Ecumenical Recovery
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 5,678
Ecumenical Recovery
There seems to be soo much tension and controversy about the right way to recover.
It took me many years to get to this point (of actually quitting) and a slight part of that delay (excuses, excuses) was fear of AA (Irrational fears based on my super atheist upbringing). I never knew about AVRT or SMART but they wouldn't have scared me. But Jack Trimpey... angry, angry man, against AA. And for good reason from his perspective, not from others.
It's good that whatever program or method you use inspires confidence but I'm not sure that that confidence should come from attacking other peoples ideas.
Personally I like some of the AA stuff, not least because I assume that if something is older it's better. But I also like AVRT, it works better for me, and I'm working on reading everything else I can get my hands on which will keep me sober.
So... the question is, why can't we have a universal recovery method that doesn't make people feel excluded, like an Ecumenical church, where people can pick bits of methods they like and leave the bits they don't like. Each to their own. Surely this would be better for newcomers who have no idea which way to turn. I'm not saying this should allow for a soft option for anyone but it may get rid of the us v them mentality. People should still be confronted if their thought patterns may lead them back to drinking, but in a more nurturing environment, that doesn't exclude them on the basis of lack of intellectualism or spirituallity.
:ghug3
Surely it doesn't matter how you get there as long as you get there...
It took me many years to get to this point (of actually quitting) and a slight part of that delay (excuses, excuses) was fear of AA (Irrational fears based on my super atheist upbringing). I never knew about AVRT or SMART but they wouldn't have scared me. But Jack Trimpey... angry, angry man, against AA. And for good reason from his perspective, not from others.
It's good that whatever program or method you use inspires confidence but I'm not sure that that confidence should come from attacking other peoples ideas.
Personally I like some of the AA stuff, not least because I assume that if something is older it's better. But I also like AVRT, it works better for me, and I'm working on reading everything else I can get my hands on which will keep me sober.
So... the question is, why can't we have a universal recovery method that doesn't make people feel excluded, like an Ecumenical church, where people can pick bits of methods they like and leave the bits they don't like. Each to their own. Surely this would be better for newcomers who have no idea which way to turn. I'm not saying this should allow for a soft option for anyone but it may get rid of the us v them mentality. People should still be confronted if their thought patterns may lead them back to drinking, but in a more nurturing environment, that doesn't exclude them on the basis of lack of intellectualism or spirituallity.
:ghug3
Surely it doesn't matter how you get there as long as you get there...
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Near Scranton PA
Posts: 424
From a logical perspective, you'd think we could but, when you get under the hood, finding the key to creating the recovery from addiction is a deeply personal thing. Some alcoholics are hyper-religious and the only recovery that makes sense to them is spiritually based. Their addiction won't answer to logic. Some alcoholics are ardent atheists and a spiritual comopnent makes no sense in their recovery.
Maybe the best we can hope for is civility?
Maybe the best we can hope for is civility?
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
That sounds great......I won't be holding my breath. LOL
There just ARE ppl in AA who think it's the only way....and they're convinced. There just ARE ppl who think their was is better than AA..and they're convinced. There just ARE ppl who are convinced someone can do any program and recover..and they're convinced.
As an AA person, I hear a fair amount of "complaints" that the AA ppl think their way is the only way when that's not really what most ppl in AA think (imo). What gets lost in the translation from AA ppl to non-aa ppl is that IF you can quit on your own great....quit. If you can't quit though, AA might be your only option as it's the only program I know of or have ever heard of that will guarantee sobriety for the ppl who CAN'T stop no-matter-what. So while there are many ways to quit, for someone who CAN'T quit and who's only option is a spiritual solution.....then their only option is a spiritual solution....yanno?
Bottom line.......we all have opinions. Some of us just hang onto them a whole lot tighter than we need to and being a part of the human condition.....I don't suspect that's gonna change anytime soon no matter how nice it would be.
There just ARE ppl in AA who think it's the only way....and they're convinced. There just ARE ppl who think their was is better than AA..and they're convinced. There just ARE ppl who are convinced someone can do any program and recover..and they're convinced.
