lillamy

Willybluedog -- you wrote in another post this:

and I wanted to give you my answer -- because it's something I've thought about a lot, and something that still does keep me up at night.

First, I stayed because I didn't realize my husband was an alcoholic.

Then I stayed because I didn't realize I had a choice. I had gotten married. I had taken a holy vow for better for worse. Besides, I was strong. I could handle this. And I didn't see how ill the kids were faring. Honestly. I didn't.

But I actually also stayed because I thought it was better for the children. Part of why I stayed was because I felt like I didn't have the right to take their father away from them. It's complicated, for most kids -- even now, they love their father and they don't understand why he doesn't love them back. (He does, of course, but in the way of most addicts, loves his addiction and himself more.)

Did I like the way he treated them? No.
But I didn't ascribe that to his alcoholism as much as to the fact that he was raising his children the way he was raised -- with military discipline, unbelievable expectations, and yelling. I had convinced him early on that physical punishment of any of my children would result in me walking out the door with said children and never looking back. And he actually never did lay a hand on them.

Mostly, though, I think I didn't realize, understand, fully appreciate quite how damaging and devastating the emotional and verbal abuse they suffered was to them.

Why?

Because I was getting the same treatment. The same verbal, emotional abuse. And I thought it was my fault. That he was like that. Just like the kids thought that if they were just a little nicer, fought just a little less, could get their grades up just a little more, could do a little better in Little League -- then he wouldn't have to yell at them or have to drink. The same way, I thought that if I could just be a little skinnier, a little prettier, make better food, spend less money on food, have more sex with him no matter how repulsive it was to me...

We all thought it was our fault. If we were just better people, he wouldn't have to drink. He wouldn't have to yell at us.

He never physically harmed us (unless you count forcing sex on your wife with the threat of otherwise taking your anger out on the children physical harm), but it was the same scenario of abuse, where the abuse victim blames her- or himself.

I've said before that I don't think I will ever be able to forgive myself for not saving the children out of that situation sooner. But I have grown to understand why I wasn't able to. And while I still have more guilt over that than anything else I've ever done in my life, and always will -- I can also on a rational level tell myself that I left when I was able to. I wasn't able to earlier.

I wish I had been.

lillamy

(And just to clarify -- I didn't take offense at your question at all. I know it's one my oldest has already asked me, and one I need to be prepared to answer for them.)

NYCDoglvr

Here's what's important: you took the big and tough steps to get out. Too many times we don't pat ourselves on the back for making hard decision and getting our lives back. And you understand yourself.

Please let yourself off the hook for staying as long as you did. Try looking forward instead of backward. We all have regrets but bless them and let them go. Plan a joyful life for yourself ... you certainly earned it.

Thanks so much for posting this.

StarCat

I stayed because I didn't realize leaving was an option.
I believed that the changes in his behavior were all my fault, and that there was something I could do to make things the way they were back in the early phases of the relationship. I thought that it was all my fault.
I remained because I was afraid what would happen if I left. I was worried that without someone else there then he would lose his job and drink himself to death.
I stayed because I felt guilty leaving. He would make all these plans for the next year, and pay for everything in advance, and half of it was non-refundable. He'd spend all his money and mine on these trips, and I truly believed that I wouldn't be able to survive on my own without him because I had no money.

I truly believed that I had to stay, and it wasn't until this forum and Al-Anon when I began to realize that I had choices I had never allowed myself to see before.
I'm still paying off the debt that I collected while with him. By the end of the year, though, the only loan I intend to have left is the one on the car I got for myself after I left him.

I have finally learned an important lesson in my life. I have choices in addition to the ones that people give to me. I can make the choices I want, even if they're not on the multiple-choice list I'm presented with by others in my life.
And that's an important lesson, and one I am grateful to have learned.

Tuffgirl

I stayed because every time we tried to file those darn papers - we got rejected!

Ok, seriously...well...that was a reason but there were many others.

Ultimately, I stay in this marriage because I do get something out of it that works for me right now. And because I respect the heck out of my husband, even when he was being a total asshat. I still respected him.

