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How To Deal with AV--Specific Advice?

Old 04-27-2012, 01:25 AM
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How To Deal with AV--Specific Advice?

Just looking for advice on how to deal with that thought/feelings of "what the frig?", "who cares", "its not that bad", "its just a bit", or "I'll deal with it later" voice? I've read Rational Recovery and understand it to be the addictive voice. That makes sense. We have other tapes in our heads as well and perhaps some of us pushed the play button on the addictive tape at some point?

I know many will say the answer is to address it by "working your program". But can you be more specific about HOW to deal with these thoughts? How do you change that thinking of who cares, to it totally matters in this moment! What are the steps to change it. Be specific not just go to meetings, get a sponsor! Thanks!
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:35 AM
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Hello fellow boatie!
I'm in the South seas too, a bit too far South, getting a bit chilly round here.

I guess, if you are in fact an alcoholic, you are somewhere in the research phase. You ask a very big question which really has a very big answer. The first things to try are probably those that don't involve AA or God or spirituality. Learn to quiet the AV, think through the drink, consider the consequences, distract yourself by playing games, talking to friends, identify your triggers and eliminate them from your life, use your will power and exercise your power of choice. Read helpful books and above all believe in yourself. This seems to be one path, but it was a bit beyond me, I seemed to have slid a bit far down the scale.

Perhaps you are asking how can you get into a position where you can deal with alcohol like any other toxic item, to be generally uninterested in drinking, when tempted to recoil as if from a hot flame, to be in a position of neutrality, safe and protected, to feel like the problem has gone, that it no longer exists.
I seem to have managed to achieve this by taking the 12 steps of AA. I draw a big distinction here, because I see you are not impressed with slogans. The meetings are not the programme, they are the fellowship. The programme is not MY programme, it is the AA programme as spelled out in the book Alcoholics Anonymous. A good sponsor will help you through the steps, that is their job. They are not your God or permanent life coach.

The change of thinking is what we call a spiritual awakening which is the sole result of taking all 12 steps. Another definition of spiritual awakening is a change of personality sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism.

The How to take the steps is in the first 164 pages of the big book. At only 164 pages, iti is probably the shortest answer to your question in book form.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:43 AM
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I found the technique of urge surfing helped me - I'd long considered that my feelings were an imperative - it was important to me to realise that I didn't need to act on my feelings and thoughts..I could actually remove myself, to varying extents, from what I was feeling.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...e-surfing.html

And this is not a dig but...I found it incredibly hard to deal with cravings thoughts and rationalisations when I was still drinking.

Any amount of alcohol in my system, however small, sent me 'off to the races' and really made logic very difficult to process...it was all very visceral for me.

I think you'll find it easier to deal with the inner babble once you're not drinking at all.

D
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Old 04-27-2012, 03:29 AM
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I can't add anything to what Gottalife beautifully said....Other than it worked for me and it took this chronic alcoholic far too long to figure out that surrendering to win was the easier softer way.
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Old 04-27-2012, 04:00 AM
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Hi there! What a great question.

For me, how I was physically and felt emotionally and how I thought mentally were intertwined. I couldn't change how I think and felt until I changed how I was physically.

I couldn't deal with my AV's lies and arguments, but I could deal with not putting booze in my mouth.

A key in early recovery for me was physically making sure I got to bed sober. It didn't matter how I felt emotionally or what I was thinking mentally. I just needed to get to bed physically sober.

One Night at a Time. lol

Specific coping behaviors: lots of sweaty physical exercise, lots of scheduled non-drinking time with people after work, drinking lots and lots of fizzy water and eating ice cream.

Waking up sober meant starting the day without a hangover and crushing dread and despair. That was the start of another successful sober day.
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Old 04-27-2012, 04:20 AM
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I agree with everything Dee said.

