Senseofagoose

Hello everyone,

Like so many before me, I have read posts on SR for many months before making this, my first post. I have gained huge insight and comfort from the stories - knowing it's not just me etc - and SR played a very big part in me deciding to start going to Al-Anon nearly a year ago. I have gained enormously from that too.

My potted history is like so many others. I'm in my early 40's, married to an alcoholic. We have been together for 12 years and to the outside world it must look as though we have a great life. We have two young sons (6 and 3). Looking back I now realise that AH was an A before I knew him; I think it's fair to say that I was in denial about this myself for a long time. He is in denial, big time. Before SR and Al-Anon I went through all the futile hoops of thinking I could make him better, trying to persuade him to stop; begging, pleading, letters etc etc, to no avail of course. But now I know and understand the 3 C's.

In the last year or so things have deteriorated. He is drinking more and his moods are worse and more frequent. He is verbally and emotionally abusive to me. He has not been physically violent to me but there have been times when I have felt scared and intimidated and the default position is that I am constantly walking on eggshells. He throws things, shouts, behaves erratically and slams doors. I am exhausted by it. Most importantly, I see that it is starting to affect the boys. I had my own "bottoming out" as an enabler over Christmas, when his behaviour was worse than ever and I realised that I needed to make changes. I simply will not let them grow up in this environment.

So I have been planning since then to tell him he needs to leave. I have had amazing support from family, friends and professionals around safety planning and how best to do this in the way most likely to get the outcome I need for me and the boys. He pretty much suspects that things are over between us and indeed last night after his shouting and door slamming had died down, he was talking about divorce and said words to the effect that I could have the boys and the house and he would leave (the house is in my name and he is financially independent which helps). I resisted the temptation to say "off you go, then" as he was drunk and I need to do this in a controlled, safe way.

So, next Thursday is the day. I have a plan and back ups (bag packed, legal advice re the court orders I can get etc) if things don't go according to plan. I am nervous, but it can't come soon enough.

The one big question that I am struggling with, is what to say to my two wonderful boys once the separation has happened. They don't know about this thing called alcoholism, although my six year old told his Grandpa on Christmas Day, "Daddy always drinks wine" (one of the things that forced me to conclude "enough") but they see his moods and tempers ("is Daddy grumpy, Mummy?"), hear his shouting and witness and hear the door slamming. Last night was bad - for the first time my three year old said "Daddy's slamming doors" and later that evening I saw a look of genuine fear in my six year old's eyes when AH came into his bedroom. He is struggling to get to sleep at night and comes downstairs at the slightest noise - I think he is very anxious although he doesn't express it directly.

I don't know what will happen yet about them spending time with him after the separation - that will have to depend on how he is behaving I guess - I certainly won't let them see him unless he is sober and I feel it is safe - easier said than done I suspect.


I know that SR isn't about giving advice directly, but I'd really welcome hearing about what other parents have said to young children in the aftermath - once the separation has happened. I know they are bound to ask why it has happened and why Daddy isn't here, when he's coming back etc. I'm not sure about going down the "Daddy has an illness" road because that might confuse/upset them.

Any thoughts would be welcome.

I have times of despair, fear, anger, I have cried more tears than I ever thought possible and I am so, so sad. But for what it's worth and for anyone else reading who can relate to what I'm going through, in the last few weeks I have found from somewhere strength because I know with every bone in my body that I'm doing the right thing for me and my beautiful sons. This is the most difficult thing I have ever done, but the churning knots in my stomach, that happen to me if something isn't right, simply aren't there.

Thanks for reading.

PS I won't be able to get back onto these pages until Monday as I can only safely come here when I'm at work, in case anyone wonders why I don't do any follow up posts in the next few days.

Tuffgirl

Welcome to SR! I have teenagers, so it was easy to talk to them about our situation as I was preparing to leave. There are many others here with young children who can weigh in with examples of how they handled situations like this.

What I can say is that even at 6, your older son recognizes the connection. Your 3 yr old, however, is barely old enough to separate himself from you as an individual. But I know both boys will react positively if you do, as they look at you as a guide for their feelings and thoughts, so stay as positive in their presence as you possibly can.

Keep posting and keep coming back - there is a wealth of wisdom here!
~T

lillamy

My kids were older, and they also witnessed their father threatening to kill us all, so for me, it wasn't so much an issue of breaking bad news to them -- it was more an issue of explaining why the father they adored (and feared) could behave like he did.

I would keep it simple. Tell them their father has a disease called alcoholism that makes him want to drink even when it makes him sicker. That the disease changes the way he behaves, and that he can get better if he gets help. And that until he gets help, you want to keep them from having to be exposed to his behavior.