As an AA person, I hear a fair amount of "complaints" that the AA ppl think their way is the only way when that's not really what most ppl in AA think (imo). What gets lost in the translation from AA ppl to non-aa ppl is that IF you can quit on your own great....quit. If you can't quit though, AA might be your only option as it's the only program I know of or have ever heard of that will guarantee sobriety for the ppl who CAN'T stop no-matter-what. So while there are many ways to quit, for someone who CAN'T quit and who's only option is a spiritual solution.....then their only option is a spiritual solution....yanno?
Bottom line.......we all have opinions. Some of us just hang onto them a whole lot tighter than we need to and being a part of the human condition.....I don't suspect that's gonna change anytime soon no matter how nice it would be.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada. About as far south as you can get
Posts: 4,768
Originally Posted by hypochondriac 
So... the question is, why can't we have a universal recovery method that doesn't make people feel excluded, like an Ecumenical church, where people can pick bits of methods they like and leave the bits they don't like. Each to their own. Surely this would be better for newcomers who have no idea which way to turn. I'm not saying this should allow for a soft option for anyone but it may get rid of the us v them mentality. People should still be confronted if their thought patterns may lead them back to drinking, but in a more nurturing environment, that doesn't exclude them on the basis of lack of intellectualism or spirituallity.
All the best.
Bob R
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I see two problems. The first of which is that there simply isn't any one program that's going to work for everyone. The second problem is that the success the various organizations achieve is generally a result of the whole of the program, rather than a sampling of its parts.
As addicts, we often don't understand what is necessary to break us out of the cycle (Obviously. Otherwise we'd have fixed ourselves a long time ago!). So giving ourselves the freedom to pick out portions we like, & discard the rest, may be exactly what we don't need. Exercises we may have started out thinking were pointless are found later to be extremely beneficial. That only comes as a result of experience & our personal evolution.
That's not to say you can't make your own choices. But when I make those choices, I do so with the understanding that my thinking might not be correct due to my perspective. That it's possible there is a point to the methods I question, that I have yet to get. So no matter how wacky they may seem on the surface, I do try to look underneath the hood before discounting them. And even then - I may very well be wrong.
Take AA for example. I do not find the act of admitting I'm powerless over addiction to be beneficial, or honest, personally speaking. But knowing there are many who have found success in the program, I figure there's got to be something to it. So instead of knocking it, I try to figure out - based on my belief system - why it works (and why it also fails). In this example, I believe this admission allows you to divorce yourself from the illusion that one can become a 'normal drinker', which turns your focus from a future involving alcohol, to one devoid of it. That doesn't mean you're actually powerless (in my opinion). It just means that in order to set yourself up for success, it's in one's best interest to redefine the way we relate to alcohol right from the beginning. Again, that's just my opinion. But I could take this idea & run with it, where I just couldn't swallow the 'powerless me' bit. I could use this way of thinking to 'jive' with AA.
Finally, whatever program you choose, I feel it's mandatory it's something you can believe in. That doesn't mean you have to understand it 100% from the start. But you need enough faith to see you through the times of doubt. I don't think any one program will allow for that with all people.
As addicts, we often don't understand what is necessary to break us out of the cycle (Obviously. Otherwise we'd have fixed ourselves a long time ago!). So giving ourselves the freedom to pick out portions we like, & discard the rest, may be exactly what we don't need. Exercises we may have started out thinking were pointless are found later to be extremely beneficial. That only comes as a result of experience & our personal evolution.
That's not to say you can't make your own choices. But when I make those choices, I do so with the understanding that my thinking might not be correct due to my perspective. That it's possible there is a point to the methods I question, that I have yet to get. So no matter how wacky they may seem on the surface, I do try to look underneath the hood before discounting them. And even then - I may very well be wrong.