I had firmly believed that I had to act on thoughts that came through my mind. Once I understood that they were just thoughts, everything came together for me. I could recognize the thought, see it for what it was, and dismiss it. Your thoughts have no control over you.
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Old 04-27-2012, 04:24 AM
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I think the drink through...

I did this last night when I was deciding NOT to buy a beer before I got on the train after work.

The AV said all the things you mentioned -- "oh it's just one," "who cares anyway," etc.

But I focused on remembering why I was quitting. I knew it wouldn't be just one. One beer last night would've led to me getting falling down drunk at some future point, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next week, but sometime in the future. I KNOW this now, because I've tried and failed at moderation enough times that I'm 100% sure it's not going to work for me.

So before you take that first drink, I guess my advice is to think through where it's likely to lead you, not just in the immediate future, but later on as well.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:26 AM
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I'm working on reminding myself that every day I don't drink is a day further from the last one and each time I don't pick up, the physical/mental craving will become less of an imperative.

Also, someone once said to me "Every time you get a craving and don't pick up, you grow." I want to grow.
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Old 04-27-2012, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Chakaido View Post
Just looking for advice on how to deal with that thought/feelings of "what the frig?", "who cares", "its not that bad", "its just a bit", or "I'll deal with it later" voice?
For me, I had to ask: Why am I willing to carelessly let my life and the lives of my family be destroyed by an addiction? One reason was that I didn't believe I had an addiction that could cause such devastation...despite the clear evidence that it does. The other was that I thought the sober life was scary, boring, depressing and lots of other things...despite clear evidence that it wasn't.

When I have these thoughts now, I remember that I have a destructive addiction and life sober with all it's challenges is light years better than moving through the stages of progressive alcoholism. And that is the only path for an alcoholic.
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Chakaido View Post
Just looking for advice on how to deal with that thought/feelings of "what the frig?", "who cares", "its not that bad", "its just a bit", or "I'll deal with it later" voice? I've read Rational Recovery and understand it to be the addictive voice. That makes sense.
AVRT has a very specific style and method of dealing with the addictive voice, and it does not involve changing what the AV says, talking back to the AV, debating with the AV, getting rid of the AV, running away from the AV, avoiding triggers, thinking through the drink, or choosing not to drink today. So, for starters, if you want to do things the RR way, forget about all that stuff. You should also read this post:
Originally Posted by Chakaido View Post
We have other tapes in our heads as well and perhaps some of us pushed the play button on the addictive tape at some point?
See this post:


Originally Posted by Chakaido View Post
I know many will say the answer is to address it by "working your program". But can you be more specific about HOW to deal with these thoughts? How do you change that thinking of who cares, to it totally matters in this moment! What are the steps to change it. Be specific not just go to meetings, get a sponsor! Thanks!
AVRT is not about changing your addictive thinking, it is about recognizing that thinking, and then objectifying it as ego-alien ("not you"), thereby neutralizing it. This post may be instructive:

Since you mentioned the present moment, though, you may also want to read this post on the "static time" concept in AVRT, which collapses time into the eternal present moment, allowing you to not have to worry about what will happen tomorrow as it pertains to drinking or using.


I am somewhat concerned about your desire and demand for spoon-fed wisdom, but I gave some specific examples on how to deal with the AV in these posts. There are probably other posts as well, but these are the ones that just came to mind.

All this said, I recommend that you read through the entire AVRT discussion thread in the secular connections forum from the very beginning, as it will clarify some concepts for you, and that you then re-read the RR book with that additional understanding. Feel free to post any AVRT-related questions on that discussion thread.

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Old 04-27-2012, 08:11 PM
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Good point....but I don't have a family to destroy. No children, husband, home etc. I'm mid life with nothing to show for all the years I put into getting advanced degrees, working my butt off at work in the corporate world. And putting my whole-heart into relationships too-- 10 years into two long-term relationships that went no-where, and now a home in foreclosure (not my decision!)

I have family but they're not directly impacted and do nothing to assist or intervene. 3/4 of them know I've had drinking issues and done nothing to intervene.