This reminds me of Cyranoak's old post that blew my mind:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...still-her.html

lillamy

Thank you -- I'm working on that. And like someone else posted a while ago -- it keeps me humble when I now have to deal with the fallout in the kids' behavior and emotional upheaval and needs. It keeps me focused on building a good life for them and preparing them for that life in the best way I can -- because no matter how much I can blame AXH's alcoholism, I'm not without responsibility for the way their life turned out either. And that thought is actually not just negative -- it motivates me to be patient and prioritize them.

m1k3

I staid because I was in denial about how bad things were, I didn't realize I had any choices, I had taken a vow for better or worse and I am, in today's parlance, a veteran Marine. And you know Marines, no retreat, no surrender. Quitting was just not in my vocabulary.

I staid until I hit my bottom and bounced. Once that happened I had an awakening, I realized that I had to change or I was going to die. It was finally time to change and get out of hell.

I read someplace that hitting bottom is often a prerequisite for having a spiritual awakening. This isn't just an AA or Al-Anon thing but pretty much with any spiritual practice or program. Most people seem to need to be in a place where their idea of the world shatters before they can see reality as it is.

Your friend,

nodaybut2day

Or perhaps, look at it from a different perspective: what happened on your journey happened exactly as it should have for you to come to the realizations you came to. You said yourself that you were not ready, hence there was a purpose to the length of time you stayed.

I have come to whole-heartedly believe in HP's presence and guidance in my life, and through that awakening, I've come to understand that everything that happened to me--rape at an early age, marriage to alcoholic abuser, becoming a stripper, finally finding the strength to leave, happened for a reason. I would not be who I am today--and I LOVE that person, had I not been through what I have.

If you feel any guilt over "not leaving soon enough", release yourself from it. HP has you. You're in good hands

m1k3

lillamy, remember you, like the rest of us, did the best with the information you had at the time. Looking back of course there were a lot of things I could have done different but the me at that time did not have the information, skills, experience and wisdom that the me of now has.

And, as was posted by nodaybut2day, everything that happened had to happen exactly as it did for you to be where you are today.

Your friend,

lillamy

Thank you - I appreciate the reframing and ways to think about this. I mainly wanted to give one explanation why people can choose to stay in a situation that is harmful to their children. Because I know that's pretty damn inconceivable looking at it from the outside. You know, just like people who have never experienced being in an abusive relationship often say, "but why don't those women just leave?"

I love that this place gives so many different perspectives. Willybluedog shows me what an ACOA sees when he looks at parents who keep their children in destructive families - and that continues to be immensely valuable to me. Just so I'm clear that I'm not feeling defensive, nor am Iconstantly beating myself up about the past. I just want to understand, and maybe help others understand the pathological dynamic that can prevent you from seeing the bleeding obvious in a dysfunctional relationship.

Thumper

I stayed because I did not give myself permission to leave. I stayed because I thought that staying was what was best for my children.

I left because of what was happening to me. I felt that I must leave or come completely unraveled. I left feeling 95% certain I was throwing my kids under the bus to save myself. The other 5% could see the not so distant (anymore) future when the drinking took a sharp turn for the worse.

The posts that call into question my parental devotion/priorities/love/commitment are usually ones I pass over. They do trigger me and I get nothing out of them. Posts about figuring out alcoholism, family dynamics, hearing experiences of those that grew up inside alcoholic homes etc. and how that is framed around children are very helpful, even when they hurt. I have made mistakes, but I hope to learn from them. It hurts to hear the posts that hit close to home but when it comes from a place of sharing, and not accusation, I am able to take that share and use it in my own recovery and quest to being a better parent and person.

Deleted a novel of to much information. I'll just say that alcoholism does not equal abuse. My mother drank pretty much every day and I experienced zero abuse. No physical abuse, no verbal abuse, no emotional abuse, no sexual abuse, no neglect. I was loved and important and I knew it. There was never a question of that. I think a lot of my trouble with boundaries came from my childhood but I have A TON of good memories and happy feelings from when I was a child. I can not for one second imagine not having my mother in my life as a child. It would have been the single worst thing ever had anyone tried to take her away from me or me away from her. Each situation is different.

