Why don't ultimatums usually work?
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Why don't ultimatums usually work?
Reading through other forums (not SR), people make threads talking about how their spouse is an alcoholic and they are giving them an ultimatum to get help or get left. All the "experienced" people come on and respond with how if you make the ultimatum you'd better be prepared for the worst.
Why is this?
Why is this?
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IMHO (and experience), you'd better be prepared for the worst because the addict is not likely to comply with the ultimatum and you will be disappointed. Also, if you stick to your ultimatum, I think the addict can then get even WORSE due to the fact you are no longer enabling them and they are pissed.
At least that is what happened with me... I really thought saying "One more lie and I leave you" would work... It didn't. When he got caught and I started the process of moving out, he went on (and I think still may sorta be) the worst bender I have ever seen him on - did things I never imagined he was capable of. I also thought physically seeing me move out of our house would work... nope. Just more drinking, etc to numb the pain.
At least that is what happened with me... I really thought saying "One more lie and I leave you" would work... It didn't. When he got caught and I started the process of moving out, he went on (and I think still may sorta be) the worst bender I have ever seen him on - did things I never imagined he was capable of. I also thought physically seeing me move out of our house would work... nope. Just more drinking, etc to numb the pain.
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If the addict knows an ultimatum/boundary is empty, the person making it might as well save their breathe... totally pointless unless they are followed through upon. They just think "yeah right, you have said that xxxxx times."
Originally Posted by choublak 
The thing is though, my parents were like king and queen of empty ultimatums while I was growing up, so I don't quite get the concept anyway.
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Originally Posted by choublak
Why don't ultimatums usually work?
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
They actually can work, except that people giving the ultimatum don't often stick to their guns. Empty ultimatums inevitably backfire, and people who do this emerge from a much weaker position than before. If you aren't actually prepared for the worst case scenario, and prepared to follow through with it anyway, then the ultimatum is not for you. This is the mistake most people make, and why most ultimatums don't work.
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i think if you offer an ultimatium and they are not ready and you are not ready to follow through then its an empty threat. that said its a scary one to follow through on if you are not ready or prepared to follow through.
am sure i made several over the years and always went back for more, wanting the pretence of what i did not have, the dream and fear for the future.
it finally changed when i made the last one, am several months away now, was typical "drink or us" scenario.
response was i was unreasonable still, he needed to do it his way, does not want to stop and had to do it on his terms, true in alot of ways.
i waited for my knight in shining armour to come and fight for me and it didnt happen. then the lightbulb moment of omg he wont ever do it for me or us.
steep learning curve of i cant change it, didnt cause it and could not control it, when i had lived believing i could.(but did not realis ethat when i was there).
i knew in that moment i could not go back and things changed for me from there.i cannot change him, now his family have stepped in with things remaining the same.
he has to want it for himself, i hope someday he does but for him and noone else.
i am making a life for me and DD, hard very hard but better.
am sure i made several over the years and always went back for more, wanting the pretence of what i did not have, the dream and fear for the future.
it finally changed when i made the last one, am several months away now, was typical "drink or us" scenario.
response was i was unreasonable still, he needed to do it his way, does not want to stop and had to do it on his terms, true in alot of ways.
i waited for my knight in shining armour to come and fight for me and it didnt happen. then the lightbulb moment of omg he wont ever do it for me or us.
steep learning curve of i cant change it, didnt cause it and could not control it, when i had lived believing i could.(but did not realis ethat when i was there).
i knew in that moment i could not go back and things changed for me from there.i cannot change him, now his family have stepped in with things remaining the same.
he has to want it for himself, i hope someday he does but for him and noone else.
i am making a life for me and DD, hard very hard but better.
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Yeah this happened to me, I gave him an ultimatum to stop drinking or he would lose me. He said he would then all of a sudden HE LEAVES ME and goes off with another girl. BROKE MY HEART is an understatment, then of course iam the one crawling back and he dosent want anything to do with me. Sigh. I know now, it is his addiction talking not him.
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Because who am I to determine how another person should conduct themselves? If you tell them "my way or the highway," chances are, they will take the highway. Trying to change someone else never works, or at least never works out the way we imagined it would. Yeah, we think we know what's best for them. Nobody is that powerful. Here is one of my favorite posts by Anvilhead that I think pretty much sums it up:
Oh, and I don't think ultimatums are very effective with anyone, including alcoholics.