So this is what I keep bumping up against --failure from my perspective. Others would look at my life and see great successes, but not in my books. I often think what is the point if I do have 3-4 drinks a day then? It is not getting worse, and no health issues as yet (knock on wood). It takes the edge off of my life of going nowhere fast! But something needs to change and looking for answers.

How do I establish meaning in my life? Until I do I'm not having anything to strive or live for. Maybe I need to go to a detox/treatment/wellness retreat to get collected? Can anyone recommend any with more of a wellness focus?

Oh and its my birthday today so sorry if I'm a little introspective and sarcastic about things. Yes, now 44 years with nothing to show for all the hard work I've put in! <sighs>

Originally Posted by raindancer11 View Post
For me, I had to ask: Why am I willing to carelessly let my life and the lives of my family be destroyed by an addiction? One reason was that I didn't believe I had an addiction that could cause such devastation...despite the clear evidence that it does. The other was that I thought the sober life was scary, boring, depressing and lots of other things...despite clear evidence that it wasn't.

When I have these thoughts now, I remember that I have a destructive addiction and life sober with all it's challenges is light years better than moving through the stages of progressive alcoholism. And that is the only path for an alcoholic.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:12 PM
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Good point....but I don't have a family to destroy. No children, husband, home etc. I'm mid life with nothing to show for all the years I put into getting advanced degrees, working my butt off at work in the corporate world. And putting my whole-heart into relationships too-- 10 years into two long-term relationships that went no-where, and now a home in foreclosure (not my decision!)

I have family but they're not directly impacted and do nothing to assist or intervene. 3/4 of them know I've had drinking issues.

So this is what I keep bumping up against --failure. I often think what is the point if I do have 3-4 drinks a day then? It is not getting worse, and no health issues as yet (knock on wood). It takes the edge off of my life of going nowhere fast! But something needs to change and looking for answers.

How do I establish meaning in my life? Until I do I'm not having anything to strive or live for. Maybe I need to go to a detox/treatment/wellness retreat to get collected? Can anyone recommend any with more of a wellness focus?

Oh and its my birthday today so sorry if I'm a little introspective and sarcastic about things. Yes, now 44 years with nothing to show for all the hard work I've put in! <sighs>

Originally Posted by raindancer11 View Post
For me, I had to ask: Why am I willing to carelessly let my life and the lives of my family be destroyed by an addiction? One reason was that I didn't believe I had an addiction that could cause such devastation...despite the clear evidence that it does. The other was that I thought the sober life was scary, boring, depressing and lots of other things...despite clear evidence that it wasn't.

When I have these thoughts now, I remember that I have a destructive addiction and life sober with all it's challenges is light years better than moving through the stages of progressive alcoholism. And that is the only path for an alcoholic.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:20 PM
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you have your health, and that's more important than anything. happy birthday btw.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:23 PM
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Spoon fed? Interesting interpretation, as if to imply I'm not willing to do the work? If I wasn't willing to do any work I'd be dead by now, not have a job, etc. I think that's a pretty good testimonial so far! :-)

I'm just asking for some specific direction as you've done here vs general 'following AA', "work your program" and other slogans and generalisations that aren't helpful if you're not following AA. Thank you!

As mentioned, we don't have AA meetings I can go to easily in town. Certainly open to online meetings though. I tried to find one on Wednesday here as it said there was a meeting, but didn't see any meeting times etc.
Perhaps they're not offered at this site very often.

Can anyone advice where an online meeting list exists for this site or others?
Thanks! I'll keep looking in the meantime as well.


