Stay or Go?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 40
Stay or Go?
Or more, stay here with him or make him leave? (if he will)
Background: We split in Jan, for about 6 weeks. He agreed not to drink in the house, and I agreed to let him come back. He's recently been drinking in the house again. He keeps agreeing not to drink in the house again, and it keeps happening. I'm the only one working right now, so I know I can do it financially without him.
I'm more worried about the kids. We have 3 (11,6,4,1) and I'm not sure which would affect them more negatively; him being here or not.
I went to an al-anon meeting yesterday for the first time since a few years ago (went once, but I was in a much different place than now). It was great, and I'm planning to make a habit of it.
So, I know I can't have people make my decisions, but someone give me a reason to try to make this work. I'm not sure of any reason to stay (besides the fact that I do love him, when he's not drinking)
Background: We split in Jan, for about 6 weeks. He agreed not to drink in the house, and I agreed to let him come back. He's recently been drinking in the house again. He keeps agreeing not to drink in the house again, and it keeps happening. I'm the only one working right now, so I know I can do it financially without him.
I'm more worried about the kids. We have 3 (11,6,4,1) and I'm not sure which would affect them more negatively; him being here or not.
I went to an al-anon meeting yesterday for the first time since a few years ago (went once, but I was in a much different place than now). It was great, and I'm planning to make a habit of it.
So, I know I can't have people make my decisions, but someone give me a reason to try to make this work. I'm not sure of any reason to stay (besides the fact that I do love him, when he's not drinking)
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,754
Him being there , a drunk, is far more harmful than him not being there at all.
I was raised in a home with an alcoholic father, it's not pretty.
It's only my opinion, and maybe I am not being objective, alcohol is soul wounding stuff.
I was raised in a home with an alcoholic father, it's not pretty.
It's only my opinion, and maybe I am not being objective, alcohol is soul wounding stuff.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
I was in a very similar position. For me personally I had to leave to save myself. I could no longer survive in that marriage. I was being destroyed financially and emotionally. I was a sad, depressed, bitter, rigid, exhausted mother. I spent all my emotional, financial, and energy reserves on trying to manage alcoholism. It consumed me. It was exhausting and it doesn't work. I was doing it to try and preserve my family - or my fantasy of what I wanted my family to be.
At the time I left I did not leave to save my children from alcoholism. I was to co-dependent, to much in denial, to confused to see how alcoholism might be affecting them. I can see it now that I have some clarity though.
So I left not to save them from alcoholism but mostly to save them from what was happening to me. Despite the fact that I spent every day of my life trying to do right by my children I was not a good enough mom. How can a woman like I described above be a good mom? I was being consumed. There was no joy. None. I felt like I was throwing them under the bus to save myself but I also knew I had to move forward because I was the only one that could raise them. He couldn't because I finally admitted that he was an alcoholic. I finally began to understand that I was responsible for them and myself, not alcoholism or the alcoholic.
Today I am flexible, sane, stable, financially secure, PRESENT, and while I still have to work at it - I can share, give, and express joy in the small moments of our day. The motions are the same but the smile is not plastered on my face because I have reminded myself to do so but it comes from my heart and reaches into my eyes and they feel it for real. We can laugh together. My kids used to ask me all the time if I was happy or mad or sad and they did that because they couldn't tell if they didn't ask. I was so lost and tired. My ex husband is sometimes drunk, and sometimes sober, and dealing with emotional and anxiety issues - and gone from our lives. He made that choice (and still reminds me years later that I can change it) and of course it is devastating for a young boy. We can't build a perfect hurt free life for our children but we can take care of what we are responsible for. They have a good mother today and taking responsibility for that has been worth it a million times over.
Myself, I had to leave my marriage but that doesn't actually mean you have to. The two questions to ask yourself are
What do you need in order to be the best you possible. What do you need to do so that you can find joy in your heart and share it with your children? What do you need to be a present and good mother?
Then, what kind of map do you want to draw for your children? Every single night that they go to sleep another piece of their map has been laid down. It is leading them somewhere. The things they saw, heard, experienced, felt, witnessed, shared - those are what make up their maps. Those things are what leads them down the path of life. Little children follow in their parents foot steps.
At the time I left I did not leave to save my children from alcoholism. I was to co-dependent, to much in denial, to confused to see how alcoholism might be affecting them. I can see it now that I have some clarity though.
So I left not to save them from alcoholism but mostly to save them from what was happening to me. Despite the fact that I spent every day of my life trying to do right by my children I was not a good enough mom. How can a woman like I described above be a good mom? I was being consumed. There was no joy. None. I felt like I was throwing them under the bus to save myself but I also knew I had to move forward because I was the only one that could raise them. He couldn't because I finally admitted that he was an alcoholic. I finally began to understand that I was responsible for them and myself, not alcoholism or the alcoholic.