L
Originally Posted by anvilhead
potential is a big fat cop out, IMHO. cuz what are we really saying...
ok so he's really a piece of garbage right now, but DANG gimme a couple of weeks and i bet he cleans up real good and then he'll be somewhat suitable. who are WE to determine anyone's else POTENTIAL? what is THAT anyways? do we really have some special all knowing powers that we see another's future, their destiny?
every body on the planet has POTENTIAL....we are not static beings, if nothing else we will at the very least grow older. it's rather conceited for us to nominate ourselves as their MUSE, their inspiration. for again that is us taking owner ship of another person's growth. we let ourselves believe they will change BECAUSE of us....and then we get to feel like heroes, demi-gods recreating people in our own likeness.
what a horrible demeaning thing to say to someone, it's like handing them a note that reads:
i really can't stand you much as your are, except on those few rare nice days. but you usually manage to end up ruining those too. however, because i am such a saint, i am willing to WAIT for you completely change everything about you that i find distasteful, and by the way here's the list of positive qualities that i've determined you MUST have inside you somewhere, for i swear i saw them once. now if you would please get busy, i'm only willing to wait half my life on you and i don't want to get so old i don't have enough speed to track down another subject.
-Love, Dr. Frankenstein.
ok so he's really a piece of garbage right now, but DANG gimme a couple of weeks and i bet he cleans up real good and then he'll be somewhat suitable. who are WE to determine anyone's else POTENTIAL? what is THAT anyways? do we really have some special all knowing powers that we see another's future, their destiny?
every body on the planet has POTENTIAL....we are not static beings, if nothing else we will at the very least grow older. it's rather conceited for us to nominate ourselves as their MUSE, their inspiration. for again that is us taking owner ship of another person's growth. we let ourselves believe they will change BECAUSE of us....and then we get to feel like heroes, demi-gods recreating people in our own likeness.
what a horrible demeaning thing to say to someone, it's like handing them a note that reads:
i really can't stand you much as your are, except on those few rare nice days. but you usually manage to end up ruining those too. however, because i am such a saint, i am willing to WAIT for you completely change everything about you that i find distasteful, and by the way here's the list of positive qualities that i've determined you MUST have inside you somewhere, for i swear i saw them once. now if you would please get busy, i'm only willing to wait half my life on you and i don't want to get so old i don't have enough speed to track down another subject.
-Love, Dr. Frankenstein.
L
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I want to add one thing:
Ultimatums may work short-term and superficially.
I think it's a parallel to different ways to raise kids. (Bear with me.)
I used to take my kids to a church I perceived as kid-friendly. My kids aren't angels. They were quiet in church, but I let my daughter bring crayons and paper and draw during the service. She often did this on the floor.
The pastor's wife pointed me in the direction of another mom, whose three suit-and-tie-clad boys always sat still and straight and paid attention the entire service. She said "maybe Mrs. Myers could teach you a thing or two about parenting?"
The thing was -- Mrs. Myers's kids were HELLIONS the second they were out of their parents' sight. They didn't internalize the need to behave in a certain way out of respect for other people -- they just obeyed because otherwise, they got the stuffing beaten out of them when Mr. Myers got home. I want my kids to take responsibility for their behavior, not just display correct behavior when I'm watching.
I think that's how ultimatums work, too -- you never give the addict the opportunity to take responsibility for their own lives. If your A is desperate enough to not be alone, he'll obey. And then WTF does that do to your relationship? It turns him into a resentful prisoner, and you into his prison guard.
(And that's a global "You" btw -- I don't even know if you have an AH, Choublak)
Ultimatums may work short-term and superficially.
I think it's a parallel to different ways to raise kids. (Bear with me.)
I used to take my kids to a church I perceived as kid-friendly. My kids aren't angels. They were quiet in church, but I let my daughter bring crayons and paper and draw during the service. She often did this on the floor.
The pastor's wife pointed me in the direction of another mom, whose three suit-and-tie-clad boys always sat still and straight and paid attention the entire service. She said "maybe Mrs. Myers could teach you a thing or two about parenting?"
The thing was -- Mrs. Myers's kids were HELLIONS the second they were out of their parents' sight. They didn't internalize the need to behave in a certain way out of respect for other people -- they just obeyed because otherwise, they got the stuffing beaten out of them when Mr. Myers got home. I want my kids to take responsibility for their behavior, not just display correct behavior when I'm watching.
I think that's how ultimatums work, too -- you never give the addict the opportunity to take responsibility for their own lives. If your A is desperate enough to not be alone, he'll obey. And then WTF does that do to your relationship? It turns him into a resentful prisoner, and you into his prison guard.
