Anon12

Does anyone have any information or insight into the difference between alcohol abuse and alcoholism? And is sobriety the answer, if it's not alcoholism? I'm not talking about moderation for alcoholics, have seen the thread on that. Also, I appreciate the label doesn't matter, it's what you are prepared to put up with or what you find acceptable - I am dealing with my situation by leaving as i dont' think it is acceptable but I really would like some facts to help me understand and come to terms with it. I am reading Under the Influence but woudl appreciate any information or views.

I have found this online:

Alcohol abuse is a pattern of drinking that results in harm to one’s health, interpersonal relationships, or ability to work. Manifestations of alcohol abuse include the following:

•Failure to fulfill major responsibilities at work, school, or home.
•Drinking in dangerous situations, such as drinking while driving or operating machinery.
•Legal problems related to alcohol, such as being arrested for drinking while driving or for physically hurting someone while drunk.
•Continued drinking despite ongoing relationship problems that are caused or worsened by drinking.
•Long-term alcohol abuse can turn into alcohol dependence.

Dependency on alcohol, also known as alcohol addiction and alcoholism, is a chronic disease. The signs and symptoms of alcohol dependence include—

•A strong craving for alcohol.
•Continued use despite repeated physical, psychological, or interpersonal problems.
•The inability to limit drinking.

My ABF's doesn't match any of the alcohol abuse criteria except the: "Continued drinking despite ongoing relationship problems that are caused or worsened by drinking" - pretty major one and also criteria for dependency. He was able to limit his drinking on several occasions when we were together but before I raised it as a problem. Initially it was mainly an issue with volume, then it became binges that didn't matter if he was with friends or not. It also wasn't in the day or secretly until he tried to tackle his drinking problem at my request (for me, not for himself so bound to fail) when he then started doing it secretly. For me, that makes it alcholism as I think alcohol abuse implies someone deliberately abusing it but able to stop if they choose?

But I also know a lot of people who can't control their drinking and stop after a few but aren't alcoholics - so what tips someone into the latter category?

Would be grateful for anyone's advise on books to read or online resources to help me understand better. I am very much focusing on me but it's something I just feel I need closure on so when I'm wavering with my decision, I can remind myself of the bleak facts.

Thanks

m1k3

It doesn't really matter what he is, it's just a name. If his drinking is causing a problem in your relationship then it's a problem. So, the big question is not about his drinking but about what you want of the the relationship. It you're not getting what you want from it you have every right to walk away.

Through the course of all I have been through I think one of the biggest lessons I learned was the most important relationship I have is with myself.

Your friend,

miamifella

This sounds like a distinction without a difference. So both the alcoholic and the abuser drink even though it disrupts their life and relationships...what is the point of deciding who falls into what category? You say you understand that labels don't matter--but then you ask for labels.

It feels like this is about letting someone else off the hook for his or her behavior or assuaging your own guilt about leaving. But there are no black and white lines. Alcohol abuse is a stage through which all alcoholics pass--but when they cross the line is not necessarily clear cut. Your judgement is fine--if you have to think about these things at all, it has gone too far and you are right to leave.

Neither the abuser or alcoholic should drink. It's not that complicated.

laurie6781

Okay here is a simple way to look at this.

1) Alcohol is a problem to you, therefore it is a problem.

2) Does not matter if he is an 'alcohol abuser' or has crossed to alcoholism, he is well on his way. BTW AlcoholISM is the I, SELF, ME, the narcissistic behavior. I am sure you have already seen plenty of this.

Most treatment 'programs' deal with the ISM. That is where the problem lies with the abuser/alcoholic in that when the treatment starts getting too close to their ISM they scurry back to the bottle to continue to numb themselves, not ready (and maybe never) to look at that side of themselves.

3) See 1) and 2).

Hope that helps.

Love and hugs,

Anon12

No, this isn't about letting him off the hook or my guilt. I am quite sure my decision is the right one and I am not to blame, even if I'm finding it hard.

What it is about, which perhaps I should have explained, was I wanted to get clear in my head what I thought recovery was for my XABF before he moves out and I try and move on and focus on me and my recovery.

M1k3, I understand it doesn't matter what the name is if it's a problem for me, i have the right to walk away but the reason I want to know about his recovery, before I focus on mine, is I have decided I only wish to see him again if he is one year in recovery, staying sober. I realise he quite posisbly will relapse again or I may decide I don't wish to risk it but I wanted to get straight in my head what I would consider recovery so I can switch off thinking about it.

