to suite me on top and totally blurs the truth. I believe this is why Ive never been able to call my sponsor before I got drunk. So where do I go from here? Do I just give up now after trying to get sober for years. Im obviously not going to give up, giving up is death. I dont understand why I cant pick up the phone before I use. It didnt even occur to me to make a phone call last night.
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
1st, there has to be an understanding of what "constitutionally incapable of being honest" means.
as it is written in the BB, it means a persons IQ is so low, they cant even grasp what honesty is.
IMO, the reason you wont pick up the phone is because you are still living on your will and havent made the decision you are willing to go to any lengths.
what got me to the point of doing what ever i had to do was desperation. the pain of getting drunk finally exceeded the pain of reality.
The first requirement is that we be convinced that any life run on self-will can hardly be a success. On that basis we are almost always in collision with something or somebody, even though our motives are good. Most people try to live by self-propulsion. Each person is like an actor who wants to run the whole show; is forever trying to arrange the lights, the ballet, the scenery and the rest of the players in his own way.....
...So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible. And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid. Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore, but we could not live up to them even though we would have liked to. Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by wishing or trying on our own power. We had to have God's help.
This is the how and why of it. First of all, we had to quit playing God. It didn't work. Next, we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director. He is the Principal; we are His agents. He is the Father, and we are His children. Most good ideas are simple, and this concept was the keystone of the new and triumphant arch through which we passed to freedom.
....When we sincerely took such a position, all sorts of remarkable things followed. We had a new Employer. Being all powerful, He provided what we needed, if we kept close to Him and performed His work well. Established on such a footing we became less and less interested in ourselves, our little plans and designs. More and more we became interested in seeing what we could contribute to life. As we felt new power flow in, as we enjoyed peace of mind, as we discovered we could face life successfully, as we became conscious of His presence, we began to lose our fear of today, tomorrow or the hereafter. We were reborn.
prayers yer way
as it is written in the BB, it means a persons IQ is so low, they cant even grasp what honesty is.
IMO, the reason you wont pick up the phone is because you are still living on your will and havent made the decision you are willing to go to any lengths.
what got me to the point of doing what ever i had to do was desperation. the pain of getting drunk finally exceeded the pain of reality.
The first requirement is that we be convinced that any life run on self-will can hardly be a success. On that basis we are almost always in collision with something or somebody, even though our motives are good. Most people try to live by self-propulsion. Each person is like an actor who wants to run the whole show; is forever trying to arrange the lights, the ballet, the scenery and the rest of the players in his own way.....
...So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible. And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid. Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore, but we could not live up to them even though we would have liked to. Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by wishing or trying on our own power. We had to have God's help.
This is the how and why of it. First of all, we had to quit playing God. It didn't work. Next, we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director. He is the Principal; we are His agents. He is the Father, and we are His children. Most good ideas are simple, and this concept was the keystone of the new and triumphant arch through which we passed to freedom.
....When we sincerely took such a position, all sorts of remarkable things followed. We had a new Employer. Being all powerful, He provided what we needed, if we kept close to Him and performed His work well. Established on such a footing we became less and less interested in ourselves, our little plans and designs. More and more we became interested in seeing what we could contribute to life. As we felt new power flow in, as we enjoyed peace of mind, as we discovered we could face life successfully, as we became conscious of His presence, we began to lose our fear of today, tomorrow or the hereafter. We were reborn.
prayers yer way
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 22
IMO, the reason you wont pick up the phone is because you are still living on your will and havent made the decision you are willing to go to any lengths.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 22
what got me to the point of doing what ever i had to do was desperation. the pain of getting drunk finally exceeded the pain of reality.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,442
Shallow I'm not in AA but I don't believe we have to be three quarters dead to be ready to change.
I think 'bottom' is simply the moment when we decide we can't live our drinking life for one more minute.
Once I decided that, no amount of effort was too much in order to stay sober
D
I think 'bottom' is simply the moment when we decide we can't live our drinking life for one more minute.
