Oh when will it end??
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 280
Oh when will it end??
I've been doing fairly well the last few months. Backstory: my AH relapsed after a 13 yr sobriety and my life became a living hell of chaos. We are divorcing, but it took him six full months to even provide the documents that were required of him. He's fired his attorney, now drunk emails my attorney threatening and quacking. So we are just now into actual settlement negotiations.
For the record, yes I'm in Al Anon, read "Under the Influence" working my way through CoDependent No More.
And still...I feel like I'm losing my mind. So much trauma from this...he accepts a reasonable offer except for one key part: splitting off the marital appreciation part of his 401(k). My atty has been kind, respectful, reasonable with him, trying to knit together an agreement. But no, the minute he's asked to clarify his position about why he feels he should not split that retirement plan, he stomps his feet, says he's going to "direct the judge to liquidate all assets" and tries to bully my atty into giving into his thought process.
On one hand, my atty says I can walk away with the house (which was mine prior to marriage) and just let him have his way...or we go to court, driving up my legal fees. I told my atty after all I've been through, I want every cent I'm legally entitled to.
Then I question myself: maybe I should just walk away. Cut my losses. In taking this approach...all these months of trauma and all the money I've already spent would be for nothing, really. I just can't see doing this.
Am I being unreasonably vindictive to not want to let this go??? I just can't see clearly right now. I want it to be over. I also don't want the petulant two year old batsh*t crazy AH just stomp his feet and win. I think this may not be the most enlightened response...but it's how I feel. He's bullied me for the last couple years...and bullying is an art form to him now.
One thing I am a bit clearer on....if I could find a baseball bat and put it somewhere near his head...I could see doing that.....
For the record, yes I'm in Al Anon, read "Under the Influence" working my way through CoDependent No More.
And still...I feel like I'm losing my mind. So much trauma from this...he accepts a reasonable offer except for one key part: splitting off the marital appreciation part of his 401(k). My atty has been kind, respectful, reasonable with him, trying to knit together an agreement. But no, the minute he's asked to clarify his position about why he feels he should not split that retirement plan, he stomps his feet, says he's going to "direct the judge to liquidate all assets" and tries to bully my atty into giving into his thought process.
On one hand, my atty says I can walk away with the house (which was mine prior to marriage) and just let him have his way...or we go to court, driving up my legal fees. I told my atty after all I've been through, I want every cent I'm legally entitled to.
Then I question myself: maybe I should just walk away. Cut my losses. In taking this approach...all these months of trauma and all the money I've already spent would be for nothing, really. I just can't see doing this.
Am I being unreasonably vindictive to not want to let this go??? I just can't see clearly right now. I want it to be over. I also don't want the petulant two year old batsh*t crazy AH just stomp his feet and win. I think this may not be the most enlightened response...but it's how I feel. He's bullied me for the last couple years...and bullying is an art form to him now.
One thing I am a bit clearer on....if I could find a baseball bat and put it somewhere near his head...I could see doing that.....
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,641
If he contributed to the mortgage for the house while he was with you, I could live with walking away from the 401K.
Peace of mind and freedom are kind of priceless.
Sorry that you are having a rough time. Sounds like you have been through a lot.
Anne
Peace of mind and freedom are kind of priceless.
Sorry that you are having a rough time. Sounds like you have been through a lot.
Anne
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: ny/nj
Posts: 182
I totally get what you are upset over. You are entitled to the marital portion of his 401K. It's a legal obligation. That said, there is some peace in just walking away.
When I divorced my husband (not an addict) years ago, I kept the house & released any claim on his 401K. They were valued approx equal. When we split, we were done. No waiting till retirement to collect on his 401, no having to give him profits when I eventually sell my home.
If you have the financial means, you might want to think which option (other than the scary baseball bat...) will allow you to move on without regret. If you will seethe with anger at having lost the 401, then hang on. If you can find peace sooner by letting it go, let it go.
My guess is that by stalling, your soon to be X gets to keep you entangled.
Good luck!