I believe his behaviour (whether abuse, alcoholism or whatever) means he needs to just not drink alcohol ever again but I have had conflicting advice from counsellors and read conflicting opinions on recovery. i've read about scales of alcoholism and CBT counsellors have said CBT can help people who have abused alcohol manage their drinking depending how far down the 'scale' they have gone. It's all very confusing and I've only recently been dealing with the extent of his problem. I'm not looking for labels - they already exist!

I guess I know what I think but was just hoping to sound out others with experience but I'll trust my gut.

sugarbear1

Alcoholism is NOT just dependency on alcohol. I was not physically dependent on alcohol. Alcohol was my solution to living life. I felt okay when I drank. The ISM of alcohol is how I See Me.

If you take alcohol away and life is beautiful, then alcohol was the problem; don't drink anymore.

If you take alcohol away and you are irritable, restless and discontent, then YOU are the problem and there is a new solution in the steps of AA.

These are things I encountered with my alcoholism:
•Failure to fulfill major responsibilities at work, school, or home.
•Drinking in dangerous situations, such as drinking while driving or operating machinery.
•Legal problems related to alcohol, such as being arrested for drinking while driving or for physically hurting someone while drunk.
•Continued drinking despite ongoing relationship problems that are caused or worsened by drinking.
•Long-term alcohol abuse can turn into alcohol dependence.

Alcoholism has nothing to do with how much, what time of day, or how often one drinks. It's the effect and relief that it brings to us. Alcoholism can show up in the use of other drugs, too.

I wish you well!

sugarbear1

My alcohol dependence was in the progression of weekend drinking to daily drinking at the end of my "drinking career" and I had a mental dependence on alcohol.

DesertEyes

Hello Anon12, and pleased to "meet" you

Yes, it is very confusing. Which is why there are so many recovery centers and programs and TV shows and books and on and on and on. So here's the short version:

You have several different questions tangled up into one statement. Here is what I see that you are asking, let me know if I got it wrong.

1- What your XABF is doing with _his_ life.
2- What you want to do with your _own_ life.
3- How to get #1 and #2 to cooperate with each other, or not cooperate so you can make up your mind.
4- What does all this alcohol stuff have to do with the first 3 questions and how does it affect your decision.

Just to let you know, that is pretty much the same questions _everybody_ has when they arrive here on SR, so you are in good company

I'll address each question starting at the bottom.

Alcohol is a chemical that has various properties in the human body. It anesthetizes portions of the brain, which then causes people to perceive reality in a distorted way. Some people enjoy this "buzz", some don't. Depending on the person’s individual genetics this chemical has some additional effects. In some people it actually _kills_ brain cells, or liver cells, or pancreas, or all of the above. In some people it kills cells that produce the brain’s own, internal chemicals used to handle stress, danger and fear.

I have not kept up with the genetics people, so I don't know if they found the specific genes that differentiate the specific damage that alcohol does. Last time I looked they were pretty close.

To complicate things a little more, the _amount_ of alcohol makes a huge difference in how it affects the body. Other strange things like something called "lipid solubility" is also an issue, that's the ability of a chemical to get to the brain directly from the blood. It varies in subtle ways from one person to another.

The result is that depending on an individual's genetic composition, and various mechanisms within the body that process alcohol, you get hugely different results when they drink the stuff. At one extreme you get people that get just a little bit "buzzed" and _hate_ the feeling. At the other extreme you get people that need a _large_ amount of alcohol and they feel _good_. Naturally, the ones that feel good want more.

Once a person starts drinking alcohol on a regular basis ( or any other addictive chemical ) the various cells in the body start to die off. In some people they die very quickly, in others very slowly. When the brain cells that produce stress-managing chemicals start to die off is when you get the medical diagnosis of addiction. Alcohol anesthetizes the part of the brain that comprehends stress, while killing of the brain's ability to handle stress.

It's the "perfect storm" chemical because alcohol _replaces_ the chemicals in the brain that handle stress. When a person with "addiction" reduces the amount of alcohol in their system they discover that their stress levels shoot straight up to the roof. Blood pressure fires up, perspiration, unable to sleep, nervousness. Their brain is no longer able to handle stress on it's own, but alcohol can do the job.

Which is why medical detox uses other chemicals such as barbiturates to manage the insane blood pressure while the body re-adjust to life without alcohol.

The catch is in just how many brain cells have been killed, and how many are just damaged and can recover. (That’s where the word "recovery" comes from, the doctors talking about brain cells that are healing) If there are enough brain cells left, or at least left well enough to heal, then the person will slowly re-develop their own internal stress chemicals and not need the alcohol just to stay alive.

Some people have done too much damage to their cells, there are not enough of them left, and the person dies.

