EveningRose

It's sad to see (enlightening, though) how many of us are here posting about Christmas.

I've once again had my younger kids ask if we can go to Grandma and Grandpa's for Christmas Eve. In previous years, I've simply said no. This year, they actually got "I'll think about it."

A part of me says, I can bite the bullet for their sake. It's only a few hours at worst.

The other part of me says, WTH should I go spend any time at all with people who treat me like crap? A sister who has gone into screaming rages at me, a father who swears at me, threatens me, and has been physically violent in the past even when I was an adult (he now denies that ever happened); another sister who sits and says nothing to those who scream and rage at me publicly, but is quick on my back for a muttered comment that no one else even heard, a mother who has spent years telling people negative and untrue things about me that have very possibly harmed my relationships with others and taken away some of the life I could have had without her slander; a brother in law who has been snubbing me for years giving me the cold shoulder and the rest of the family either pretends I'm crazy for saying it's happening or will tell me I deserve it if they acknowledge it;

for people who are going to sit in judgment on my parenting and set up impossible hoops for me to jump through--I'm supposed to be social and cheerful with everyone and yet at the same time be absolutely 100% on top of each of 9 kids making sure not a single one of them does or says anything that will 'annoy' anyone else in the entire group. Seriously? This isn't even humanly possible.

for people who will tell me to my face that I didn't do things I objectively, verifiably absolutely DID do, and tell me I must go do them so we can have peace (again...huh??? I'm already doing those things and if they simply deny I am, what more can I do???)

Do I suck it up and give these people a chance to at least be civil this year in the hopes that several years without their grandchildren has made them think about how they behave? (haha)

Or do I disappoint my children again?

I'm kind of angry with the older kids, because I know darn well they would NEVER tolerate someone treating them the way my family has treated me (maybe because they were raised to know they deserve to be treated wtih basic human dignity?) but they want me to go sit and accept this treatment. And I know if anyone does anything I ahve a choice of accept it quietly and send them the message I'm their doormat, or say no and have a family fight that will be blamed on me.

I'm thinking as someone else said in another forum, I can simply pick up and leave. But it's very hard to simply pick up 9 children and go.

ColetteTocca

If these were strangers you wouldn't want your kids to be around people like this, would you? Sharing DNA with these people shouldn't trump what you know to be true: if it's not healthy for you to be around your family, what makes you think it would be healthy for your kids?

I vote you seriously consider not going. Your kids maybe disappointed in the short run but they will thank you later when they turn out to be healthy, functioning adults.

dollydo

I would share my time with people who I believe would have a postive impact on my minor children.

As for those over 18, it is up to them, if they decide to be exposed to the toxic Christmas celebration, then that is their choice.

You already know the answer, you are too far along in your recovery to not know the answer.

As always, I wish you the best....the best of the Holiday Spirit...as ever...Dolly

EveningRose

Thank you, both.

I have not stopped the older ones, ever, going to visit their grandparents or aunts and uncles. My over 18 son gave me a bit of an earful this evening, after I posted, that just because he has a fight with his sister doesn't mean he expects no one to talk to her. I said there's a difference between a 2-way disagreement and a mugging, and that I have never prevented him talking to his grandparents or said a word about it.

He told me he's sure I think things happened and believe I'm right and he's sure they believe they're right, that I've done my own things, and he just doesn't want to be in the middle of it. I didn't bother telling him that I don't merely 'think' there were screaming rages, hateful phone calls, vulgar language, threats, and physical assaults, but that they did in fact happen. I didn't bother pointing out that I did not do any of those things. It would have made no difference.

The good news as far as healing is that once, I would have gone into depression, anger, frustration, and even self-hatred over that brief conversation. Tonight, I felt irritation at worst, but mainly at peace, not even interested in pursuing it or convincing him.

I think what makes it hard is that my family does not show this side to my children. Or, I suppose they do--my kids did witness the screaming rage, but none of the other things I mentioned--but my kids think it's a normal one time loss of temper? I guess most of it, my kids don't see, as it's been done in e-mails, phone calls, and when kids are not around.