Once I decided that, no amount of effort was too much in order to stay sober
D
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
you dont have to suffer any more pain. i highly suggest that if your sponsor isnt pushing the program on ya hard and taking you through the BB, get a sponsor that will and make em earn combat pay!
Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.
Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it-then you are ready to take certain steps.
At some of these we balked. We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.
Remember that we deal with alcohol-cunning, baffling,
powerful! Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power-that One is God. May you find Him now!
Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon.
Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. The answers will come, if your own house is in order. But obviously you cannot transmit something you haven't got. See to it that your relationship with Him is right, and great events will come to pass for you and countless others. This is the Great Fact for us.
Abandon yourself to God as you understand God. Admit your faults to Him and to your fellows. Clear away the wreckage of your past. Give freely of what you find and join us. We shall be with you in the Fellowship of the Spirit, and you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the Road of Happy Destiny.
May God bless you and keep you - until then
Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.
Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it-then you are ready to take certain steps.
At some of these we balked. We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.
Remember that we deal with alcohol-cunning, baffling,
powerful! Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power-that One is God. May you find Him now!
Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon.
Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. The answers will come, if your own house is in order. But obviously you cannot transmit something you haven't got. See to it that your relationship with Him is right, and great events will come to pass for you and countless others. This is the Great Fact for us.
Abandon yourself to God as you understand God. Admit your faults to Him and to your fellows. Clear away the wreckage of your past. Give freely of what you find and join us. We shall be with you in the Fellowship of the Spirit, and you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the Road of Happy Destiny.
May God bless you and keep you - until then
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Dancing in the Light
Posts: 61,510
Shallow, I think in some ways, it's a fundamental shift. Listen to your soul and fully accept that drinking is no longer an option, ever. Once you make that shift, your mind will begin to find new ways to get through life. I don't think it matters how low you are, if you're motivated, you can do this.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Constitutionally incapable of being honest? Who told you that? Why would you believe it? We've only just met, but you seem like the honest type to me, Shallow.
The moment came for me when I understood that I didn't have to do this anymore if I didn't want to. I realized that this was all up to me, and that I could stop the madness if I chose to. That was honesty for me. It wasn't self will that was keeping a full Smirnoff bottle at hand, it was the absence of will. It wasn't ego that was making me feel more and more guilty and ashamed, it was the suppression of my ego and my will to survive that was adding to that impressive collection of empties. I had over 200 empties in my collection at one point - pretty impressive, huh?
I chose to stop. I used my thinking, my self will, my ego, my instinct for survival. You can do this, too, Shallow. Face the fear and walk through it. I know that you can do this. Are you ready?
The moment came for me when I understood that I didn't have to do this anymore if I didn't want to. I realized that this was all up to me, and that I could stop the madness if I chose to. That was honesty for me. It wasn't self will that was keeping a full Smirnoff bottle at hand, it was the absence of will. It wasn't ego that was making me feel more and more guilty and ashamed, it was the suppression of my ego and my will to survive that was adding to that impressive collection of empties. I had over 200 empties in my collection at one point - pretty impressive, huh?
I chose to stop. I used my thinking, my self will, my ego, my instinct for survival. You can do this, too, Shallow. Face the fear and walk through it. I know that you can do this. Are you ready?
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,701
Shallow-- Your post sounds painfully honest.
It also sounds like you want to recover. Have you tried therapy, SmartRecovery, AVRT, etc.? I think you have to be willing to try EVERYTHING.
The funny thing is even in 12-step programs there are varieties of recovery. (I am no longer in any of the fellowships, but I was always told NOT to call people if I was going to use, which sounds like the opposite of what you are being asked.)
If what you are doing is not working, try something else.
It also sounds like you want to recover. Have you tried therapy, SmartRecovery, AVRT, etc.? I think you have to be willing to try EVERYTHING.
The funny thing is even in 12-step programs there are varieties of recovery. (I am no longer in any of the fellowships, but I was always told NOT to call people if I was going to use, which sounds like the opposite of what you are being asked.)