When I divorced my husband (not an addict) years ago, I kept the house & released any claim on his 401K. They were valued approx equal. When we split, we were done. No waiting till retirement to collect on his 401, no having to give him profits when I eventually sell my home.
If you have the financial means, you might want to think which option (other than the scary baseball bat...) will allow you to move on without regret. If you will seethe with anger at having lost the 401, then hang on. If you can find peace sooner by letting it go, let it go.
My guess is that by stalling, your soon to be X gets to keep you entangled.
Good luck!
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,163
Would you want someone demanding half of your 401k??????
I have to agree with anvil, that is mine, i earned it.
If you need money you can ask for alimony, or a settlement that can be paid over the years, or you can let it all go, and get on with your life.....
I have to agree with anvil, that is mine, i earned it.
If you need money you can ask for alimony, or a settlement that can be paid over the years, or you can let it all go, and get on with your life.....
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,754
Then I question myself: maybe I should just walk away. Cut my losses. In taking this approach...all these months of trauma and all the money I've already spent would be for nothing, really. I just can't see doing this.
It's not for nothing if it gets you where you need to be.
Me, I'd walk away. We all pay some price with alocholism.
I'd cut my loses and move on.
It's not for nothing if it gets you where you need to be.
Me, I'd walk away. We all pay some price with alocholism.
I'd cut my loses and move on.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 280
Well, to clarify, in my state, the entire discussion is marital appreciation. All assets are valued at the beginning and end of the marriage, if they have appreciated, you have to split it. It is irrelvant who contributed what to what. We both contributed, the house did not appreciate, the retirement plan did. The law is very clear on the issue.
As I've explored my own feelings with my therapist....it really isn't about the money for me as much as this: I can go to court, let the judge make a ruling and we'll be done. (however it turns out) and I'll be totally fine with it. Capitulating because listening to alcoholic quacking is just too much to bear, seems like a total fail. The real question I have to answer is do I have the strength to detach and let the legal process play out, or am I still so bound by all the negative feelings that I can't bear to continue?
That is the real issue....not assets, per se. After all I've been through up to this point, running away from the quacking seems purely self-defeating. I suppose it's fair to say I'm resistant to being bullied by a crazy alcoholic at this stage of the game.
I think I'm inclined to stand up, go to court, let the chips fall where they may.
As I've explored my own feelings with my therapist....it really isn't about the money for me as much as this: I can go to court, let the judge make a ruling and we'll be done. (however it turns out) and I'll be totally fine with it. Capitulating because listening to alcoholic quacking is just too much to bear, seems like a total fail. The real question I have to answer is do I have the strength to detach and let the legal process play out, or am I still so bound by all the negative feelings that I can't bear to continue?
That is the real issue....not assets, per se. After all I've been through up to this point, running away from the quacking seems purely self-defeating. I suppose it's fair to say I'm resistant to being bullied by a crazy alcoholic at this stage of the game.
I think I'm inclined to stand up, go to court, let the chips fall where they may.
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
What is important to you?
To me, getting the divorce over with and making sure the kids got a fair shake was all I cared about. I walked away from the assets and never regretted it. Getting out was my priority, being forced to interact with AXH was not worth it.
If this is important to you financially, by all means go for it. But if you are hoping that getting half his 401K will be a revenge that makes you feel better, you will probably be disappointed.
To me, getting the divorce over with and making sure the kids got a fair shake was all I cared about. I walked away from the assets and never regretted it. Getting out was my priority, being forced to interact with AXH was not worth it.
If this is important to you financially, by all means go for it. But if you are hoping that getting half his 401K will be a revenge that makes you feel better, you will probably be disappointed.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,163
It all comes down to how much more you are willing to endure... You and your STBXH are in what i call a pissing match. And I am here to say, there are no winners. You might end up making yourself crazy. I was in a pissing match ,on more than one occasion. I did not like it, I was loosing control of my emotions, could not think clear, made some bad choices, in the end, it was not worth it. Only you can decide, how far down the hole you want to go.