I would tell them that their father loves them, but that his disease makes it difficult for him to show that in a proper way. And I would reassure them over and over again that it is NOT THEIR FAULT that their father is drinking. I've said that a million times to my kids, and they still think that if they just could find the right thing to say or do, he'd quit.

MyBetterWorld

I could have written your post. My daughters were 6 and 2 when I left. I still don't know what to say to them, and I struggle with it. On one hand, they should know. It's not fair for them not to. On the other hand, they will be hurt...devastated by it. But I agree with either Mike or Cryanoak (can't remember who said it) or WillyBlue-I need to tell them. I am in violation of their trust by keeping it a secret from them.

It's hard though, I haven't thought of a way to do it yet. I hope I gain some insight from some of the answers that you get!

blwninthewind

I don't think it will come as a shock to your 6 yr old. Kids know far more than we tell them directly but a call to notify the school is definitely in order so the teacher can watch for behavior changes and also to keep your STBX from picking him up!

I don't have any advice except to say a therapist may be able to help them with the new changes. You aren't out yet...and even though he says he will go ....we all know you can never count on what an A says....
so ...I think maybe having a therapist that deals w/ young kids and alcoholism (specifically! because a crackhead is way different than an A!)...may be a good idea.

Please be safe. We are praying for you.... and stay strong.
Let us know your ok when you can!

PixieGirl

I also hope I can gain some insight from other posters on here!

My little guy is 2 and a half, and I don't know what to say to him other then 'Now Nana's home is our home too'. And I tell him when Daddy is going to come see him and I act all happy about it. Honestly, when I first left, I told the little guy that we were going to get muffins and go to Nana's. lol.

I don't think he even understands the word 'sick' so I can't really explain that part to him. I want to be able to explain why we don't all live in the same house together - but I'm not really sure how. I just try to reassure him that I love him and Daddy loves him. He picks up on moods so easily so I try to stay positive around him even if I feel like a wreck.

m1k3

Speaking from experience no little kid should have to look at a parent with fear in their eyes.

Your friend,

lillamy

I also wanted to share what my counselor said to me... which I translate as "What you do is more important than what you say":

Human beings -- including very young children -- will prefer healthy environments to pathological ones. Sounds simple and obvious. But after I left, I became obsessed with controlling what went on when the kids were at AXH's house. I have reason to worry, obviously, but that doesn't change the fact that I can't do a darn thing about the courts giving him shared custody during the brief period he was sober, so I have to live with it.

But the counselor reassured me in saying "The only thing YOU have to do is provide a loving, safe, healthy home for them. They WILL see the difference, even if they don't say so. And if they ever get the chance to choose and voice their opinion, they WILL choose your home over his, because it makes them feel comfortable."

theuncertainty

Big hugs, Senseofagoose. You're wonderfully amazing! I love how strong and sure you sound in your post, even when you're acknowledging the difficulty.

DS was 3 when I left XAH. He also understood that something wasn't right in our home. He was... somewhat relieved and still confused about why we left and got our own apartment. I tried to explain that his daddy was sick and needed to do a lot of work to get better. I told him that Mommy and Daddy will always be his Mommy and his Daddy and we will love him always, we just need to live in different homes. Like how Grandpa, Auntie and Uncle, and Grandma are family, but they have their own homes. They're still family, just under different roofs.

In retrospect, wish I'd found a different way to explain his father's alcoholism. Because XAH told DS that he was all better even after several relapses and white-knuckle non-drinking. *sigh*

The book "The Brown Bottle" by Penny Jones does a really good job of explaining what alcoholism is like in a kid-appropriate way. There are days that DS, now 7, asks to have it read to him, and there are days when he refuses to even look at it.

I try to be as honest as I possibly can with him, without going into adult details. I very much want DS to have one parent he can count on to be truthful.

Thumper

I chose to tell my older boys a little about alcoholism. They were 8 and 10. My younger boys were 3 and I didn't tell them about alcoholism. My xah was not outwardly angry so they weren't afraid of him or anything. I will tell them more as they get older. It isn't a secret.

I told them all that adults have grown up problems and that it wasn't about the kids, because of the kids, couldn't be fixed by the kids. Sometimes those problems could not be resolved and so they lived in seperate houses. I also assured them that mom's and kids were different. Moms and kids never ever had problems to big to fix because they were born to me. They were part of me and Moms had special gifts to always fix problems with their kids. They were all still young enough to believe in mother magic, which flourishes in my house, lol.

