Ms.TimmyV

Hi, everyone! I hope all is well with everyone reading this post. I have a question, and please forgive me, but I am a recovering addict/alcoholic and have been clean for five years. I don't know if I should even been in here asking questions considering the situation, but here we go!

I have a really good friend, and we have been friends for about 20 years. We have recently gotten close once again after about 10 years. During this time, she met and married her husband, who is unfortunately an alcoholic. She talks to me about it and I listen. I have told her my story and how I've gotten clean, and how it has affected my marriage. Luckily, things are on the mend, but it took a pretty nasty hit, but, thank the good Lord above, I decided to clean myself up and things have gotten soooo much better.

The thing I find the most distressing is that she thinks she can control his drinking. I have told her many, many times that she cannot. She tells me that he doesn't drink "that much" and it's only once in a while. I asked her if it was causing a problem, and she said it was. I explained to her then his drinking, no matter much, is a problem. She told me that if he drinks (and she works at night, so she leave her son with her husband, who may or may not be drinking) again when she's not home she's leaving, but has no real plan. "It's not that bad" is a recurring theme here.

See, here's the thing. Why won't she tell him he's an alcoholic? Why does she keep minimizing and making up excuses to me, a recovering alcoholic? I do want to help; my husband telling straight up how he felt is what really made it click in my head and I'm trying to encourage her, through my stories, to do it. I haven't come right out with it; I want her to come to that conclusion on her own.

I offered to go with her to an ala-non meeting, and I also offered to take her to my home group so I can get some back up on what I'm trying to convey here. I explained to her that while I do care about her and want the best for her, I will not commiserate with no plan of action. Go to a meeting? Sure! Help her understand how alcoholism works? Absolutely! Step work a little confusing? I'll be right over! But to sit on the phone to listen to complaining and bitching for hours I will not do, and I told her that, in a nice way of course. I said that her chips are just about up, and there is no more "schooling" I can do without moving onto the next which is some help.

If this were anything else I would have stuck a fork in it long ago. But this is something so near to me, and it's serious. They have a son, and growing up with an alcoholic parent (how I remember the whiskey kisses) and stressed out other parent? is no fun. I already see signs the kid stressed and it sucks because it's something that can be helped.

I'm pretty certain I already know the answer to this question, but is anything I'm saying to her sinking in? Can someone help me understand the "normal person" side of things?

Cyranoak

Hi There,

You are totally in the right place and totally welcome here. Being in one program does not preclude being in another, nor does it minimize your legitimacy or contributions. In fact, IMHO, it adds to them.

From what I read you have a very solid understanding of recovery and said and did exactly what I hope I would do in the same situation. You set a very appropriate and loving boundary with somebody who is still trying to control somebody else's drinking and doesn't know anything about recovery in Alanon or AA. I was that person too, and even from those shoes I think you did right.

Take care, be here all you want, and remember that it's up to your friend to accept your gracious offer of help, or not, but either way what happens next is her responsibly.

Take what you want and leave the rest.

Cyranoak

dollydo

She is very codependent and even if she would tell hubby that he is an alcoholic he would not believe or agree to that statement.

You have done what you can do, she is not responsive to recovering from codependency. I would set my bounderies with her and say what I mean and mean what I say.

If having a relationship with her causes you too much stress you may decide to let go and cultivate some new more healthy relationships.

Congrats on your soberity!

lillamy

Well... if it's one thing alcoholics and codies have in common it's that they just won't listen to reason...

I was married to an alcoholic for 20 years. I worked with alcoholics my entire career (as coworkers). Somehow, even though I was familiar with AA and Al-Anon, had friends who were recovering alcoholics, and had heard it all... I could not see for years that my husband was an alcoholic. Sure, he drank. But he was different. You know, he had reason to drink [insert all the bad stuff that happens to people without them having to drink here, as explanation to why he was different].

I think what made the quarter drop for me (if anyone's old enough to get that metaphor) wasn't people talking about him -- it was people talking about me. People giving me the right to care about myself and my own life. Giving me the right to detach from him, see myself as my own person, pay attention to how I felt, what I wanted, whether the life I was living was the life I wanted.

For me, it was when I started focusing on myself, my thoughts, my feelings, my behaviors, my dreams, that I realized that they were incompatible with continuing living with an alcoholic husband.

You are probably not a good example to her, because you're (in her eyes) not really an alcoholic. Because alcoholics smell bad and live under bridges. Seriously. That's what I thought, even when my husband was downing a 75cl bottle of hard booze every night, puking in the sink, and falling asleep on the bathroom floor.

And you can always send her here. But be warned, that she'll probably have the same reaction I did when I first came here: "Those people are mean and they don't understand how unique my situation is."

That's six years ago. I'm still here. And the longer I spend here, the less unique I realize I am. And so is my now former, still alcoholic, husband.

Ms.TimmyV

Thisssss...right here touches a nerve. "Well, yoooou had things really tough. Youuuu had a hard life. I can see why you turned to alcohol and drugs. But my husband, he would never do something like that. His problem isn't that bad."