Perhaps, it's just a matter of perception. Instead of seeing it as "standing up to the bully" I would view it as "I am just done." I would accept that his role in my life is now complete, and I am free to go forward. Letting go of all the madness you have lived, will without a doubt, be a very liberating experience.
I have heard it said many times, that when someone says, " It's not about the money, IT IS."
So if it's money you want or need, by all means be prepared to do battle. From personal experience , I haved learned if you want to hurt a man, hit him in the wallet. So, I guess my next question to you would be, Is this about revenge, or getting even? Do you just want to be heard? Do you want him to understand all the pain and hurt his drinking has caused? (Ok, that was more than one question). just trying to understand, so please know I am asking gently.
Perhaps, it's just a matter of perception. Instead of seeing it as "standing up to the bully" I would view it as "I am just done." I would accept that his role in my life is now complete, and I am free to go forward. Letting go of all the madness you have lived, will without a doubt, be a very liberating experience.
I have heard it said many times, that when someone says, " It's not about the money, IT IS."
So if it's money you want or need, by all means be prepared to do battle. From personal experience , I haved learned if you want to hurt a man, hit him in the wallet. So, I guess my next question to you would be, Is this about revenge, or getting even? Do you just want to be heard? Do you want him to understand all the pain and hurt his drinking has caused? (Ok, that was more than one question). just trying to understand, so please know I am asking gently.
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by MsGrace 
Well, to clarify, in my state, the entire discussion is marital appreciation. All assets are valued at the beginning and end of the marriage, if they have appreciated, you have to split it. It is irrelvant who contributed what to what. We both contributed, the house did not appreciate, the retirement plan did. The law is very clear on the issue.
As I've explored my own feelings with my therapist....it really isn't about the money for me as much as this: I can go to court, let the judge make a ruling and we'll be done. (however it turns out) and I'll be totally fine with it. Capitulating because listening to alcoholic quacking is just too much to bear, seems like a total fail. The real question I have to answer is do I have the strength to detach and let the legal process play out, or am I still so bound by all the negative feelings that I can't bear to continue?
That is the real issue....not assets, per se. After all I've been through up to this point, running away from the quacking seems purely self-defeating. I suppose it's fair to say I'm resistant to being bullied by a crazy alcoholic at this stage of the game.
I think I'm inclined to stand up, go to court, let the chips fall where they may.
As I've explored my own feelings with my therapist....it really isn't about the money for me as much as this: I can go to court, let the judge make a ruling and we'll be done. (however it turns out) and I'll be totally fine with it. Capitulating because listening to alcoholic quacking is just too much to bear, seems like a total fail. The real question I have to answer is do I have the strength to detach and let the legal process play out, or am I still so bound by all the negative feelings that I can't bear to continue?
That is the real issue....not assets, per se. After all I've been through up to this point, running away from the quacking seems purely self-defeating. I suppose it's fair to say I'm resistant to being bullied by a crazy alcoholic at this stage of the game.
I think I'm inclined to stand up, go to court, let the chips fall where they may.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 280
Yes the key word is detach. For the record, it isn't "half of his 401(k)". It's a very small portion, but an amount that is important to me.
Regards to Marie's comment: " So if it's money you want or need, by all means be prepared to do battle. From personal experience , I have learned if you want to hurt a man, hit him in the wallet. So, I guess my next question to you would be, Is this about revenge, or getting even? Do you just want to be heard? Do you want him to understand all the pain and hurt his drinking has caused? (Ok, that was more than one question). just trying to understand, so please know I am asking gently. "
These are the very issues that I'm currently exploring with my therapist. The opportunity in participating fully in the whole process for me is that it is rich with clues about my true motivations/intentions and points in a direction for me to look for my own growth. It's a really personal decision. Yep, I want the money I'm entitled to. Yes I want to learn everything I possibly can from this entire marriage and divorce. Yep, I've got real work to do regarding my own anger issues. Yes I'm following my atty's advice on how to proceed, and he gently reminds me not to make decisions from overblown emotions. Yes I want to be heard and want my AH to understand his choices and behavior has so hurt me and also has consequences. This is the part I'm struggling with currently. Yes I'd say there is some urge for vengeance in there...and also realize that part is no-win for me. So there is the finger pointing to the work I must do. How do I need to change my mind and attitude to no longer feel the urge for him to see or "get' anything? That is my goal. Not there yet.