I think my kids don't really want to see it. If I tell them about it, it's going to come across as me trying to turn them against their grandparents, so I really don't talk about it, so they really don't know the whole story, and my son seemed to make it clear tonight that he's not interested in the whole story and simply wants to remain neutral.

dollydo

To be honest, I have never been able to explain abuse in its truest form. Perhaps, there really is no explaining it, I lived it, yet I cannot clearly relate the experience to others. It is a lifestyle that no one should have to be exposed to or endure, yet, some like me and you have experienced pure hell on earth, yet we have survived and to the best of our ability, have moved forward.

Your children will find their own truth, all you can do is continue to guide them, and understand that their truth may not be yours, it is all a part of life, we all grow differently and all to a different level.

Keep your resolve, you are good mother, be proud.

Willybluedog

Rose,

The important thing is that you know the truth.

My childrens grandparents have no resemblance to the parents who raised me.

My children have no concept of how my parents acted when I was a child, but they are starting to see their grandmother as the self-absorbed alcoholic that I have put up with for 40+ years.

It is probably best that your kids don't want to get in the middle, they may know the truth but the pressure on them to take sides may just be too much for them.

Please hold firm to your boundaries, the younger children should not be exposed to your parents and siblings propaganda and negativity.

Best of luck to you, I will keep you and your children in my prayers.

Bill

Kialua

This "perceived reality" always irritates me. There ARE bad guys and there ARE oppressed victims, not just what I "thought" happened. So if evil people simply believe they are not evil but good and still do evil things, then in their reality they are good. I think that is a very good definition of crazy. My sisters use this on me too. Even though they saw me get beat daily.

But I guess this is the hard part of parenting, saying No and having them be mad. But what good does it do to take them somewhere where you will be alienated from them in the long run. it sounds like they have already alienated your son from you.

My vote is have the offenders to your house where you are in charge and can ask them to leave if need be. And only have one or two of them over at a time, no group parties.

Good luck and congrats on 9 children!

GingerM

At 18, your son has not seen enough of the world to be able to be a reliable indicator of what "people" behave like. He simply doesn't have the experience.

That being said, the *only* way I would go, if I were you, would be to demonstrate to your children how NOT to treat other people and why, in the future, you will not go again. I would use it as a teaching moment.

Which is not to say I think you should or should not go. Just saying that *if* I was to go it would be more so that the children (including the 18 year old) could see what you're describing for themselves. That way, the following year, either they won't ask to go at all, or they'll be better able to understand when you say "Remember X, Y and Z happening last year? I won't subject myself to that, and there is no reason for any person to subject themselves to negative treatment at the hands of others, whether they're related or not."

My own husband didn't believe that my entire family was completely nutters until several years after we got married. About the zillionth time my dad swore he was never going to speak to me, or the zillionth time my dad called me drunk and was yelling at me so loudly that my husband could understand him even though I didn't have him on speaker phone. Only then did he start believing that the behaviors I described were not being exaggerated. Children especially, and many adults, often simply can't believe something that they've never experienced themselves.

My husband now believes.

One of the reasons that I love this forum is that almost any family issue I have to deal with, people here understand without me having to go into great long explanations. I can simply say "I really hate the holidays" and I can hear people nodding their heads along with me, even through the internet.

That kind of understanding only comes, unfortunately, from shared experience. If you successfully keep your kids from witnessing the behavior, they'll have difficulty believing it to be true. If you let them experience it, they'll be more likely to understand, but it will open an entirely different can of worms. Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

EveningRose

Thank you for your prayers. Often enough, I have wondered where God is and why my prayers aren't answered, but today, I felt completely at peace, despite him starting in about going for Christmas Eve. I continued to pray, and I ended up going to dinner with a couple of the older kids (him included) and a younger one, at his request.

I have gone out of my way not to make them feel they have to take sides, because my mother did that to us, and I hated it, hated hearing how awful other people were. It's funny, though, that they see some of the stuff my mother does, the constant self-absorbed talking, for instance, but don't really see as anything other than something they kind of laugh at and roll their eyes at. I'm wondering how long until they notice that they have contact with their grandparents mostly because they themselves make the effort. Or how long until they notice the way my mother puts so much time and energy into my sister's kids but has never made any effort to have their younger brothers over. She has not once invited them over in almost a decade we've lived here, compared to 40+ hours a week with my sister's kids.

It also remains true, of course, that my parents simply do not behave with my kids as they do to me.