It is AWESOME that you realize this. It is really a profound realization, and once you come to terms with it, it really puts things into perspective. How long did it take for you to figure this out? Do you really know these things but have a hard time accepting it? I'm sorry if I'm prying, but I'm truly curious!

Allow me to be frank for a moment. Anyone that is reading this post who doesn't already know it should know and understand one addict/alcoholic isn't better than the other. Getting your fix from the doctor instead of the man on the corner doesn't make you better. Drinking wine instead of hard alcohol doesn't make you better. Being a violent drunk versus happy, silly or whatever else type of drunk makes you better. You still lie, you still cheat, you still deceive and still have a compulsion just like the man under the bridge! That goes for the person who you're making excuses for, too.

choublak

First of all, I just want to say I admire your patience and understanding here. If someone made that comment to me, I'd be like, "EXCUSE me?" lol

As to why she won't tell him he's an alcoholic, maybe she already has tried to, and her husband either got really angry and defensive, or tried to convince her otherwise and she believed him, or a combination. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if her husband told her something like what I quoted above. And, people believe what they want to believe, until ready to face the truth.

lillamy

My mother told me my husband was an alcoholic about eight years into the marriage. After twelve, my father told me my husband was not welcome to their house anymore. At that point, my husband wanted me to break all contact with them. I didn't. They never told me what to do, just told me I deserved a better life. It wasn't until 16 years into the marriage that I said the words "he is an alcoholic" and believed it. And then I spent four years in Al-Anon before I worked up the strength to choose to leave.

I do think I knew. But didn't want to accept it. I think here's how it worked: I thought if I said "he's an alcoholic," that that automatically meant I had to do certain things. That the "he is an alcoholic" triggered a whole to-do list. I think Al-Anon taught me that wasn't true. That I had a choice, but that I should make my choice with eyes wide open.

And that, I did. It took me a long time to decide to leave. I tried living with an actively drinking alcoholic, and Al-Anon made it possible for me to do it and retain some sanity. Even regain some sanity.

And maybe that's something you could say to your friend. That Al-Anon isn't a place where you Learn How To Leave Your Husband -- it's a place where you learn to live a rich life regardless of what your spouse chooses to do.

I mean, really -- I don't know a single person who couldn't benefit from the skills and tools that program has to offer. If you're not married to an A, I'm willing to bet you're working with one or will, at some point. And the tools of detachment and minding your own business and setting boundaries, those are great for anyone...

theuncertainty

Denial is a very strong force. I left XAH because of his drinking. Almost 2 years after that, I started seeing a counselor specializing in addictions to try to learn how to communicate with XAH, because I still *knew* I HAD to be saying everything wrong. I still thought that if I tried just a little harder, if I finally found the right words, it could still turn out OK.

And my thought process was, just as Lillamy says, that he's not *THAT* bad. My imaginary line would get smudged and I would re-draw it a little further back:
He only drinks on the weekends. Then,
He only drinks during the evenings.
He's never been hung over when going to work.
He's never NOT gone in to work.
He's never gone in to work still under the influence.
He still has a job.
He can still get a job.

exactly.

You've done what you can. You've offered help. You've pointed out tools that she can pick up to use. You can probably occasionally make the offer of going to an Alanon meeting with her if she brings up her husband's drinking and her problems with it. But there is no way to make it sink in for her unless / until she's ready to hear it. Hugs.

Ms.TimmyV

Yup. I knew that was the case. There is absolutely more I can do beside what I've done.

How do I say we can talk about this, but we can't talk about that? Is that even a possibility?

Nonmaleficence

There is no way to force her to do anything. She is being blinded and needs to be able to see it through your eyes. Keep trying to get her to understand your experiences.

dancingnow

Thank you Ms.TV for your experience.

It's very interesting to hear from a recovered A POV wanting a codie to stop being a codie.

You did say I think I already know the answer to this and that's what so many living with A's say.

Just wondering how old your friend's son is and how safe is it leaving her child home with her AH who may or may not drink? Safety is something that really slapped me in the face and what brought me round to dealing with reality. It had to do with driving my kids around and both AH and I had to come out of denial enough to know that a plan had to be put in place for that.

dancingnow

Thank you Ms.TV for your experience.

It's very interesting to hear from a recovered A POV wanting a codie to stop being a codie.

You did say I think I already know the answer to this and that's what so many living with A's say.

Just wondering how old your friend's son is and how safe is it leaving her child home with her AH who may or may not drink? Safety is something that really slapped me in the face and what brought me round to dealing with reality. It had to do with driving my kids around and both AH and I had to come out of denial enough to know that a plan had to be put in place for that.

Ponder

Good point. I sometimes hesitate leaving my dogs alone with ABF.. not comparing them to children.. but I love them like they were.

winnie1202

If your friend needs to put a plan in place for her child. The child needs to know it is "safe" to say no if dad wants to drive and wants him to go with him. That it is safe for the child to call mom when he is worried for his own safety and it is not a betrayal of dad's trust.