If what you are doing is not working, try something else.
Member of SMART Recovery
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,722
Shallow, I agree with miamifella and freshstart... far from being "constitutionally incapable" of being honest, your post tells me that you are very capable of being honest.
But I have to ask you: is the program you're in now helping you? You say you have been trying to get sober for years...have you been trying the same thing again and again?
I'm reminded of the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results.
Maybe it is time to stop doing the same things you've done in the past. There are so many different approaches to recovery...you may simply not have yet found the one that's right for you.
But I have to ask you: is the program you're in now helping you? You say you have been trying to get sober for years...have you been trying the same thing again and again?
I'm reminded of the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results.
Maybe it is time to stop doing the same things you've done in the past. There are so many different approaches to recovery...you may simply not have yet found the one that's right for you.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 521
For me I lost people, jobs, place to live, things I had that made life comfortable. It wasn't till I lost the will to live in the bottom of a bottle that I really and truly just didn't care anymore... that I saw the hope in understanding my powerlessness over my addiction. I just didn't f*cking care anymore about life or living... all I cared about was drinking.
I hope you reach that point soon... because once you do... finally you will be ready to stop. Because it is the last house on the block, the last stop on the bus line.
I hope you reach that point soon... because once you do... finally you will be ready to stop. Because it is the last house on the block, the last stop on the bus line.
Choosing Life
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Montana
Posts: 1,435
Shallow, I think you are being very, very honest. The idea of being "constitutionally honest" means admitting you have a problem with alcohol. There are many alcoholics out there (my dad was one of them) who drank himself literally to death but would never admit he had a problem. THAT is someone who couldn't be constitutionally honest. I don't see that in you at all.
The thing I'm wondering is not whether you are honest, but are you really ready to stop?
When I started AA I was in horrible shape. I had managed to avoid a lot of the horrors that a lot of alcoholics have been through, but I was still at a place where I wanted to die. I was in and out of the rooms for 3 years ... I'd get a couple months of sober time, then go back out ... get a month of sober time, then go back out ... get 4 months of sober time ... rinse and repeat. My sponsor finally helped me to see that even though I was in complete misery, I also wasn't ready to give up that bottle.. It had been my friend, my comfort, my refuge for SO long that even though it also caused me nothing but agony, I just couldn't surrender it. It was the only thing I knew and I didn't know how I was going to live without it.
I had to work the first 3 steps over and over and over again. I still have to work them every single day because my brain has a built-in "forgetter." The program works but it takes work. You gotta make those phone calls, you gotta get to meetings, you gotta talk to other alcoholics, you gotta connect with people. One of the biggest mistakes I made in all of my relapses was in not calling people. Well, sometimes I'd call them ... when I was already drunk, lol. I realize that phone weighs about 1000 pounds when you're needing to reach out, but there is no shame in asking for help and that's what we are here for. And trust me, people WANT you to call. When they help you, they are also helping themselves. That's the beauty of the program.
The first step is surrender. You gotta get there first. Give it up, give it over to God, to whatever higher power you choose. Give it up. Get on your knees and ask God/your higher power for help. That's what Bill W. did when he'd had enough. Then seek out that help from your fellows. They want to help. Work with a great sponsor, get going on step 1, get to as many meetings as possible. Don't isolate yourself - make those phone calls. And if you need additional help, find a counselor. Definitely keep coming here ... there is such a world of experience here and so many people who understand your pain and have been through it themselves.
There is hope. You just gotta reach for it. Don't give up, my friend.
The thing I'm wondering is not whether you are honest, but are you really ready to stop?