The "progression of the disease", or the "continuum", and the various terms such as "addiction", "dependence", "abuse", "scales", are just buzzwords used in the profession to try and capture the complexities of brain damage. There are a _lot_ of techniques used to assist in healing brain damage, "CBT" is just one of them.

In order to have a _solid_ answer as to your XABF there needs to be some kind of machine that can go into his brain and count how many cells are dead, how many are damaged, how many will heal, how many will not, etc. etc. We don't have that kind of machine yet.

Now let's look at your question #3. How do you make up your mind about all this? Well, you can't. You don't have enough information about the future, and your XABF's future, to make any kind of decision. In my personal opinion, that is the fundamental problem with life, none of us can see the future.

Yours truly married a wonderful lady who was _not_ an addict, and nobody in her family was an addict. For 20 years we had a fantastic marriage, not perfect, but as close as it gets. Then she became extremely ill, needed large amounts of heavy pain medication, almost died. She got well, but discovered that she really liked the pain pills and was not going to give them up. I _thought_ I had "predicted" my future by _not_ marrying someone with addiction in their history, but life had other plans. I tried to answer my own "question #3" by marrying her, and discovered that my question #3 was the wrong question to ask of life.

What I found out, and what you will see from reading all the posts here on SR, was that I was trying to create a safe future for myself instead of creating a safe _me_ that could handle whatever the future threw at me.

When my wife became addicted she had the _potential_ to recover, to join NA or PA or go to treatment or something. I learned that I was hanging on to the _potential_ of a relationship, instead of an actual relationship. That's when I realized that my own "Questions #1, 2, and 3" were the wrong questions to ask. The question I needed to ask myself is a standard al-anon question.

Do I want to be married to a "potential", or to a person?

I decided I preferred a person. I divorced my "potential" and made a new life for myself. So far it's been one of the best decisions I ever made.

Ok, I think I have answered your question #4, and shared that my personal opinion on your other questions is that in my own life they did not solve my problem or help me make up my mind. I don't think that is the answer you wanted to hear, because it certainly was _not_ the answer _I_ wanted when I first arrived in al-anon.

I hope I have given you a bit of clarity as to the "disease" so that you can now answer your own questions in a manner that meets your own needs in your life, regardless of whatever I did with my own life, or what all the "experts" are telling you.

Mike
Moderator, SoberRecovery

Anon12

Thanks for those comments. DesertEyes - thanks for your patient explanation. I am struggling with the realisation that I won't be able to magically work out if my XABF has got himself into recovery in a year's time. How I wish that machine existed, a way of knowing. I will only be able to judge that if I take the risk and resume the relationship and that scares me. I am aware though I am only days into my decision and hopefully in time I will work out what I want and what is best for me.

I am starting counselling this week with a counsellor who has experience of addiction, who I met at my 'affected others' group and will see how that goes before trying Al Anon.

Thanks everyone.

DefofLov

Good for you for coming here, getting a counselor, and considering Al Anon.

Anon12

OK, i've read Under the Influence now and I completely recognise my XABF being in the middle stages of alcoholism. Something just clicked that made my previous post above irrelevant. He has to not drink ever to be ok. I get it.

However, there seem to be a few bits of the book that jar with what people have said on this forum and I know a few people have mentioned some things in the book being 'old fashioned'.

The bits I couldn't quite get my head around and would appreciate views are:

The section where it talks about how you can help and aside from learning about the disease and detaching etc. which all makes sense it suggests finding a recovery programme. Unless someone is in such a state they get put into an enforced rehab, I can't see how this works and assume this is not advised as the alcoholic has to choose this for themselves? So, my question related to this is what is an acceptable or practical way to help an alcoholic get treatment beyond saying 'get treatment'? Is it too codependent to send them links to this site? Getting Them Sober suggested you could show them literature etc. but then decision up to them.

The other bit was where it said AA doesn't focus on alcoholism as a physiological disease but the steps focus on the individual's failings and weaknesses and encourages shame which can be counter productive. Is this true? A while back when I needed to talk to someone, I rang a drink line here in the UK and the woman on the phone said something very similar. She mentioned that my ABF would be feeling shame from his relapse and the nature of AA can make addicts feel guilty which can cause another relapse. When he went, my XABF said he found the meetings useful but didn't like the steps. Is there another way?

The only bit that didn't add up that I don't need to ask was the implication that family could help and be supportive, if detached. That bit I know I can't do and more importantly shouldn't have to. I felt guilty for a second reading it with slight panic of 'should I be staying and helping him get treatment' but almost immediately I thought it isn't my responsibility and he needs to feel the consequence of his drinking for him to realise how serious it is. Hopefully.