There dad told them I didn't care to keep us all together so that last part was important to us.

theuncertainty

DS asked me once how I knew he'd done something and I laughed and said 'I'm a mother, I'm magic that way.' He later asked me if I went to Hogwarts.

Senseofagoose

Thanks so much to all of you who have replied.

I'm now two days away from the day when I will be telling AH he needs to leave. I can only describe my brain as feeling full of goo right now! I am feeling kind of numb, but increasingly nervous too. Ironically his behaviour has been "okay" for the last few days which in a way makes it harder but i have to keep reminding myself that i'm doing this not because of what he does or doesn't do this week, but because of his behaviour over the last few years and months and the fact that it's gradually getting worse. Repeat to self, repeat to self....

I worry that i'll just freeze up and not know what to say or rabbit on for an hour and vent which won't be helpful. Aargh. I have tried to map out the day and the few days after that. It's complicated - i'm telling him on Thursday so there will be someone else in the house looking after the 3 year old whilst i tell AH. This will stop me/him from being distracted by our son and also help to keep things calm as i don't think he will shout etc while he knows the nanny is there. I want him to go that day and stay somewhere else overnight. i don't know whether to give him the chance to say goodbye to the six year old after school or whether he should have gone by then to give a clean break. As i type this, i suspect i know what the answer should be - clean break??? If he won't go, i'll take the boys to stay somewhere overnight if needs be. But i think he'll agree to go. Then on Friday i'm taking the boys away for a week as it's the six year old's half-term holiday. I will tell AH that he can come back to stay in the house/move his stuff out while we're away and while he's finding somewhere else to live, but that he will have to be gone by the following Friday when i return with the boys. I wish i could just wave a magic wand for this bit to be all over. Argh again.

Thanks for letting me express the aarghs!

Senseofagoose.

wanttobehealthy

I am a 40 yr old mom with a 6 yr old and 3 yr old too. My estranged H is an alcoholic and for a long time we kept up the image of the happy family to the outside world. Inside though it was constant verbal and emotional abuse, constant tension, strain, stress and my 6 yr old is still incredibly jumpy/anxious/sensitive which no doubt is bc of growing up in an alcoholic home.

It took me several attempts of leaving, coming back, believing promises of change, relapses, fights, more leaving, more returning, before he left for good. It is not easy and he still tries to manipulate/guilt me/use the kids to hurt me etc... but it is infinitely better than it was.

Even if you struggle to leave or leave and then are confused, know that that is normal. It is hard and so many of us have been there and are there presently.

The hardest part for me is seeing how all of this impacts my 2 wonderful children. I felt a particular connection to your post since we are in the same place in life with similarly aged children.

Keeping you in my thoughts...

Senseofagoose

Wow, Wanttobehealthy, spookily the same. I wish you (everyone on this forum for that matter) hadn't gone through what you've gone through, but it is comforting to know that others out there really understand. Thanks for your good thoughts - it really does help. (A totally peripheral issue is that i bet that quite a few of our friends and acquaintances will be absolutely shocked when they find out that we have split up as we're supposed to be one of those "great couples". But hey, c'est la vie.)

I've read in a lot of posts about going "no contact" but I don't see how that's doable when small children are involved as, in time, i do want them to be able to spend time with him (as long as i feel it's safe and the right thing for them). If you don't mind me asking, how do you manage the dialogue with your estranged H? Don't feel you have to answer this not least as i know it's a whole big topic in itself!

naive

do you have the important documents out of the house? passports, birth certificates, etc.

also, i've seen in such cases, that the A cuts all access to money...do you have a plan?

you sound very prepared. just hand it all over to your hp. you're doing the right thing, help will be forthcoming.

Thumper

You will get through it. No matter how uncomfortable the conversation is it will not last forever. I understand how hard it is. Short and simple is what I recommend. You have done such a good job of planning.

As far as talking/no contact regarding the kids - I emailed only. I learned that really really fast. Our communication was done over email and I only responded to those emails that were legitimately about the kids and written in a reasonable fashion. I ignored all the rest and there was a lot to ignore. I would respond to small chit chat during drop off/pick up and totally ignored all the rest. Literally - just did not respond or engage - turned away and spoke to the kids. I had been answering the phone when he had the kids but I eventually started letting it go to voice mail - which I would listen to in case there was an emergency. I learned that after the last phone call was him ranting and screaming terrible things at me - and he lived in a one bedroom apartment - there is no way the kids did not hear all that It was such a traumatizing thing for them all the way around and my only regret is that I did not refuse to let him around them during that time.

wanttobehealthy

Senseofagoose- No contact with young kids is impossible (in my estimation). I have found that sticking to email works better than face to face or phone conversations for several reasons: a) I don't give AH the satisfaction of a reaction the way I might if I am face to face with him being a jerk and b) having a WRITTEN record of what we agree to is something I value bc I do not trust him to not manipulate and distort.