When I started AA I was in horrible shape. I had managed to avoid a lot of the horrors that a lot of alcoholics have been through, but I was still at a place where I wanted to die. I was in and out of the rooms for 3 years ... I'd get a couple months of sober time, then go back out ... get a month of sober time, then go back out ... get 4 months of sober time ... rinse and repeat. My sponsor finally helped me to see that even though I was in complete misery, I also wasn't ready to give up that bottle.. It had been my friend, my comfort, my refuge for SO long that even though it also caused me nothing but agony, I just couldn't surrender it. It was the only thing I knew and I didn't know how I was going to live without it.
I had to work the first 3 steps over and over and over again. I still have to work them every single day because my brain has a built-in "forgetter." The program works but it takes work. You gotta make those phone calls, you gotta get to meetings, you gotta talk to other alcoholics, you gotta connect with people. One of the biggest mistakes I made in all of my relapses was in not calling people. Well, sometimes I'd call them ... when I was already drunk, lol. I realize that phone weighs about 1000 pounds when you're needing to reach out, but there is no shame in asking for help and that's what we are here for. And trust me, people WANT you to call. When they help you, they are also helping themselves. That's the beauty of the program.
The first step is surrender. You gotta get there first. Give it up, give it over to God, to whatever higher power you choose. Give it up. Get on your knees and ask God/your higher power for help. That's what Bill W. did when he'd had enough. Then seek out that help from your fellows. They want to help. Work with a great sponsor, get going on step 1, get to as many meetings as possible. Don't isolate yourself - make those phone calls. And if you need additional help, find a counselor. Definitely keep coming here ... there is such a world of experience here and so many people who understand your pain and have been through it themselves.
There is hope. You just gotta reach for it. Don't give up, my friend.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
I don't believe that, Shallow, and I doubt that you do either. You are posting here for a very good reason, I am sure. Survival is our strongest instinct. Listen to yours.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Atlanta Georgia
Posts: 11
Im new to the forums.
Obviously I dont know you (Shallow) but I am reminded of someone I lived in a sober house with. He had been through the house 3 times and the last time he used, he said he may be constitionally incapable
But he was in a relationship with someone when living there. So my thoughts were how could you be constitionally incapable of something you were not working? i.e. honesty principal?
I dont know what I am saying.....I guess that I think your addiction is telling you a story: that you are not capable. But I agree with the others, and that doesnt sound like the case
I recently relapsed after 9 months.....for four days....and I am back in the program. My disease tried to tell me it didnt work for me either. Its a lie. It does work, but only you know if you were truly working it
Try a sober house for accountability I know that helped me--you can still work, etc
Just a thought
Best of Luck
Obviously I dont know you (Shallow) but I am reminded of someone I lived in a sober house with. He had been through the house 3 times and the last time he used, he said he may be constitionally incapable
But he was in a relationship with someone when living there. So my thoughts were how could you be constitionally incapable of something you were not working? i.e. honesty principal?
I dont know what I am saying.....I guess that I think your addiction is telling you a story: that you are not capable. But I agree with the others, and that doesnt sound like the case
I recently relapsed after 9 months.....for four days....and I am back in the program. My disease tried to tell me it didnt work for me either. Its a lie. It does work, but only you know if you were truly working it
Try a sober house for accountability I know that helped me--you can still work, etc
Just a thought
Best of Luck
Member of SMART Recovery
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,722
Shallow:
I am very concerned about you. Please, if you are thinking about killing yourself, call a suicide hotline NOW. Below is a link to the numbers of suicide hotlines around the US:
USA NATIONAL Suicide & Crisis Hotlines - When You Feel You Can't Go On... Call a Suicide Hotline. / SuicideHotlines.com - Direction for immediate crisis intervention for the gravely suicidal & treatment for major clinical suicidal depression.
I am very concerned about you. Please, if you are thinking about killing yourself, call a suicide hotline NOW. Below is a link to the numbers of suicide hotlines around the US:
USA NATIONAL Suicide & Crisis Hotlines - When You Feel You Can't Go On... Call a Suicide Hotline. / SuicideHotlines.com - Direction for immediate crisis intervention for the gravely suicidal & treatment for major clinical suicidal depression.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 804
I know where you are coming from. When I was still drinking, I felt like I wanted to die. I wouldn't call it suicidal because I didn't plan methods or really consider killing myself. I just wanted to put my head under the covers and disappear to escape the pain of addiction. For me, it was depression and alcohol (a depressant) made it worse by 1000%. I feel sooooo much better since I stopped drinking.
