forgiveness
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forgiveness
adipsia said:
i find this dangerous reasoning, as subtly, it makes forgiveness a selfish act, which it is not.
i will agree that one of the side-effects of true forgiveness is that it liberates the one bestowing it.
forgiveness flows from an open, loving heart towards the one who has caused us pain. true forgiveness comes from a position of understanding, and from that understanding, compassion for the state of our brother who has harmed us.
if forgiveness flows from a point of consideration of one's self, the same beautiful energy flow, release and Grace can not occur. it would be more an act of self-preservation, than a virtue.
"to give is to receive"
Put another way, forgiveness is less about what you're doing for the other party, it's actually what you're doing for yourself.
i will agree that one of the side-effects of true forgiveness is that it liberates the one bestowing it.
forgiveness flows from an open, loving heart towards the one who has caused us pain. true forgiveness comes from a position of understanding, and from that understanding, compassion for the state of our brother who has harmed us.
if forgiveness flows from a point of consideration of one's self, the same beautiful energy flow, release and Grace can not occur. it would be more an act of self-preservation, than a virtue.
"to give is to receive"
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I will say that forgiving someone helps me more than the person I am forgiving, simply because true forgiveness means that I'm not holding onto any grudges anymore, and grudges can become very heavy to hold.
I believe forgiving is also part of the whole "detaching with love," letting go of expectations for someone's behavior, and recognizing that nobody is perfect.
When I forgive someone, I do not have to forget what happened. Forgiving someone then leaves me available to decide whether to continue the relationship with that person or let things go and move on, depending upon my feelings on the exact situation. Just because I forgave someone doesn't mean I then have to pretend it didn't happen.
I forgave XABF, but that doesn't mean I was ever willing to get involved in a relationship again. I understood the power of alcoholism, and I couldn't hate him for that... Especially since the alcoholism didn't really leave enough of the true person to hate, anyway. That said, there was too much lost in that relationship, my feelings weren't there anymore, and on top of that even if he worked the alcoholism issue I would be unable to trust that the separate abuse problem would ever be resolved.
I forgave him, I held no grudges, I wished him the best in the future... I just also wished him a future without me in it.
I think forgiving solely for one's own self, though, isn't true forgiveness anyway. I wouldn't really get the same benefits, because I wouldn't have the empathy for the person, so I therefore never really let go of the things I think I'm forgiving, I'm just stuffing them into a closet somewhere until they can jump out and bite me later when I least expect it.
Forgiving means letting go of the hurt and anger and pain. You can't have one without the other, and so in my opinion if I've done both it's true forgiveness, and if I haven't then I haven't gotten to the "forgiving" part yet.
I don't have to forget the hurt and anger and pain, I just can't carry it around with me, I need to figure out what I learned from the experience and then move on with that new knowledge the next time I'm presented with a similar situation.
I believe forgiving is also part of the whole "detaching with love," letting go of expectations for someone's behavior, and recognizing that nobody is perfect.
When I forgive someone, I do not have to forget what happened. Forgiving someone then leaves me available to decide whether to continue the relationship with that person or let things go and move on, depending upon my feelings on the exact situation. Just because I forgave someone doesn't mean I then have to pretend it didn't happen.
I forgave XABF, but that doesn't mean I was ever willing to get involved in a relationship again. I understood the power of alcoholism, and I couldn't hate him for that... Especially since the alcoholism didn't really leave enough of the true person to hate, anyway. That said, there was too much lost in that relationship, my feelings weren't there anymore, and on top of that even if he worked the alcoholism issue I would be unable to trust that the separate abuse problem would ever be resolved.
I forgave him, I held no grudges, I wished him the best in the future... I just also wished him a future without me in it.
I think forgiving solely for one's own self, though, isn't true forgiveness anyway. I wouldn't really get the same benefits, because I wouldn't have the empathy for the person, so I therefore never really let go of the things I think I'm forgiving, I'm just stuffing them into a closet somewhere until they can jump out and bite me later when I least expect it.
Forgiving means letting go of the hurt and anger and pain. You can't have one without the other, and so in my opinion if I've done both it's true forgiveness, and if I haven't then I haven't gotten to the "forgiving" part yet.
I don't have to forget the hurt and anger and pain, I just can't carry it around with me, I need to figure out what I learned from the experience and then move on with that new knowledge the next time I'm presented with a similar situation.
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Forgiveness is a choice. An individual can either choose to have all the negative, angry feeling consume them, or they can choose to forgive and move forward in their life.