Today I am flexible, sane, stable, financially secure, PRESENT, and while I still have to work at it - I can share, give, and express joy in the small moments of our day. The motions are the same but the smile is not plastered on my face because I have reminded myself to do so but it comes from my heart and reaches into my eyes and they feel it for real. We can laugh together. My kids used to ask me all the time if I was happy or mad or sad and they did that because they couldn't tell if they didn't ask. I was so lost and tired. My ex husband is sometimes drunk, and sometimes sober, and dealing with emotional and anxiety issues - and gone from our lives. He made that choice (and still reminds me years later that I can change it) and of course it is devastating for a young boy. We can't build a perfect hurt free life for our children but we can take care of what we are responsible for. They have a good mother today and taking responsibility for that has been worth it a million times over.
Myself, I had to leave my marriage but that doesn't actually mean you have to. The two questions to ask yourself are
What do you need in order to be the best you possible. What do you need to do so that you can find joy in your heart and share it with your children? What do you need to be a present and good mother?
Then, what kind of map do you want to draw for your children? Every single night that they go to sleep another piece of their map has been laid down. It is leading them somewhere. The things they saw, heard, experienced, felt, witnessed, shared - those are what make up their maps. Those things are what leads them down the path of life. Little children follow in their parents foot steps.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Tx
Posts: 117
Youre enabling him. You dont want him drinking in the house, he agreed not to drink in the house down yet he is drinking in the house?? Get him out if there. Trust me ive lived with an A before like so many others here on SR & the situation will only do harm to you. &hes not even working? The better question is Do you care more about yourself and your childrens well being or more about catering to the alcoholic?
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 253
Originally Posted by amy79 
He keeps agreeing not to drink in the house again, and it keeps happening.
but someone give me a reason to try to make this work. I'm not sure of any reason to stay (besides the fact that I do love him, when he's not drinking)
I am so sorry you are going through this emotional turmoil. All I can tell you from my own experience...unless he decides to stop drinking and unless he decides to be a 100% sober Dad to his kids....the emotional turmoil will only get worse for you and for your children.
I'm no angel!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: tampa, fl
Posts: 6,728
Making bounderies that you have no intention of keeping are not bounderies, they are idle threats and play right into the "A's" mindset, by not following through on a boundery you are giving him all the power.
Your children are the true victims in this toxic enviorment, they will carry their childhood into adulthood, they deserve so much more, if you can't do the right thing for yourself...do it for them...you are their voice, their future.
Your children are the true victims in this toxic enviorment, they will carry their childhood into adulthood, they deserve so much more, if you can't do the right thing for yourself...do it for them...you are their voice, their future.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 585
I think dollydo has a good point - if those boundaries aren't respected and he consistently crosses them without repercussions, then he's essentially being conditioned to think that what he's doing is fine.
I can't tell you whether you should stay or go - hell, I can't even figure that out for myself some days, and I flip-flop every which way depending on recent events, what I've read here & elsewhere, and what my hormone levels are! I'm still trying to figure out my own path, so unfortunately, I can't be of too much help - but there are so many helpful and kind folks here who have gone through this. Look in your heart, and heed the advice of others here who have been able to traverse this and successfully come out the other side.
I can't tell you whether you should stay or go - hell, I can't even figure that out for myself some days, and I flip-flop every which way depending on recent events, what I've read here & elsewhere, and what my hormone levels are! I'm still trying to figure out my own path, so unfortunately, I can't be of too much help - but there are so many helpful and kind folks here who have gone through this. Look in your heart, and heed the advice of others here who have been able to traverse this and successfully come out the other side.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 38
I am still married to my AH, we both had children from previos marriages & married when our children were grown but I know for certain I could never stayed if my children had to live in our home with him.
Several years ago someone said to me that it's like scales of justice, the "GOOD" things love, finances, support of the children on one side and the "BAD" effects, drama, turmoil, insanity etc of living with an "A" on the other side. (this wasn't exact but pretty close)
The point at which you are done is when the weight of the "BAD" tips the scales and only you can decide when the balance has gone too far.
His drinking WILL have a negative effect on the children and should add considerable weight to the bad side.
Several years ago someone said to me that it's like scales of justice, the "GOOD" things love, finances, support of the children on one side and the "BAD" effects, drama, turmoil, insanity etc of living with an "A" on the other side. (this wasn't exact but pretty close)
The point at which you are done is when the weight of the "BAD" tips the scales and only you can decide when the balance has gone too far.