(And that's a global "You" btw -- I don't even know if you have an AH, Choublak)
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Simple Logic
Ok, its just a theory but I think that if you break down an ultimatem logically into the 2 pieces seperated by the "or", it can be shown to a sober person who would see both sides and weigh the pros and cons of each situation presented and dtermine a course of action. Now, a non-sober person (which we all know has gobs of logical understanding lol) can only see the one negative of not getting their "fix" therefore because in their minds there is only one negative con it becomes attached as negative on the person initiating the ultimatem therefore leading to only one logical conclusion: that the "fix" is positive and the "ultimater" is negative. Choice made. PS I have no idea how I compiled that, no books, articles, or anything. It just sorta popped in there when I read the post. Maybe it helps I hope.
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Join Date: Mar 2012
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Simple Logic
Ok, its just a theory but I think that if you break down an ultimatem logically into the 2 pieces seperated by the "or", it can be shown to a sober person who would see both sides and weigh the pros and cons of each situation presented and dtermine a course of action. Now, a non-sober person (which we all know has gobs of logical understanding lol) can only see the one negative of not getting their "fix" therefore because in their minds there is only one negative con it becomes attached as negative on the person initiating the ultimatem therefore leading to only one logical conclusion: that the "fix" is positive and the "ultimater" is negative. Choice made. PS I have no idea how I compiled that, no books, articles, or anything. It just sorta popped in there when I read the post. Maybe it helps I hope.
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I guess my experience has been that those of us who give ultimatums never follow through....so the ultimatum is "toothless" if you will.
....or else I'm not going to see you anymore.
....or else you can't live with me anymore.
Because we are too afraid of the 'or else', it never happens and the person comes to realize it's all an empty threat.
Sorry to hear about your Dad, Choublak. I hope he finds peace for himself soon.
....or else I'm not going to see you anymore.
....or else you can't live with me anymore.
Because we are too afraid of the 'or else', it never happens and the person comes to realize it's all an empty threat.
Sorry to hear about your Dad, Choublak. I hope he finds peace for himself soon.
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To me it seems like an ultimatum is a perfect way to express a personal boundary. "Either you stop drinking and work a solid program or I leave," is the clearest way to indicate my choices about what I find acceptable.
The trick is that it's only authentic if I'm equally prepared for and accepting of either option. Otherwise it's just manipulation on my part. I've made a hundred of those, and they only made things worse.
Guess my point is that real ultimatums, designed to clarify boundaries and make real changes, do work. They honor both the speaker and the listener and allow both people to decide for themselves. But they're dead serious business because they obligate the speaker to truly respect the hearer and accept what she may really, really not want to hear.
The trick is that it's only authentic if I'm equally prepared for and accepting of either option. Otherwise it's just manipulation on my part. I've made a hundred of those, and they only made things worse.
Guess my point is that real ultimatums, designed to clarify boundaries and make real changes, do work. They honor both the speaker and the listener and allow both people to decide for themselves. But they're dead serious business because they obligate the speaker to truly respect the hearer and accept what she may really, really not want to hear.
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Originally Posted by choublak
Oh I'm not planning to make any ultimatums haha. I was just wondering why people say ultimatums don't work with alcoholics/addicts specifically, as if ultimatums DO work with everyone else.
so in an addictive relationship the empty promises of the alcholic or adict are just as empty as the ultimatums, that is why the whole relationship is a roller coaster of sick games and emotional control.
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I think they do work, just not like we want them to.
A choice is given - and they pick the wrong one.
My xah issued me an ultimatum. "You promise to stay married and I'll quit drinking." That didn't work out how he wanted it to either. I didn't pick marriage. So now I've thrown him and the 'family' away. The boys weren't worth it. :sigh: Ultimatums are about the people issuing them, not about the people receiving them.
I don't think ultimatums really work for anything and certainly not with an active addict who can't think straight - literally.
A choice is given - and they pick the wrong one.
My xah issued me an ultimatum. "You promise to stay married and I'll quit drinking." That didn't work out how he wanted it to either. I didn't pick marriage. So now I've thrown him and the 'family' away. The boys weren't worth it. :sigh: Ultimatums are about the people issuing them, not about the people receiving them.
I don't think ultimatums really work for anything and certainly not with an active addict who can't think straight - literally.
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Originally Posted by Marytherboo
To me it seems like an ultimatum is a perfect way to express a personal boundary. "Either you stop drinking and work a solid program or I leave," is the clearest way to indicate my choices about what I find acceptable.
Finally, I just decided to leave him. No threats, no ultimatums, just "I can't do this anymore." His response was "you aren't going to tell me what to do." That's when I said "do what you want, I can't live with you anymore." You should have seen the jaw drop, followed by nothing but stunned silence.
I have seen, over and over, year after year, on this board, ultimatums given with the same end result. Anger and resentment, and no real lasting sobriety. Bottom line is, you have to take care of yourself. Manipulating someone into doing things your way nearly always backfires, or merely prolongs the agony.
L
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