I regret not getting involved earlier in Alanon before I did. I was so worried about "appearances" rather that the mental health of the rest of us. After years of being a hard drinker, finally admitting he was an alcoholic and doing an inhouse program be is now 4 months sober. While this was going on DYFS got involved when the out patient program which he fell off the wagon before the inhouse program found out he was probably over the limit with our daughter in the car one evening when I wasn't around. So scary to have them question your life. He went into program a few days later.

Ms.TimmyV

It is, isn't it? She is my friend, yes, but I consider her to be a sister as she has been there for me in so many ways. When my family decided they no longer wanted to care for me, her family took me in. When my addiction diverted my attention to other things and people we lost contact. It's only been in the last few months that this has come out. I knew her husband was an alcoholic, but not what was going on exactly. You see, the thing is she can be so convincing. I can't explain it...but I really believed that she had it all under control. Then the excuses started: But he doesn't, he would never, I can control it, he had a rough childhood...that's when the warning flares went up.

I mean, you can't tell what demons a person is dealing with until you've been around them for a while. So, I didn't know how codependent she was until very recently.

Gotta love DYFS! I live in NJ too, and had my time with them. By the grace of God it had nothing to do with addiction, I was already clean for quite some time. My son has brittle bone disease (and I do, too) and at the time, I didn't know it. My son had fallen so I took him to the ER. His ankles were broken and he had three healing fractures. The ER doc said they were suspicious and called DYFS. What MESS that was. They were in my life for six months. The homemakers lived in my house for two weeks. After a while, the social worker backed off and we were just going through the motions. She explained to me that very often there will be one concern, they will find many more. She also explain to me that failing to protect your child is just as bad as abusing your child.

That experience only reinforced my sobriety for so many reasons. I didn't know anything was wrong with my son! It was a normal visit to the ER that any normal parent would do. Imagine if my fridge was filled with booze when they went to my house for a home inspection? Imagine if my husband was an alkie and was passed out drunk when they got there? Imagine if either one of us were arrested for DV issues, or violence issues because they did background checks on both of us. Oh, and they paid a visit to the local police department to make sure there weren't any DV calls out to our home. Don't think just because my son had broken bones they did this; they had a diagnosis a week later but they hung around for six more months. It took four doctors to reverse ONE allegation. My past never came up, but if it did it would have been fine...I think, you never know with them! I was active in my home group, had a sponsor, was doing H&I (hospitals and institutions) and was in counseling for good measure.

The whole point of that entire paragraph was to stress to people reading this who have children and are dealing with an addiction or an addict; you don't know what can happen from one day to the next. You don't know when these people can show up on your doorstep. It just isn't worth it.

Ouch, sorry for rambling.

lillamy

Growling a little bit over here, because I'm fighting on every front I've been able to find (within legal bounds) to protect my children from having to spend time with an actively drinking alcoholic father.

If failing to protect a child is as bad as abusing a child, I should sue the state.

Ms.TimmyV

Explanation? I do not understand how allowing your child to be abused is not failure to protect. Not saying you are by a long shot, so please don't take it that way. I think we all know what failure to protect is, especially is a CPS social worker is talking to you about it.

theuncertainty

I completely understand this. I was utterly convincing, too. If I could convince myself that what XAH was doing was OK, of course I could convince people who weren't living in our home and dealing with it every day that we were OK. It all kind of goes back to what Choublak said about people believing what they want to believe. It's much easier to believe some one who believes they're telling the truth than it is to believe some one who thinks they might be telling a lie. (People who know they're lying and don't care, that's a different can of worms...) It's when you get into the details, the facts, that you start to see the picture more objectively instead of as perceived through the lens of alcoholism/abuse/enabling.

Hugs, Lillamy. I've been wondering nearly the same thing: Why is an abusive alcoholic's right to see (i.e. get a chance to seriously hurt) his child more important than that child's right to be safe?

theuncertainty

CPS and the divorce/custody courts have two different sets of standards that they apply when dealing with children. CPS tends to step in and/or remove children from homes where there is alcohol or drug use and/or abuse, even if it's just one parent who is addicted or abusive.

Divorce/custody courts, tend to send those same children back to live with or at least visit the alcoholic/addicted/abusive parent. IF the children and mother are lucky, it will be just visits and those visits will be supervised. However, that is not always the case.

Ms.TimmyV

I'm so sorry, lillamy. I didn't know. I was thinking from a CPS standpoint and not from a divorce stand point. But you're right, that is failure to protect in a big way. Hell, I'm 35 and still have no desire at all to see my alcoholic mother. I'd be so sad if I didn't have a choice. At least your child knows you have one person in their corner. I'm sure it means a lot to them.

@uncertainty, thank you for the clarity because I was really confused. Another question; are there control issues with codependency? Sometimes she'll suggest that I do something in a certain way (like force feeding my kids) and I'll say no, that's not how I do things. She won't come outright and say it, but I can tell she's ticked off that I didn't follow her advice.

I would still like for her to be my friend, but what are some do's and don'ts when it comes to dealing with someone who suffers from codependency?