I spent a lot of time this summer and early fall getting into circular, futile conversations with him about his lack of follow through, broken promises to the girls and trying to explain to him why his manipulation of visits/time spent etc... wasn't okay.

After a lot of tears and angst I realized that trying to talk rationally to him about our kids was no more possible than trying to talk rationally to him about his drinking or behavior.

I was just posting here last week about some latest drama with AH and his mother and someone made the great suggestion that I limit what I say to the bare bones. I tend (as is obvious in my posts undoubtedly) to over explain. I do this with AH too and I offer help/accomodations/cooperation that ultimately leaves me screwed over.

My suggestion is to talk bare bones with your stbxAH. What time will he see the kids, where, when will they be back etc... Maybe some A's are capable of behaving in reasonable ways and having reasonable conversations with their spouses about their kids, but mine is not one of them and I suspect yours will not be either. My AH can keep it together and be Mr. Superman responsible at work all day long-- but ask him to be accountable to his kids or promises he makes and game over. He can't (or won't, rather) do it.

If I had to give one bit of advice it would be this; no matter how tempted you are, don't get caught in explaining, defending or justifying your choice to have him leave. There is never a time when justifying/defending or explaining why we are making healthy choices for us and our kids will be respected by an active A. I wish I'd heeded this advice a lot sooner than I did (and honestly I still struggle with this sometimes).

Write or pm me anytime. I totally understand where you are at right now. Thinking of you and your kids.

Thumper

Yes WTBH is right!! Facts only. Email lets you edit. Keep it to the facts only. I made a game to see how few words I could type that relayed the facts without being mean or sarcastic. Never one word about emotion, right, wrong, my feelings, my wishes, my plans. Not one word.

For one thing if I responded with anything but the facts I was invested and the response always always made me feel bad. Made me crazy. No more explaining and trying to get him to see. This was his hooks, his way to keep me confused and trapped. Changing the 'game' in that way made him go beserk. He had lost control and the emails came with increased intensity (ie emotional manipulation/blaming) and frequency but for a change it was him going crazy, not me.

wanttobehealthy

Senseofagoose- No contact with young kids is impossible (in my estimation). I have found that sticking to email works better than face to face or phone conversations for several reasons: a) I don't give AH the satisfaction of a reaction the way I might if I am face to face with him being a jerk and b) having a WRITTEN record of what we agree to is something I value bc I do not trust him to not manipulate and distort.

I spent a lot of time this summer and early fall getting into circular, futile conversations with him about his lack of follow through, broken promises to the girls and trying to explain to him why his manipulation of visits/time spent etc... wasn't okay.

After a lot of tears and angst I realized that trying to talk rationally to him about our kids was no more possible than trying to talk rationally to him about his drinking or behavior.

I was just posting here last week about some latest drama with AH and his mother and someone made the great suggestion that I limit what I say to the bare bones. I tend (as is obvious in my posts undoubtedly) to over explain. I do this with AH too and I offer help/accomodations/cooperation that ultimately leaves me screwed over.

My suggestion is to talk bare bones with your stbxAH. What time will he see the kids, where, when will they be back etc... Maybe some A's are capable of behaving in reasonable ways and having reasonable conversations with their spouses about their kids, but mine is not one of them and I suspect yours will not be either. My AH can keep it together and be Mr. Superman responsible at work all day long-- but ask him to be accountable to his kids or promises he makes and game over. He can't (or won't, rather) do it.

If I had to give one bit of advice it would be this; no matter how tempted you are, don't get caught in explaining, defending or justifying your choice to have him leave. There is never a time when justifying/defending or explaining why we are making healthy choices for us and our kids will be respected by an active A. I wish I'd heeded this advice a lot sooner than I did (and honestly I still struggle with this sometimes).

Write or pm me anytime. I totally understand where you are at right now. Thinking of you and your kids.

Senseofagoose

Good points. Yes i've got those documents at work and, fortunately, i have my own income and my own bank account so for now at least i'm financially independent. I probably will need money from him going forwards but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

You know, i actually think it's my HP that has helped me to get prepared. I'm not religious but i do think some benign force that's bigger than any of us (or fate, or whatever) has surrounded me with some really amazing people who have shown me what to do. They have all been wonderful. And reading SR has been a huge help too!