Anon12

I meant to clarify, not that no one should help their family member or partner - I completely understand it is an individual choice - just something I know I can't do anymore.

laurie6781

Far from it!!!!!! AA gave me the tools to face the WRECKAGE OF MY PAST, and get through the 'shame' and all the other negative feelings, and get on with living a very sober, productive life for just about 31 years now.

I have to ask the same thing Anvil is asking .............................. what are you really looking for??? Permission to stay?

J M H O

Love and hugs,

DesertEyes

Well, it all goes back to that whole business of alchoholism having two extremes, and a _lot_ of complications in between. Each person is unique, and the situation in which they have sunk themselves as a result of their drinking is also unique. That is why there are so many different types of treatment; from very expensive spa's on one end to free services at the Salvation Army, Catholic Charities, etc.

In turn, that is why the _first_ thing a family member has to is educate themselves as to the details of this disease. That way you can find what approach is appropriate for your specific situation.

The general rules for helping an alcoholic are these:

1- Is your life in danger? If yes, call the police, get physically safe, find professional help and then come back to the next step.

2- Educate yourself about the disease, which you are currently doing.

3- Figure out what things about the alcoholics present situation need your personal involvement, and can done by _nobody_ else on the planet. With very few exceptions you will find that anybody who has enough brain cells to continue drinking also has enough brain cells to wander over to a recovery center.

4- Since the alkie is perfectly capable of getting help for themselves, then what can you do in order to help _yourself_? This is where al-anon, CODA, therapy, etc. come in.

Yup Try it this way, can he physically pick up the telephone and dial 911? Then you don't have to dial it for him. Can he physically pick up the phone book and look up "alcohol treatment"? Then you don't have to do it for him.

Suppose he passes out drunk in the middle of a busy street. At that point he is not able to get himself out of danger, so you can call 911 for him. But you do not go lie down in the middle of the street next to him.

See, this is part of the whole "education" process. As it turns out, "AA" is a misnomer, there really are several _different_ concepts that get thrown in together under the label "AA". First there is the "program" of AA, which is just the 12 steps listed on one page of a book. Then there is the "literature" of AA, which is a large collection of opinions about those steps. Then there is the "meetings" of AA which are just groups of people who get together to talk about various issues involving alcoholism. And there is the "organization" of AA, and on and on.

Now, another question you might want to consider, is that AA is for _him_. Figuring out what AA is and how it works is _his_ task. Something that you may find very helpful is to spend that energy researching what is available for _you_. Is there al-anon in your area? CODA? Are there counselors or therapists that could be answering all these questions?

No worries. Most everybody on this forum arrives with exactly the same feelings. That's why SR exists

That is one of the fundamental principles of recovery for _us_. As long as I was protecting my ex-wife from the consequences of her pill addiction, she had no need to protect herself. It sounds simple, but as you have clearly expressed, it is a lot more complicated to actually do it.

It sounds to me like you are asking all the right questions, and you are arriving at much the same answers we all do. As they say in meetings of al-anon, "Keep coming back", as in keep coming back to SR and in very short order your mind will clear and you will know what actions you need to take.

Mike
Moderator, SR

NYCDoglvr

I call myself an alcoholic because while I can not drink, when I pick one up I have no control about how much I drink or what happens. That's what "powerless over alcohol" means....

In my experience non-alcoholics don't abuse alcohol. Maybe a bit they're in school, but not as adults. I've never seen it.

Anon12

No, I'm not looking for permission to stay - its just not black and white, i still care very much for my XABF and am trying to come to terms with what I can do, what I can't and what I can't expect. That's all.

My post from last night shows, I am desperate for this to end but i'm still working through it.

miamifella

A few people have touched on something that I want to underline.

A large number of relationships break up in the first year or two of sobriety. Often one of the bonds keeping the relationship together IS the alcoholism/addiction itself. It is possible that you might be less interested in your partner if he was healthier. This is why groups like alanon and therapy can be helpful. It is important to gain perspective on how one built a relationship with a dysfunctional man--if only to keep from having another such relationship in the future!

This may sound harsh, but if you were someone who willingly had a relationship with someone like him, then you probably are not someone who can really help him at this point. You fell for his bull, he fell for yours--so you both need to step back. Maybe there is a way to pick this up again in the future, or maybe not. But for right now, there is little either of you can do for each other.

You are already figuring it out for yourself--no one could have done that for you. He needs to go on a similar journey and figure it out for himself--you cannot do it for him.