Take AA for example. I do not find the act of admitting I'm powerless over addiction to be beneficial, or honest, personally speaking. But knowing there are many who have found success in the program, I figure there's got to be something to it. So instead of knocking it, I try to figure out - based on my belief system - why it works (and why it also fails). In this example, I believe this admission allows you to divorce yourself from the illusion that one can become a 'normal drinker', which turns your focus from a future involving alcohol, to one devoid of it. That doesn't mean you're actually powerless (in my opinion). It just means that in order to set yourself up for success, it's in one's best interest to redefine the way we relate to alcohol right from the beginning. Again, that's just my opinion. But I could take this idea & run with it, where I just couldn't swallow the 'powerless me' bit. I could use this way of thinking to 'jive' with AA.
Finally, whatever program you choose, I feel it's mandatory it's something you can believe in. That doesn't mean you have to understand it 100% from the start. But you need enough faith to see you through the times of doubt. I don't think any one program will allow for that with all people.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,146
If a person can't stay stopped for good on their own, then they should find a path that helps them do that. By trying the suggestions contained in that path that are recommended to allow lifelong abstinence then that should reasonably be the end of their drinking.
If they've done those things and the best they can do is a few years or less without drinking, then close that book, drop that meeting or lose that therapist and find something that works for the long haul.
Things either work or they do not. If the path we like the best doesn't work when we've followed the suggestions then despite it being so very much in line with how we'd prefer things should be in a perfect world, it's only a losing hand we shouldn't continue betting on.
If they've done those things and the best they can do is a few years or less without drinking, then close that book, drop that meeting or lose that therapist and find something that works for the long haul.
Things either work or they do not. If the path we like the best doesn't work when we've followed the suggestions then despite it being so very much in line with how we'd prefer things should be in a perfect world, it's only a losing hand we shouldn't continue betting on.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,373
why can't we have a universal recovery method
I like that people need to find their own way - to me thats what recovery is - the journey to our own self discovery - not drinking or drugging is just the jumping off point, not the destination.
My advice is try not and be bothered by all that us and them stuff - focus on what you need, and pass on what works for you to others - in time I think you'll find all the argy bargy recedes into the distance
D
Computer Experiment..Gone Bad!
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Belize
Posts: 59
Originally Posted by Dee74
That will probably come after one universal church, one universal TV programer, one universal kind of music and one universal cola
I also think what works for you is what is right. Everyone will always be different that is what makes us individuals and unique. Just be strong what ever program you choose.
BD
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 5,678
You are all, of course, completely correct. Therein lies the perils of sitting on the fence 
I haven't chosen a program exclusively (not to make it sound like dating!). And I'm not saying there should be only one method of recovery. I just don't like it when people get told they'll fail if they don't do X, Y or Z.
Thanks for all your responses!
I haven't chosen a program exclusively (not to make it sound like dating!). And I'm not saying there should be only one method of recovery. I just don't like it when people get told they'll fail if they don't do X, Y or Z.
Thanks for all your responses!
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,373
We all want to share our experience...but as I said everyone has their individual journey - we can point people to signposts and maybe even send them off in a good direction...but I know in the past I've been guilty of wanting people to walk their journey my way...
I wanted to to save people...the problem there is of course I can't save anyone else - it doesn't work like that....we have to learn our own lessons...I try to remember that now
D
I wanted to to save people...the problem there is of course I can't save anyone else - it doesn't work like that....we have to learn our own lessons...I try to remember that now
D
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,722
I'm not so sure that the problem is the programs themselves or the people in them per se. I think that for the most part the problem comes from the environment we find ourselves in, where addiction is called a disease but its treatment is regarded so differently than the treatment of any other disease.
Take migraine headaches. I get these so I know about them. There's about 20 different ways of treating the things, and different people get different results. But historically, no value judgment has been placed on a person for whom a particular treatment doesn't work. A person who isn't helped by one treatment just tries another, until they find one that works, and that's it.
Whereas with alcoholism, historically, people who haven't recovered in a particular way have been exposed to some extreme value judgments and some really rough treatment. Instead of hearing, "oh, that isn't helping, lets try something else" it's been "you're dishonest" and "you're in denial" and "you're hopeless". That sort of thing is, I think, happening less and less, but the damage has been done, and probably won't be healed for quite some time.