Forgiveness is for yourself, it is not for the other person. I find nothing selfish in this rationale.
We have all read a story in the paper about a person forgiving a killer for murdering her child/spouse/parent/ sibling. I am always filled with such a complete sense of astonishment after reading an article like this. To be blessed with such grace and possess such a charitable heart in the worst of times is a gift in itself.
For me, forgiveness is simply acceptance. I am old enough now to know there are certain things i will never understand. And that's really ok too.
Forgiveness is for yourself, it is not for the other person. I find nothing selfish in this rationale.
We have all read a story in the paper about a person forgiving a killer for murdering her child/spouse/parent/ sibling. I am always filled with such a complete sense of astonishment after reading an article like this. To be blessed with such grace and possess such a charitable heart in the worst of times is a gift in itself.
For me, forgiveness is simply acceptance. I am old enough now to know there are certain things i will never understand. And that's really ok too.
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Originally Posted by marie1960 
Forgiveness is for yourself, it is not for the other person. I find nothing selfish in this rationale.
L
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Put another way, forgiveness is less about what you're doing for the other party, it's actually what you're doing for yourself.
You have your own definition of what forgiveness should be and that's fine. I'm pointing out what it is from a 12-step program (Al-anon)
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what i am getting at is the difference in the energy flow...
in one case, the energy is flowing to the other person, the one who has hurt us,
as a result of this choice by the forgiver, the energy flows back to the forgiver ten-fold.
in the case of forgiving so that i don't have to carry around this negative baggage anymore, i feel that differently. to me, it feels more like a letting go or acceptance of a situation.
just exploring. hard to verbalize.
in one case, the energy is flowing to the other person, the one who has hurt us,
as a result of this choice by the forgiver, the energy flows back to the forgiver ten-fold.
in the case of forgiving so that i don't have to carry around this negative baggage anymore, i feel that differently. to me, it feels more like a letting go or acceptance of a situation.
just exploring. hard to verbalize.
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Originally Posted by naive
i have discovered that i am capable of letting go without forgiving.
but in order to do that, i have to numb a part of my heart.
but in order to do that, i have to numb a part of my heart.
Forgiveness, in my opinion, is a whole bunch of acceptance and empathy and letting things go and learning something and staying true to yourself, all in one big package.
If there isn't all of those things together, then it's just stuffing or numbing or avoiding or justifying or resenting or judging or preaching or denying - not forgiveness at all.
The largest part of why I believe forgiveness is for me more than the person I am forgiving, though, is that I have learned it's okay and healthy to move forward in my life even if someone else does not forgive me for something.
If I forgive myself for that something (if I was in the wrong) or forgive the other person for their misconceptions and behaviors (if I believe I made the right decision regarding that something), that's all I need. Granted, it's easier if the other person forgives me, but it's not necessary for my serenity.
So if I can move forward into a healthy existence regardless of whether or not another forgives me for something, but merely rely upon me forgiving myself, then forgiveness is more an internal than an external entity, and therefore it is more for my sake than the sake of the other party.
That said, it can't be forced. It's a part of my recovery and healing process, and I won't find forgiveness until I'm ready to give it.
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For me at least, forgiveness is a step beyond letting go. To me, letting go means whatever it is, it's not "in my orbit" anymore. Not having a direct impact on my life and my well-being. Forgiveness, on the other hand, is a kind of understanding. It's knowing that however another human being chooses to conduct themselves, it's not personal. It's empathy, not on a personal level, but a human level. As in, we are all imperfect humans. It's humbling and freeing for me to forgive on that level because it's really not about the other, it's about everyone, me included. And, IMHO, it makes the world a better place. I don't see it as selfish, nor do I see it as being motivated out of a concern for another. I see it as growth.
L
L
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I don't correlate being concerned about or forgiving as it is in my own self interest, nor with any type of disregard or concern for the other person.
I can control myself- not the other. My forgiving is for my benefit because I cannot control how somebody else will feel or if they respond at all.
Having negative feelings about another person is futile. By spending my own 'energy' thoughts and emotions on what is out of my control I choose to let it fester and grow- sometimes way out of proportion.
In my own experience- I forgive because my HP commands that I do so. I don't always feel like it and truth be told do a lot of 'reforgiving.' When I feel that I have truly forgiven- it's the most wonderful gift I give to myself. (and to my HP)
I can control myself- not the other. My forgiving is for my benefit because I cannot control how somebody else will feel or if they respond at all.
Having negative feelings about another person is futile. By spending my own 'energy' thoughts and emotions on what is out of my control I choose to let it fester and grow- sometimes way out of proportion.