His drinking WILL have a negative effect on the children and should add considerable weight to the bad side.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,175
Hi, Amy, I'm sorry this is happening, but it will only get worse with time.
You made a boundary. He violated the boundary.
Its my experience that if we continue to allow the boundaries to become fluid, caving in, and giving in to their needs over our kids safety and our peace of mind, it just gets harder and harder to keep the next boundary, which may become more urgent...for real safety.
That is not to say it is easy.
I tried to allow my RASTBEX to live with us while he was drinking, once or twice. I thought I had made some clear boundaries, but they kept getting shifted: "well, just dont drink until son is asleep...well, just dont do it til you are passed out."
Its a pandoras box. Its a disease.
You dont want it in your daily life.I assume it brings negativity and depression and obvious secrecy and confusion onto the kids.
I have been in the unccomfortable position of operating a revolving door...Our family and friends never knowing if he was in or out of the home, because I had to put him out several times for violating the boundaries: First of not drinking, then after he got sober, for general mean, cranky, entitled teenaged behavior.
But, its none of their business why I did that. And I did that, and I would do it again if I fall into the denial again and let him come back. As for now, he is expected to attend regular meetings, to be emotionally present and sane and well as hold a job. Thats all his responsibility.He does not feel, 18 months sober that he has anymore work to do towrd trust or whatever. He doesnt drink, he says, he works, and that is enough.
Not for me and not for our son.
But he comes back and says he figured it all out, he knows now that it was wrong to be this way or that. But the revolving door is now inoperable.
All I can say to you is, with my RAH sober, I have put him out more than before when he was a drunk. The issues dont just go away. I made mistakes...primarily in being lax in the idea that he would need to earn trust and be consistent in order to rejoin the family. He took advantage of that, what I thought was being unconditionally loving...Why did he do that?
Because he is an addict.
Just from experience and trial and error on my part, I would suggest you make the decision and get really solid with it. No drinking in the house. NO being silly, or sickly drunk while in the house. And keep reminding yourself how much easier it is without that, how much clearer and lighter your days are without that muck in the mix. And for the kids, as well.
And do not go back on that boundary. Just my experience. And I am no master at it, either. But, I could have saved years of stress and pain, if I had listened to what some people on this forum and in my group told me back then.
You made a boundary. He violated the boundary.
Its my experience that if we continue to allow the boundaries to become fluid, caving in, and giving in to their needs over our kids safety and our peace of mind, it just gets harder and harder to keep the next boundary, which may become more urgent...for real safety.
That is not to say it is easy.
I tried to allow my RASTBEX to live with us while he was drinking, once or twice. I thought I had made some clear boundaries, but they kept getting shifted: "well, just dont drink until son is asleep...well, just dont do it til you are passed out."
Its a pandoras box. Its a disease.
You dont want it in your daily life.I assume it brings negativity and depression and obvious secrecy and confusion onto the kids.
I have been in the unccomfortable position of operating a revolving door...Our family and friends never knowing if he was in or out of the home, because I had to put him out several times for violating the boundaries: First of not drinking, then after he got sober, for general mean, cranky, entitled teenaged behavior.
But, its none of their business why I did that. And I did that, and I would do it again if I fall into the denial again and let him come back. As for now, he is expected to attend regular meetings, to be emotionally present and sane and well as hold a job. Thats all his responsibility.He does not feel, 18 months sober that he has anymore work to do towrd trust or whatever. He doesnt drink, he says, he works, and that is enough.
Not for me and not for our son.
But he comes back and says he figured it all out, he knows now that it was wrong to be this way or that. But the revolving door is now inoperable.
All I can say to you is, with my RAH sober, I have put him out more than before when he was a drunk. The issues dont just go away. I made mistakes...primarily in being lax in the idea that he would need to earn trust and be consistent in order to rejoin the family. He took advantage of that, what I thought was being unconditionally loving...Why did he do that?
Because he is an addict.
Just from experience and trial and error on my part, I would suggest you make the decision and get really solid with it. No drinking in the house. NO being silly, or sickly drunk while in the house. And keep reminding yourself how much easier it is without that, how much clearer and lighter your days are without that muck in the mix. And for the kids, as well.
And do not go back on that boundary. Just my experience. And I am no master at it, either. But, I could have saved years of stress and pain, if I had listened to what some people on this forum and in my group told me back then.
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
You don't need a reason to "make it work"; you need permission to leave.
And you have it. You don't even need to ask. You always have permission to save yourself -- and especially your children -- from a toxic situation.