Regards to Marie's comment: " So if it's money you want or need, by all means be prepared to do battle. From personal experience , I have learned if you want to hurt a man, hit him in the wallet. So, I guess my next question to you would be, Is this about revenge, or getting even? Do you just want to be heard? Do you want him to understand all the pain and hurt his drinking has caused? (Ok, that was more than one question). just trying to understand, so please know I am asking gently. "
These are the very issues that I'm currently exploring with my therapist. The opportunity in participating fully in the whole process for me is that it is rich with clues about my true motivations/intentions and points in a direction for me to look for my own growth. It's a really personal decision. Yep, I want the money I'm entitled to. Yes I want to learn everything I possibly can from this entire marriage and divorce. Yep, I've got real work to do regarding my own anger issues. Yes I'm following my atty's advice on how to proceed, and he gently reminds me not to make decisions from overblown emotions. Yes I want to be heard and want my AH to understand his choices and behavior has so hurt me and also has consequences. This is the part I'm struggling with currently. Yes I'd say there is some urge for vengeance in there...and also realize that part is no-win for me. So there is the finger pointing to the work I must do. How do I need to change my mind and attitude to no longer feel the urge for him to see or "get' anything? That is my goal. Not there yet.
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
I have mixed feelings.
I'll share my thoughts in reading this thread, based on my personal experience. I am in no way recommending any specific course of action - not sure I did the right thing etc.
I let some things go when I got divorced. I needed it to end, for my own sanity. It was also a small enough amount of money (maybe 3K) that I would have ate it up in legal fee's had he chosen to fight it. I kind of doubt he would have now so that is part of my regret. I was full of fear at the time because with the kids - it seemed like a lot was hanging in the balance. I was so scared that if I upset the apple cart he'd find the resources and gumption to make things very bad and I was putting a lot at risk.
The bigger issue would have been a gamble had he fought it but I lost a lot of money. We are also a 50/50 state. He had a little over 40K in student loan debt. I was responsible for half. That is sort of the bottom line in a 50/50 state if you are married regardless of the details. We made a decision, together, that he would remain very part time for 12mos when our twins were born. The other 10 yrs of underemployment was a decision he made on his own/without my agreement. I paid most of the payments while we were married as his paycheck always went for himself. I didn't feel like I should have to pay half those loans. He got to keep the education after all
But, I did not fight that. I liquidated my entire 401K and gave him the whole thing (instead of half) - 23K to cover my 'share' of the loans.
That did get me the $ to pay off his credit card and a year of child support. Without that lump sum of cash I'd have never seen either.
Since he conveniently lost his job/got fired for drinking there was no way for him to provide medical insurance for the kids. I am responsible for their medical care. I wish that was different and I should have fought that. He should be responsible for the base medical care and I pay the co-pays. Even if he didn't live up to it I should have had it that way in the papers.
All in all I think it was smart for me to not drag this out in court because I was not/am not in a position to pay large legal fees and mentally I needed to get it over with.
I can not shake the feeling that this was an unfair way to end this marriage. I feel taken advantage of and that is not a good feeling. I spent 10+yrs allowing myself to be taken advantage of and it ended on the same note. So, that is that. It can be a tough pill to swallow even now.
I will admit to taking a small amount of pleasure in setting the record straight when his snarky, whining, entitled self said I was going to have to pay a big chunk of taxes. He got the money - he pays the taxes. IRS says so
It is over 2yrs out now I am certain that the best revenge is a life well lived. I have no need at all to get him to recognize it or anything else now, because I am living it.
I'll share my thoughts in reading this thread, based on my personal experience. I am in no way recommending any specific course of action - not sure I did the right thing etc.
