zorah

ok, a little rant. i go bug-eyed ballistic inside whenever i hear that chapter 5 thing about the "unfortunates" who cannot give themselves to this "simple program" because they're "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves." They were born that way, apparently. What the f---? What does that even mean? Me being me, I automatically think I must be one of them because self-condemnation is my default. This program doesn't work for everyone, first of all. Second, dishonest, self-serving but sober people are in AA like everywhere else. Honesty is a work in progress for all of us and I for one cannot ever think of anyone as constitutionally incapable of it. I wince whenever I hear that paragraph and want to run for the hills screaming.

Dee74

I used to go bug eyed about what other people believed or said too - then I realised I was free to take on board or discard whatever I wanted to.

These days, to me it's very simple Zorah - if there's something you don't like about a particular method, try something else, y'know?

D

eJoshua

I don't believe that anyone is "constitutionally incapable" of recovery, either, but I am working the 12 steps. Sometimes you have to take what you agree with and leave the best. The BB isn't the word of God.

stairs

Yeah it does sound kind of condescending. I thought it meant people who drink themselves to death because they can't admit they have a problem.
I'm working the steps too, for me.

sugarbear1

You've taken one line out of the book and are looking at it in a way that it wasn't meant to be, and that's okay. If you've read about the history of AA, you would understand what the authors were saying. They know the alcoholic well.

The solution is in working the steps, not about those others on their own path in recovery; some of those people actually have pretty good sobriety behind them. I go for me, I have support of those others in the program who are working a program of recovery, I call those others for support regularly, I have found a sponsor who I meet with weekly, I work the steps for me, I stay stopped for me. Simple, not easy.

Meetings don't keep me sober. The steps keep me sober.
You'll stay stopped, find AVRT or another program of recovery!

desertsong

I've always thought of the "unfortunates" as people who can't be honest with themselves about their drinking and end up drinking until they die. My dad was one of them. He lost his health, his law practice, his house, his cars, his friends, and most of his money. And still he kept drinking. Didn't matter how many times he was in and out of the hospital for alcohol-related illnesses/injuries ... as soon as he was back home, he was hitting the bottle again and kept it up until he was virtually comatose on his couch and had to be placed in a nursing home. Only then did he get sober (involuntarily), but alcohol had already ravaged his body and his brain beyond repair. If alcohol had been allowed in the nursing home, I'm sure he would have drank up until the moment he passed away.

Giving up the booze requires rigorous honesty with ourselves and some people just can't manage that, or don't want to for whatever reason. It IS unfortunate ... but it's reality too. I wish they could all be helped.

Sapling

Do what works for you....AA delivered everything promised and more for me....I was told to go in with an open mind....I did a little more.....I checked my ego at the door when I went in...I dropped my alcoholic nonconformist attitude and decided to take suggestions...To cooperate with my recovery rather than fight it....It's a pretty amazing program. It saved my life.

IndaMiricale

First of all, it does work 100% of the time, but only if you actually work all of it.

Whatever help you choose I wish you the best.

Terminally Unique

You guys are funny. The program never fails anyone, only people fail the program, right? Here's a program that also works 100% of the time if you follow directions precisely and to the letter.

1. Never drink.
2. If you have any thoughts that support drinking,
3. GO TO 1.

It works if you work it. Guaranteed.

Tippingpoint

I will not give myself to "this simple program". I have been brutally honest with myself. I will never drink again though, so it doesn't really matter a whole lot.

Sapling

I don't know what problem you had with AA TU....But that resentment you hold is too much.

Tippingpoint

That is a bit of an odd thing to say. It's 100% effective but only if you do it right. If it doesn't work for you it must be that you weren't doing it right?

Is that really what you wanted to say here?

Sapling

Do you two guys travel together...It's unreal.

IndaMiricale

TU you guys are just as funny . And no the program doesnt fail , only I would.

Dee74

I can see by the people in the thread this is gonna get busy.

Lets keep it civil, guys - keep away from the personal remarks and the programme bashing - or I'll close the thread.

D

IndaMiricale

Its okay all I do is encourage anyone to any program, you can bash mine and pick it apart as much as you desire.

Sapling

It looks like it was going pretty smooth to me Dee...When it related to the topic.

omegasupreme

Chapter 5

HOW IT WORKS (Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous 1st edition)

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.

The invitation: Am I thoroughly following the path of those that have rarely failed?



Those who do not recover are people who a) cannot or b) will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves.

Two groups of people in that sentence. The invitation: Am I a cannot or a will not? Am I incapable of giving myself to this simple program? Or a will not? Simply unwilling?

There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty.

It is important at this point to know who "they" are. In this part "they" refers to the unfortunates. So, the next logical question, who are the unfortunates? The unfortunates are those who do not recover. So, the unfortunates, the ones that do not recover, are incapable (cannot do it, or will not do it) of grasping and developing a manner of living demanding rigorous honesty.

There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

So, those that do recover are those with the capacity to be honest. Do I have the capacity to be honest?

eJoshua

Any program is 100% effective if you work it. That's like saying everyone who stays sober will be sober. I get what TU is saying.

I think the key thing is to build a recovery plan you can support 100%, even if your plan is cherry-picked from many different "programs".

Terminally Unique

I take it you didn't like my simple program, Sapling? Perhaps I should add a miranda warning to it for those who are constitutionally incapable of saying 'never', and label anyone who suggests that my simple program doesn't work 100% of the time as an 'angry person' or 'resentful' ...