Having an alcoholic parent is difficult. I see it in my kids every day. But the advantage to not living with him every day is that when they are with me, they have a healthy, solid home where they can have a soft landing. Only now can they start pulling on the threads in that ball of yarn that is their very confused feelings for their father. Back when we were living with him, we were too busy walking on eggshells and minding our Ps and Qs so as not to set him off. Freedom from that has given all of us the freedom to feel -- which is painful -- and sort through our feelings -- which is necessary.
And you have it. You don't even need to ask. You always have permission to save yourself -- and especially your children -- from a toxic situation.
Having an alcoholic parent is difficult. I see it in my kids every day. But the advantage to not living with him every day is that when they are with me, they have a healthy, solid home where they can have a soft landing. Only now can they start pulling on the threads in that ball of yarn that is their very confused feelings for their father. Back when we were living with him, we were too busy walking on eggshells and minding our Ps and Qs so as not to set him off. Freedom from that has given all of us the freedom to feel -- which is painful -- and sort through our feelings -- which is necessary.
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by lillamy
You don't need a reason to "make it work"; you need permission to leave.
And you have it. You don't even need to ask. You always have permission to save yourself
And you have it. You don't even need to ask. You always have permission to save yourself
In my recovery path, one of the great accomplishments in my life has been in giving myself permissions I wouldn't previously have given myself. Permission, for example, to feel what I genuinely feel without second-guessing my feelings. Permission to look at facts and see what IS THERE, not what somebody tells me is there. Permission to look out for myself and not allow toxic influences to remain active near me. Permission to draw a line in the sand, and hold the line. Permission to make a tough decision. Permission to wait until I feel I'm ready for something. All sorts of permissions, looking out for MY best interests.
I'd just like to point out permissions, in light of the highlighted quote I selected. I'd encourage you to give yourself permissions. For example, you have sustained years of damage due to his drinking. You are actually free to walk away right now, due to THAT, even if he does engage in treatment. You are free to be angry because ten days of abstaining does not erase years of damage. You have BEEN that loving and supportive wife all those years, and don't owe him any promises out into the future. You can give yourself permission to see that ultimately alcoholism damaged the family enough to the point of disruption, not you. Allow yourself the effects of history, not just ten days, and be fair to yourself what you should own, and what isn't yours to own.
Part of true recovery for an addict is also a change in attitude, a shift away from self-centered thinking and behaviors, a willingness to look inside and remedy not only a substance addiction but also the damage that ensued.
You are free to distance yourself from this process until you, YOU, feel comfortable seeing and feeling whether "recovery" will result in your life being compatible with a person. You don't have to stand in the raining shrapnel; you can stand well apart physically, emotionally, legally and see if "recovery" results in something you wish to integrate into your life.
Alcoholism is a systems disease; it weakens and distorts not only the alcoholic, but the people in their life. Therefore recovery from alcoholism is required from all these people.
Recovery for a loved one of an addict entails learning to find your center, and protect yourself from damaging people and behaviors - learning to give yourself permission to do whatever it takes to foster good mental health in yourself and manage your environment (people, places, and things) to ensure a healthy place for yourself and your kids.
You are free to make your own choices - what is healthy for you and your kids, regardless what he does or doesn't do in his "recovery." (in quotes because the only way to see if it's real is to take time and see what results - the proof is in the pudding, and that just takes time to establish a track record one way or another about whether a person will truly embrace fundamental change in their life and attitudes)
You are not obligated to make any of your choices based on what he does. You are of course free to consider what he does as you decide your choices, but the choices are yours to make. You are only hostage to his choices and attitudes if you submit yourself to them.
I'd just like to point out permissions, in light of the highlighted quote I selected. I'd encourage you to give yourself permissions. For example, you have sustained years of damage due to his drinking. You are actually free to walk away right now, due to THAT, even if he does engage in treatment. You are free to be angry because ten days of abstaining does not erase years of damage. You have BEEN that loving and supportive wife all those years, and don't owe him any promises out into the future. You can give yourself permission to see that ultimately alcoholism damaged the family enough to the point of disruption, not you. Allow yourself the effects of history, not just ten days, and be fair to yourself what you should own, and what isn't yours to own.
Part of true recovery for an addict is also a change in attitude, a shift away from self-centered thinking and behaviors, a willingness to look inside and remedy not only a substance addiction but also the damage that ensued.
You are free to distance yourself from this process until you, YOU, feel comfortable seeing and feeling whether "recovery" will result in your life being compatible with a person. You don't have to stand in the raining shrapnel; you can stand well apart physically, emotionally, legally and see if "recovery" results in something you wish to integrate into your life.