I let some things go when I got divorced. I needed it to end, for my own sanity. It was also a small enough amount of money (maybe 3K) that I would have ate it up in legal fee's had he chosen to fight it. I kind of doubt he would have now so that is part of my regret. I was full of fear at the time because with the kids - it seemed like a lot was hanging in the balance. I was so scared that if I upset the apple cart he'd find the resources and gumption to make things very bad and I was putting a lot at risk.
The bigger issue would have been a gamble had he fought it but I lost a lot of money. We are also a 50/50 state. He had a little over 40K in student loan debt. I was responsible for half. That is sort of the bottom line in a 50/50 state if you are married regardless of the details. We made a decision, together, that he would remain very part time for 12mos when our twins were born. The other 10 yrs of underemployment was a decision he made on his own/without my agreement. I paid most of the payments while we were married as his paycheck always went for himself. I didn't feel like I should have to pay half those loans. He got to keep the education after all
But, I did not fight that. I liquidated my entire 401K and gave him the whole thing (instead of half) - 23K to cover my 'share' of the loans. That did get me the $ to pay off his credit card and a year of child support. Without that lump sum of cash I'd have never seen either.
Since he conveniently lost his job/got fired for drinking there was no way for him to provide medical insurance for the kids. I am responsible for their medical care. I wish that was different and I should have fought that. He should be responsible for the base medical care and I pay the co-pays. Even if he didn't live up to it I should have had it that way in the papers.
All in all I think it was smart for me to not drag this out in court because I was not/am not in a position to pay large legal fees and mentally I needed to get it over with.
I can not shake the feeling that this was an unfair way to end this marriage. I feel taken advantage of and that is not a good feeling. I spent 10+yrs allowing myself to be taken advantage of and it ended on the same note. So, that is that. It can be a tough pill to swallow even now.
I will admit to taking a small amount of pleasure in setting the record straight when his snarky, whining, entitled self said I was going to have to pay a big chunk of taxes. He got the money - he pays the taxes. IRS says so
It is over 2yrs out now I am certain that the best revenge is a life well lived. I have no need at all to get him to recognize it or anything else now, because I am living it.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,163
Msgrace,
After reading your response, I could not help revisiting my own life, the year was 1995, I was caught up in a nasty divorce. So much anger and pain. While the love of my life was not an alcoholic, he was a work alcoholic. Selfish, self centered, could not quit, absent from our life, daily excuses, so similiar to the traits of an active alkie.
What it all came down to was forgiveness. It was a painful journey, but i had to choose to forgive, and to forgive, at that moment, meant that he could no longer hurt me any longer. I will never forget his actions, choices or decisions. They are stored in my head, they will always remind me of what I never want to live or feel again. The wisdom I now carry from this chapter of my life, is priceless. I could never put a dollar figure on such a life lesson.
You truly are holding all the cards here. Forgiveness, allowed me to live my life, free of guilt, the pain and anger. I was no longer suffocating. I could breathe again....... Wishing you peace..
After reading your response, I could not help revisiting my own life, the year was 1995, I was caught up in a nasty divorce. So much anger and pain. While the love of my life was not an alcoholic, he was a work alcoholic. Selfish, self centered, could not quit, absent from our life, daily excuses, so similiar to the traits of an active alkie.
What it all came down to was forgiveness. It was a painful journey, but i had to choose to forgive, and to forgive, at that moment, meant that he could no longer hurt me any longer. I will never forget his actions, choices or decisions. They are stored in my head, they will always remind me of what I never want to live or feel again. The wisdom I now carry from this chapter of my life, is priceless. I could never put a dollar figure on such a life lesson.
You truly are holding all the cards here. Forgiveness, allowed me to live my life, free of guilt, the pain and anger. I was no longer suffocating. I could breathe again....... Wishing you peace..