"I am somewhat concerned about your desire and demand for spoon-fed wisdom, but I gave some specific examples on how to deal with the AV in these posts. There are probably other posts as well, but these are the ones that just came to mind."
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:51 PM
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our chat meetings are generally topic driven meetings about recovery and not online AA meetings

There are online AA meetings available on the web tho and I'm sure someone will give you a link Chakaido

D
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Chakaido View Post
Spoon fed? Interesting interpretation, as if to imply I'm not willing to do the work?
Addicted people are a peculiar bunch. You'd be surprised at how many people ask me questions, pretending that they've read the Rational Recovery book and didn't understand it, when in fact, they've only gone through the 15-minute crash course. I've lost track of how many asked about a book on tape so they could listen to it in the car on the way to work as opposed to actually — (gasp!) — reading.

Originally Posted by Chakaido View Post
If I wasn't willing to do any work I'd be dead by now, not have a job, etc. I think that's a pretty good testimonial so far! :-)
That's a good attitude, Chakaido. Always remember, unnatural, unhealthy dependence is your real problem here, and more dependence won't solve it. The more you can do for yourself, the better off you'll be, and the better you'll feel about yourself.

Originally Posted by Chakaido View Post
I'm just asking for some specific direction as you've done here vs general 'following AA', "work your program" and other slogans and generalisations that aren't helpful if you're not following AA. Thank you!
You're welcome. I don't do slogans.
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Chakaido View Post
How do I establish meaning in my life? Until I do I'm not having anything to strive or live for.
I remember being at a point where I knew I needed to stop but the thought of having to deal with the realities of life sober was so scary that I kept putting off the actual quitting. When I finally did quit, it was because I had faith that the sober life was better. And it is. Much of my distress, lack of meaning and so on was directly caused by drinking and the set of beliefs I was holding on to.

I will just say that I don't wake up and wish I was still drinking but when I was drinking, I would wake up every day and wish I could quit. I'm grateful to the people here on SR for telling me how it really is so I could finally quit and begin to enjoy living again.

Birthdays are hard. I'm around the same age as you and felt as you do that something needs to change. It's good that you are continuing to post and ask for help. There were some posts here on SR that were a catalyst for my change. I suspect it can be the same for you.
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Chakaido View Post
How do I establish meaning in my life? Until I do I'm not having anything to strive or live for. Maybe I need to go to a detox/treatment/wellness retreat to get collected? Can anyone recommend any with more of a wellness focus?

Oh and its my birthday today so sorry if I'm a little introspective and sarcastic about things. Yes, now 44 years with nothing to show for all the hard work I've put in! <sighs>
Happy birthday Chakaido, I hope you have a good day.

On your question about rehabs, from what I have seen round here where I live that is, wellness is not really part of the focus. There are organisations that run spiritual retreats, I believe we have a monastry here that runs them. They seem to be more or less secular in nature and provide a great space for reflection and a little spiritual guidance is provided if required. I relate sprituality to having meaning in my life. Perhaps you can find something like this where you live. it doesn't really have anything to do with alcoholism, but more a chance for you to reflect in peace.

God bless,
Mike H
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Old 04-28-2012, 05:50 AM
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This is my understanding and what I do. Do not engage the AV. Giving it any attention, even writing about it, gives it power. It has no power unless you embody its power. Distract yourself from it and move on. Ignore it as you would a tantruming child and it will lose steam quickly.
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:12 PM
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Chakaido, please don't get antsy over TU. That guy is all AVRT, all the time, and he does it so very very well. I owe him a lot, as do many others here.

I hear that you are asking not only about AVRT and sobriety, but you are asking some deeper questions too. For me, I had to get the sobriety solid before any other introspection started to get critical mass, so I recommend the same for you.

A search for meaning in life is a deep and personal introspective journey, Chakaido. I think opening up and becoming deeply aware and mindful is very important, it has been that way for me. I can suggest some mindfulness type reading that has been very very important to me. You can pop me a PM if you'd like a look at my library.

Another thing that has worked for me is the idea of getting out of my own head, working to understand and help other folks from time to time. Chakaido, that is precisely the reason that many of us sober folks hang around here. I wish you the best in your journey.

And Happy Birthday too!
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