Alcoholism is a systems disease; it weakens and distorts not only the alcoholic, but the people in their life. Therefore recovery from alcoholism is required from all these people.
Recovery for a loved one of an addict entails learning to find your center, and protect yourself from damaging people and behaviors - learning to give yourself permission to do whatever it takes to foster good mental health in yourself and manage your environment (people, places, and things) to ensure a healthy place for yourself and your kids.
You are free to make your own choices - what is healthy for you and your kids, regardless what he does or doesn't do in his "recovery." (in quotes because the only way to see if it's real is to take time and see what results - the proof is in the pudding, and that just takes time to establish a track record one way or another about whether a person will truly embrace fundamental change in their life and attitudes)
You are not obligated to make any of your choices based on what he does. You are of course free to consider what he does as you decide your choices, but the choices are yours to make. You are only hostage to his choices and attitudes if you submit yourself to them.
Originally Posted by m1k3
One little reminder, it's going to get worse. As long as they are drinking the crazy train will continue to pick up speed.
As they say in Al-Anon, let go or be dragged.
Your friend,
As they say in Al-Anon, let go or be dragged.
Your friend,
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 40
Thanks guys! On days like today, when he's not drinking, it's so easy to say "it's not that bad", but when he is drinking, it's a whole different story. We have counselling on Wednesday, so I think I'll bring this all up again, and set that boundary for real this time. I've always been saying it in passing, and I feel like I haven't been straight with it.
He's a great dad and a great person when he's sober. I feel like I'm being untrue to my "till death do us part" marriage vows. I think al-anon, and spending more time here, will make me think, less often, that I'm crazy.
So glad I joined here.
He's a great dad and a great person when he's sober. I feel like I'm being untrue to my "till death do us part" marriage vows. I think al-anon, and spending more time here, will make me think, less often, that I'm crazy.
So glad I joined here.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 40
Ugh. Going over my old posts. A year and a half later and I'm still in the same place. WTF. Really. I need to make some hard and fast decisions.
Now how do I make him leave? He can't afford this house without me, I can do it without him. I just need to get rid of him so I don't have to uproot the kids.
Now how do I make him leave? He can't afford this house without me, I can do it without him. I just need to get rid of him so I don't have to uproot the kids.
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 490
I made mine leave by detaching (without love and badly, but hey, my goal was to MAKE him leave).
I no longer listened to his crap.
I no longer tolerated or believed his lies.
I sent him an email at least once a week telling him I would not tolerate his drunken abuse any longer and that his "tummy problems" were alcoholic scours.
I did my own thing.
I refused to be in public with him.
I laughed at his drunken ramblings and said stuff like "STFU you are drunk". "You are drunk leave me the F alone".
It wasn't an Al Anon approved way of getting him out and I don't think Al Anon would endorse any such methods of getting a drunk to leave, but it worked. Took about 2? years to make it happen (I'm trying to forget the timeline as it was intense and horrid).
Not recommending my method just my ES&H.
I no longer listened to his crap.
I no longer tolerated or believed his lies.
I sent him an email at least once a week telling him I would not tolerate his drunken abuse any longer and that his "tummy problems" were alcoholic scours.
I did my own thing.
I refused to be in public with him.
I laughed at his drunken ramblings and said stuff like "STFU you are drunk". "You are drunk leave me the F alone".
It wasn't an Al Anon approved way of getting him out and I don't think Al Anon would endorse any such methods of getting a drunk to leave, but it worked. Took about 2? years to make it happen (I'm trying to forget the timeline as it was intense and horrid).
Not recommending my method just my ES&H.
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
When mine refused to leave I spoke to an attorney. She helped me find a way.
In my state you simply file for divorce and request temporary use of the family home and temporary custody. The final arrangements are hashed out in the divorce settlement. If you decide not to divorce, you simply don't follow through. With the temporary order he could leave on his own, or with a police escort, but he would be leaving.
In my state you simply file for divorce and request temporary use of the family home and temporary custody. The final arrangements are hashed out in the divorce settlement. If you decide not to divorce, you simply don't follow through. With the temporary order he could leave on his own, or with a police escort, but he would be leaving.
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
Ditto thumper. Lawyer was actually incredulous when I said I didn't want the house - he had assumed I would and asked several times
If I was sure and said it would be easy if I wanted it because it would mean more stability for the kids...
If I was sure and said it would be easy if I wanted it because it would mean more stability for the kids...
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
Personally I think it's much worse for children to be around an active alcoholic. They are the real victims in this. Like alcoholics, we codependents are blinded by denial and rationalization. Here's something that helped me get a reality check: "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." God bless........
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