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Alaska
Posts: 2,913
Sending hugs, MsGrace. I completely understand this:
I don't really have an answer for your question on changing our mind / attitude to no longer want to see him "get" anything. I still have to remind myself that just because I (and most likely - hopefully - most of the rational world) thinks behaving *this* way is reasonable, doesn't mean that AXH will decide to behave reasonably. It feels rather cynical, but I have to tell myself: If I don't expect AXH to behave like a rational person, I won't be disappointed when he inevitably behaves like an a--; however, IF he ever does behave in a reasonable manner, I will get to be pleasantly surprised. I'd REALLY like to be pleasantly surprised. Hasn't really happened yet, but I'd rather choose that....
(And with that said, I think I might go start a new thread to rant about AXH's shoddy behavior these past few weeks and how flabbergasted I am.... Just to get it out....
)
Hang in there, MsGrace.
Originally Posted by MsGrace
Yes I'd say there is some urge for vengeance in there...and also realize that part is no-win for me. So there is the finger pointing to the work I must do. How do I need to change my mind and attitude to no longer feel the urge for him to see or "get' anything? That is my goal. Not there yet.
(And with that said, I think I might go start a new thread to rant about AXH's shoddy behavior these past few weeks and how flabbergasted I am.... Just to get it out....
)Hang in there, MsGrace.
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 302
I think, for me, once you get past the principle of the thing, how much money are we really talking about?
I mediated with my XAH, mostly because my lawyer didn't give him a choice, and his lawyer was more reasonable than he was. With both houses underwater, and him not working in 5 years, we ended up splitting things (he kept his 401K, I kept mine. He kept his student loans, I kept mine. I got both underwater houses. He got out without additional debt and got alimony, which we negotiated.)
I went back and forth to both extremes ("I'll pay whatever he wants" vs "That bleeping idiot isn't getting Anything!") and ultimately, thanks to the leadup to the mediation taking 9 months, I did a lot of soul searching and healing in that time.
Ultimately, I came up with a mental dollar figure that I was comfortable "throwing away." And if the lawyer fees were going to approach that number, it wasn't worth fighting about.
For me, it was about the dollar amount of his student loans. If I had to assume that debt to be free, so be it. But it took me quite awhile to get to that point.
Getting to the point where I was able to say "I just don't care - I want this over with" was a huge thing.
Good luck
I mediated with my XAH, mostly because my lawyer didn't give him a choice, and his lawyer was more reasonable than he was. With both houses underwater, and him not working in 5 years, we ended up splitting things (he kept his 401K, I kept mine. He kept his student loans, I kept mine. I got both underwater houses. He got out without additional debt and got alimony, which we negotiated.)
I went back and forth to both extremes ("I'll pay whatever he wants" vs "That bleeping idiot isn't getting Anything!") and ultimately, thanks to the leadup to the mediation taking 9 months, I did a lot of soul searching and healing in that time.
Ultimately, I came up with a mental dollar figure that I was comfortable "throwing away." And if the lawyer fees were going to approach that number, it wasn't worth fighting about.
For me, it was about the dollar amount of his student loans. If I had to assume that debt to be free, so be it. But it took me quite awhile to get to that point.
Getting to the point where I was able to say "I just don't care - I want this over with" was a huge thing.
Good luck
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
There is always the old saying...
Why are divorces so expensive?..........Because they are worth it.
Remember the end goal. My end goal was to live a life with peace, serenity, financial security, solitude, relief, hope, and no alcoholism. Getting divorced got me started on that goal. 20K did not.
Why are divorces so expensive?..........Because they are worth it.
Remember the end goal. My end goal was to live a life with peace, serenity, financial security, solitude, relief, hope, and no alcoholism. Getting divorced got me started on that goal. 20K did not.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 280
Originally Posted by Thumper
There is always the old saying...
Why are divorces so expensive?..........Because they are worth it.
Remember the end goal. My end goal was to live a life with peace, serenity, financial security, solitude, relief, hope, and no alcoholism. Getting divorced got me started on that goal. 20K did not.
Why are divorces so expensive?..........Because they are worth it.
Remember the end goal. My end goal was to live a life with peace, serenity, financial security, solitude, relief, hope, and no alcoholism. Getting divorced got me started on that goal. 20K did not.
I've instructed my atty not to expose me to any of his communication directly. And I'll just let it play out however it is going to...
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