ETA: One last edit! i did not leave my husband because of how he treated the kids. I could not make a home with him in it and i could not be a mother in that relationship. I could see where he was headed and I was not going to sign my kids up for that either but the years that he was with the kids, he added a lot to their life. I was a crabby joyless rigid person however so that wasn't good.

CodeNameGiggles

Thumper, thank you for the non-deleted version I was able to read before you modified it. It was something that, for me, was helpful.

I have mostly lurked around this forum for at least a year, if not more, before creating an account. I haven't posted on my issues, but I've found a wealth of information and support from reading the information in the stickies and this forum. I'm always unsure how to frame the questions I have, then I second guess myself and stop myself from posting.

I was actively working on leaving my AH, pregnant and with a child that was under a year old, and then things changed suddenly and drastically. AH attempted suicide, wound up in detox and rehab, and has now been sober 7 months. I had to decide if I was going to walk away and wonder if a court here would allow him unsupervised access to my children as an active addict, or if I was willing to give him a chance at sobriety and putting his life together.

I'll be honest, it makes me wonder at times if I'm damaging my children by even staying with him while he's sober and actively pursuing recovery, particularly when I see hints of the addict talk while he's sober.

So to answer the question, why do we stay? At first I stayed because I was in denial of his addiction. He kept some of it well hidden by alternating alcohol and Valium. Them I stayed because I wanted a plan and documentation of his addiction before I left to protect my children from him. Now, I'm staying with him because he's not the addict he was a year ago - and I'm not afraid to leave if he returns to that.

Thumper

Well I'm glad you got to read it then. You can tell I'm wound up and/or scattered when I edit the same post three times..jeesh. Rapidly too I think there is only a small window to even edit in, lol.

feelingalone43

For now I stay because, believe it or not, my kids actually want me to. Yes, they told me that. And learning what I have learned about myself recently, added to my new-found strength and boundaries, I know that leaving now would not be beneficial.

My situation may change, and if it does, I will re-evaluate it then. No matter what my AH decides to do about his addiction, I can and will be a strong, loving, supportive parent.

Don't do something permanently stupid because you are temporarily upset.

lillamy

While that may be true, I have yet to see a situation where alcoholism allowed to run its course doesn't equal serious dysfunction...

LaTeeDa

Not hard to believe at all. My kids wanted me to stay as well. It's all they had ever known. In fact, I would have been very shocked and surprised if they had the wisdom and maturity at the time to see that leaving was actually the better, healthier option for us. (They were 13 and 9 at the time.) I believe they do understand that now, but they were actually quite angry at me for a while. I had a wonderful therapist who helped me work through much of the guilt and accept that it is the job of the adults to make the decisions about the marriage, not the children.

Maybe I'm taking this wrong, and if I am I apologize, but leaving my AH was the absolute best thing I ever could have done for myself AND my children. I don't regret it even the tiniest bit, and I don't consider it to be "permanently stupid." Plus, I didn't leave because I was "temporarily upset." I left because I simply could not continue to live that life of destruction one more day. I find that statement offensive.

L

Thumper

That is probably true. I should clarify that I do think things would have gone seriously south had I stayed with my xah.

I will also add that my mother died of other causes before any alcoholism could run it's course.

I don't want it to sound like I'm advocating staying because I left and I do think it was the right decision. It was the best thing, in the long run, for all of us.

whatamess

I stayed because

I am now in the process of divorcing. I don't know how horrible it will get, but I think in the end everything will turn out ok.

lillamy

whatamess, that list pretty much applies to me, too.
Good luck with your divorce -- I know it doesn't apply to everybody, but I can tell you that for me and my kids, the grass actually is greener on this here side.

lillamy

Oh, and one more thing. Respect. A couple of you have said that despite the alcoholism, you still respected your spouse.

I once heard a marriage counselor (in a church) who claimed to be able to predict the outcome of a marriage by talking to both parties separately for ten minutes each. The touchstone, he said, for whether a relationship would hold up in the long run or not was respect. He said if one party considered the other morally inferior, the relationship was doomed, in his eyes.

And I think that was one explanation why I left, eventually. I no longer had any respect for my spouse and I considered him morally inferior. Not because of his alcoholism -- I had sort of accepted that as a disease -- but because of his behavior, even if it was explained by his alcoholism.