For now, I have immersed myself 100 % into AA. I do not subscribe to all of the program's tenants but I go by the motto: "take what you like and leave the rest". However, I listen to what others have to say and if I get one useful tidbit per meeting, I feel like it was a success. I also feel I benefit greatly from the social connections that I have gained from going. It took a while and I really had to put myself out there. I arrive at least 10 min early and stay late to help with cleanup. I have met a lot of people during those times.
That being said, if AA is not for you, it's time to try something new. Or a combination. There is AVRT, Smart Recovery, therapy, and medications that can help. Being honest with myself is probably one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. And something I've never really required of myself. Introspection makes me really uncomfortable.
Lastly, I like to think of alcohol as something like arsenic. Taken in small doses over time it will kill you slowly. Taken in one big dose it will kill you quickly. Either way, the outcome is never good.
Lastly, as onlythetruth said above, there are plenty of resources for you if you need them. Don't be afraid to seek them out. That's what they're there for. If you read enough posts on this forum, you will realize that there is hope for you.
For now, I have immersed myself 100 % into AA. I do not subscribe to all of the program's tenants but I go by the motto: "take what you like and leave the rest". However, I listen to what others have to say and if I get one useful tidbit per meeting, I feel like it was a success. I also feel I benefit greatly from the social connections that I have gained from going. It took a while and I really had to put myself out there. I arrive at least 10 min early and stay late to help with cleanup. I have met a lot of people during those times.
That being said, if AA is not for you, it's time to try something new. Or a combination. There is AVRT, Smart Recovery, therapy, and medications that can help. Being honest with myself is probably one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. And something I've never really required of myself. Introspection makes me really uncomfortable.
Lastly, I like to think of alcohol as something like arsenic. Taken in small doses over time it will kill you slowly. Taken in one big dose it will kill you quickly. Either way, the outcome is never good.
Lastly, as onlythetruth said above, there are plenty of resources for you if you need them. Don't be afraid to seek them out. That's what they're there for. If you read enough posts on this forum, you will realize that there is hope for you.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: casablanca
Posts: 282
Shallow, there's nothing odd, weird or different about your situation. I have been where you are now. I may end up relapsing again who knows. I have known the program of AA for well over a decade and could not stay sober for nothing. jails, hospitals, withdraws, overdosing, homelessness, accidents, permanent scars on my face, father's death, did I mention withdraws. I tried AVRT, sober recovery, religions( with an S ) and of course suicidal thoughts were the norm. Finally I have gotten a sponsor for the first time ever and worked the steps with this person. guess what I relapsed again on this sponsor over and over again, just to show you that I know what you are going through. I gave up too. But when I talked to my sponsor, he kept telling me that I am sick, that I have this disease and that he is not giving up on me, that some worst cases than mine have recovered. so this last time I accumulated 3 months of sobriety, it was not easy, I did all I could do to keep sober, I wake up and pray, read the forums, talk to sponsor, when my addictive voice wants to start its shift I run to the Internet and read the forums, it helps. never was I so serious about staying sober, I used to give up to the voice so easy, now I use what they call the tools to turn it off. most important I don't put myself in the pity pot anymore or at least when I realize that I am starting to feel sorry for myself I don't. It looks like you are drinking now, I won't ask you to put it down, but I would say that I am a perfect example of what you been through and I am recovering. So when you get sober, read these replies you got from everybody here. I forgot to mention that I have had panic attacks since childhood and that was another thing that deterred me from staying sober. I went and saw a psychiatrist, I do not recommend pills but I am taking 2 types of prescription medicines too, what I am trying to say whatever it takes, any lenght.
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