In my own experience- I forgive because my HP commands that I do so. I don't always feel like it and truth be told do a lot of 'reforgiving.' When I feel that I have truly forgiven- it's the most wonderful gift I give to myself. (and to my HP)
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I think this topic was discussed here around the time I first joined, or maybe it's one of the other boards I frequent... In any case, it's a great discussion and one I've been thinking about off an on for quite a long time.
Going back through some of my older posts, I can see where I've made steps forward. This isn't one of them. Intellectually, I get that forgiveness is more for me than for the person I'm forgiving. Then there's another part, and it's still a larger part, of me that rolls my eyes, brings thumb and fingers together repeatedly :chatter Not at any of the comments posted here, just at the idea of *having* to forgive XAH in order to move on.
Also, I don't think I want to forget, that, for me, would entail a re-numbing. I do want to let it go, in that it I don't want it to be a greater part of who I think I am now (i.e. Theuncertainty who was r by her abusive, alcoholic x-husband), but I don't think I can forgive him for what he did. Oh, and I *know* that's not who I am, it's just what happened, but still, it's there, still, nearly 4 years after leaving...
Are there things that are just too big to forgive? Is it absolutely necessary to forgive in order to be able to move on... not really expecting answers, kind of musing aloud.
Going back through some of my older posts, I can see where I've made steps forward. This isn't one of them. Intellectually, I get that forgiveness is more for me than for the person I'm forgiving. Then there's another part, and it's still a larger part, of me that rolls my eyes, brings thumb and fingers together repeatedly :chatter Not at any of the comments posted here, just at the idea of *having* to forgive XAH in order to move on.
Also, I don't think I want to forget, that, for me, would entail a re-numbing. I do want to let it go, in that it I don't want it to be a greater part of who I think I am now (i.e. Theuncertainty who was r by her abusive, alcoholic x-husband), but I don't think I can forgive him for what he did. Oh, and I *know* that's not who I am, it's just what happened, but still, it's there, still, nearly 4 years after leaving...
Are there things that are just too big to forgive? Is it absolutely necessary to forgive in order to be able to move on... not really expecting answers, kind of musing aloud.
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Originally Posted by naive
probably best to define what i mean by self-ish in this context.
i mean motivated by concern for self versus an act done without thought of self, motivated by concern for another.
i mean motivated by concern for self versus an act done without thought of self, motivated by concern for another.
Mother Theresa honored her HP with her actions her entire life. She choose that, ergo, it came from self. Her actions appeared selfless but she chose them.
Every choice I make literally comes from within my brain. Everything I choose and do is, at that moment, the sum total of my entire existence.
I always eventually choose forgiveness for self and others, because it is right for me. The other way wasn't working for me.
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Originally Posted by anvilhead
as i understand it, forgiveness is NOT absolution
"Afterward, the 700 people left in the boats had nothing to do but wait... wait to die, wait to live, wait for an absolution, which would never come."
That's when I decided absolution is not mine to give. It belongs to something bigger than me.
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Naive,
Forgiveness to one may mean something different to another. Bearing in mind the social inclusiveness, different opinions, and personalities one encounters here are essential to the path of recovery and hope of all who suffer. The saying,” principles before personalities” has been around for some time and I myself have to apply it daily. When we have a burning desire to share I keep in mind we are not perfect but free to share our feelings, experiences, and opinions in the hope of finding Peace and serenity in our recovery.
Originally Posted by naive
adipsia said:
i find this dangerous reasoning, as subtly, it makes forgiveness a selfish act, which it is not.
i will agree that one of the side-effects of true forgiveness is that it liberates the one bestowing it.
forgiveness flows from an open, loving heart towards the one who has caused us pain. true forgiveness comes from a position of understanding, and from that understanding, compassion for the state of our brother who has harmed us.
if forgiveness flows from a point of consideration of one's self, the same beautiful energy flow, release and Grace can not occur. it would be more an act of self-preservation, than a virtue.
"to give is to receive"
i find this dangerous reasoning, as subtly, it makes forgiveness a selfish act, which it is not.
i will agree that one of the side-effects of true forgiveness is that it liberates the one bestowing it.
forgiveness flows from an open, loving heart towards the one who has caused us pain. true forgiveness comes from a position of understanding, and from that understanding, compassion for the state of our brother who has harmed us.
if forgiveness flows from a point of consideration of one's self, the same beautiful energy flow, release and Grace can not occur. it would be more an act of self-preservation, than a virtue.