Take migraine headaches. I get these so I know about them. There's about 20 different ways of treating the things, and different people get different results. But historically, no value judgment has been placed on a person for whom a particular treatment doesn't work. A person who isn't helped by one treatment just tries another, until they find one that works, and that's it.
Whereas with alcoholism, historically, people who haven't recovered in a particular way have been exposed to some extreme value judgments and some really rough treatment. Instead of hearing, "oh, that isn't helping, lets try something else" it's been "you're dishonest" and "you're in denial" and "you're hopeless". That sort of thing is, I think, happening less and less, but the damage has been done, and probably won't be healed for quite some time.
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: in the shadow of the rockies
Posts: 338
For me, and i do AA/NA , one of my big stumbling blocks was my insistence that a program meet 100% of my perceived needs. Now, given that my brain was under a near constant deluge of mind altering substances , I was nowhere near a clear understanding of that "100% demand" . The word "delusional" comes to mind...
I think , for me, i had to have some measured resonance that my life was worth living. And so. like Growing Daily mentions- i had to have some faith.
As a staunch humanist secularist, i really struggled with this one at a philosophical level. Little did I know that even the deepest realms of quantum physics there is enough 'fuzzy logic' to allow an inkling of the mysterious to hangout. Look up :N=4 supersymmetric Yang-Mills (SYM) theory or its latest progeny - the five spatial dimension 'Emporer' or 2,0 theory if you want to see weird near faith based hard science LOL!
I think what happened to me was I knew i was absolutely gonna do the Jails, insitutions or Death spiral [had already done nos. 1 and 2] and i was desperate. Didn't care if there was white male protestant archaic gag me language - i read just enough to realize that some folk had already done some pretty heavy lifting about my disease - maybe their ideas of spirituality didnt quite jive with mine but i sensed that they recognized that fact and were comfortable with me finding my own way....
and i also recognized , that for me to go on living i needed a personality overhaul. The 12 steps seemed to offer a way to begin and continue that process. Also helped that it was a decidedly 'action based ' program [ i knew plenty about my ability to 'mind f*** ' myself with excuses, procrastination etc]
I have never had the slightest problem incorporating my zen taoist humanist socio boiological evolutionist stance with my recovery in AA and NA. But thats just me and my Great Big Life....
I think , for me, i had to have some measured resonance that my life was worth living. And so. like Growing Daily mentions- i had to have some faith.
As a staunch humanist secularist, i really struggled with this one at a philosophical level. Little did I know that even the deepest realms of quantum physics there is enough 'fuzzy logic' to allow an inkling of the mysterious to hangout. Look up :N=4 supersymmetric Yang-Mills (SYM) theory or its latest progeny - the five spatial dimension 'Emporer' or 2,0 theory if you want to see weird near faith based hard science LOL!
I think what happened to me was I knew i was absolutely gonna do the Jails, insitutions or Death spiral [had already done nos. 1 and 2] and i was desperate. Didn't care if there was white male protestant archaic gag me language - i read just enough to realize that some folk had already done some pretty heavy lifting about my disease - maybe their ideas of spirituality didnt quite jive with mine but i sensed that they recognized that fact and were comfortable with me finding my own way....
and i also recognized , that for me to go on living i needed a personality overhaul. The 12 steps seemed to offer a way to begin and continue that process. Also helped that it was a decidedly 'action based ' program [ i knew plenty about my ability to 'mind f*** ' myself with excuses, procrastination etc]
I have never had the slightest problem incorporating my zen taoist humanist socio boiological evolutionist stance with my recovery in AA and NA. But thats just me and my Great Big Life....
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: New England
Posts: 1,067
This is a good thread... thanks for all the viewpoints I found something in all of them! As for me... I'll try literally ANYTHING to stop drinking... I'm open to everything... simply... if I drink I will suffer and die. That simple. Not to mention all the people that I will hurt in the process. I'd pray to my big toe if that would work.
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