"to give is to receive"
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Interesting thread!
I might ramble in this post. **RAMBLE ALERT**
I haven´t processed all the posts yet but I agree with the notions about forgiveness being easier to achieve when thinking more in terms of humankind/unity than "you did this to me" or "I did this to you" (centered in ego/separation)
I was bullied at work just today. Very subtle.
If I take it from ego, I automatically go to victim mode, anger...
If I take it from a unity perspective, I realize this person and I are the same. If he "attacks me" he is attacking himself. The one who is hurt is him. I happened to mirror something in him, triggering his own wounds. There is no "ME", no punching bag, to absorb the shock.
Today it dawned on me the concept of mirrors and how I have replayed abuse constantly. I took abuse in "love life" (anything but love there..) and when I ended those "relationships", I have experienced abuse from landlords, from neighbors, now at work, even abuse from my own ex-psychotherapist! someone who I thought was an ally. Ah! abandonment/betrayal, here we go again, never disappeared just because I cut ties with a specific person.
I realize how powerful this force is within me. No, not force, more like: wound. I am SURE when I heal this part of myself (hopefully at some point in this life) I will stop running into these kind of people. They are all just my own voices. It is the same soul living in different bodies, either creating more wounds, or healing them.
Forgiveness comes easier when I see things this way, when its related to ignorance/undone inner work, and not evil.
I might ramble in this post. **RAMBLE ALERT**
I haven´t processed all the posts yet but I agree with the notions about forgiveness being easier to achieve when thinking more in terms of humankind/unity than "you did this to me" or "I did this to you" (centered in ego/separation)
I was bullied at work just today. Very subtle.
If I take it from ego, I automatically go to victim mode, anger...
If I take it from a unity perspective, I realize this person and I are the same. If he "attacks me" he is attacking himself. The one who is hurt is him. I happened to mirror something in him, triggering his own wounds. There is no "ME", no punching bag, to absorb the shock.
Today it dawned on me the concept of mirrors and how I have replayed abuse constantly. I took abuse in "love life" (anything but love there..) and when I ended those "relationships", I have experienced abuse from landlords, from neighbors, now at work, even abuse from my own ex-psychotherapist! someone who I thought was an ally. Ah! abandonment/betrayal, here we go again, never disappeared just because I cut ties with a specific person.
I realize how powerful this force is within me. No, not force, more like: wound. I am SURE when I heal this part of myself (hopefully at some point in this life) I will stop running into these kind of people. They are all just my own voices. It is the same soul living in different bodies, either creating more wounds, or healing them.
Forgiveness comes easier when I see things this way, when its related to ignorance/undone inner work, and not evil.
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I am in that place rite now with a friend...she had some something sneekie behind my back...for whatever her reasons..maybe afraid i may judge her...(dunno, and dont care the reason), (for me>>which also brings it to not having any expectations)
i am at this point of detaching with love...I hate choas... just hate it with a passion
so what am i doing...letting go and letting god...i said a prayer for her today...
so for me today...i accept the way she is..no questions asked...and for that i forgive the choas and trying to get me involved but like always, i am up front and honest and set boundaries...
forgiving comes in time...rite now...
i am at this point of detaching with love...I hate choas... just hate it with a passion
so what am i doing...letting go and letting god...i said a prayer for her today...
so for me today...i accept the way she is..no questions asked...and for that i forgive the choas and trying to get me involved but like always, i am up front and honest and set boundaries...
forgiving comes in time...rite now...
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I read a great book in teh last 18mths called How Can I Forgive You? The Courage to Forgive, The Freedom Not To by Janis Abrahms Spring. Her speciality focus is in affair recovery but this book is just about forgiving in general.
It really, really helped me to see what is healthy forgiveness and for me what is me trying to people please. What is
It also helped me to realize that forgiveness does not happen overnight but will happen in stages (at least for me). Some of the process for me has been figuring out what I am doing for me and what I was doing for someone else...where my energy was going or coming.
Finally it was validating to learn that having emotions as I was working through to forgiveness was part of the process, and it was okay to have them.
Great thread, thanks so much.
It really, really helped me to see what is healthy forgiveness and for me what is me trying to people please. What is
It also helped me to realize that forgiveness does not happen overnight but will happen in stages (at least for me). Some of the process for me has been figuring out what I am doing for me and what I was doing for someone else...where my energy was going or coming.
Finally it was validating to learn that having emotions as I was working through to forgiveness was part of the process, and it was okay to have them.
Great thread, thanks so much.
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