EveningRose

Yes, the difference between a mutual drunken brawl and a thug mugging a child. And listening to my son, I suspect he's heard my parents and siblings claiming that I 'imagine' things--something one of my mother's own friends warned me she is saying about me, and what my dad told me on the phone when he asked once what I was upset about and I gave him a long list of the ugly things he's said and done. He literally claimed I 'imagined' it all.

This is exactly one of the reasons I don't take the younger kids to see my parents, because I don't need them teaching my kids that I'm crazy and imagine things that never happened.

So true. But of course, he doesn't see that.

I have decided I definitely won't take them tomorrow. The thing is, they probably will never see it, because apart from the one screaming rage, all of this stuff has happened out of public view--before they were born, things said and done that my siblings didn't witness, the more recent things being said in phone calls and e-mails that my kids don't see or hear.

The only way they'll ever see it is if my parents or siblings turn on them for some reason. In the meantime, because they see the good things, they're prone to believing that if these people act differently, someone must have done something to deserve it. They're already primed to believe the family line that maybe I did something to bring this on.

I know even if I point out some of the obvious things like...notice how they keep inviting the kids without actually speaking to me, as if you kids don't even have a mother, as if I don't need to be consulted...they'll explain that I forced them to do that by not talking to my parents. Never mind that my mother is capable of calling me any time she likes to ask me directly. Never mind that I only blocked my dad's number BECAUSE he harrassed, swore at, and out and out threatened me in the first place.

They've got the entire family--my parents and siblings--all giving them the same story, that I've somehow done something to cause all of this.

tromboneliness

My parents are gone -- and I'm finding that the hard part is that no one seems to understand how tough it was to be their kid. Their friends -- and a lot of my relatives -- seem to think that my parents were lots of fun, always the life of the party, fantastic people, blah-blah. Very few of them have any idea of what it was like at home. In our case, there was no physical abuse -- but there was tremendous control, shame, horrible fights between my parents from Day 1, lots of booze, and a general sense that as their kid, I didn't count. Nobody gets it.

So I've pretty much written off most of my extended family and all but a few of my parents' old friends. Tough cookies, but it's better that way. Tomorrow will consist of my wife and me, here at home. I might even turn off my phone!

T

Willybluedog

Often enough, I have wondered where God is and why my prayers aren't answered.

Rose,

The book "Conversations with God" by Neale Donald Walsh helped me with these types of thoughts, he explains that God is always there and is always listening but he may want us to learn a lesson that can only be taught by his non-answer.

I am so glad you have found some peace in your decision, if you need to talk I will be here.

Have a wonderful and peaceful Christmas.

Bill

EveningRose

Same here, no physical abuse per se, although there were a few incidents, few and far between, over the years of AF losing his temper and getting violent. But the sense that I simply didn't count as a kid is strong. It struck me one day as the kids were all over the kitchen, in and out, and I was trying to work, as I squeezed through and said, "Excuse me." I remembered how my dad would charge through, barking, "OUT THE WAY!" sometimes a hand on the forehead shoving if we didn't move fast enough. Or the sense that anything we were in the middle of, which for me included activities that would lead to my later career, didn't matter. If he wanted something, we were supposed to run. Telling me as I was walking out the door to pick up a friend of the National Honor Society meeting that I had to shovel the driveway first, and too bad if I was late to the meeting or to honor my word to someone else.

I was also raised with the constant lesson that I was being too demanding if I expected anything from anyone else, but I myself always had to be more flexible, more understanding, more forgiving, more lenient, always be the one to see their point of view and see where I had screwed up and maybe caused the problem.

Yes, it was control and shame, hurtful, tearing-down words, accusations from my mother of being a liar when I wasn't.

I don't know if my relatives don't get it or just have no interest in 'taking sides.' And again, I'm starting to feel like this is 'not taking sides' in the case of a 22 yo thug mugging a little old lady.

On the positive side for me, a couple of my mother's friends from church have spoken up lately and said some things that show they see her clearly for who she is and don't approve of or believe the things she's saying about me.

Bill, I'll look into that book. It's funny, we spent a fortune moving closer to my parents so the kids could have extended family, and obviously, it hasn't turned out so well (haha, understatement of the year, it's been a nightmare) but I feel very much at peace with having moved back, that there were reasons I had to.

hope2be

Hello to all,
Trombon: This is exactly what my childhood was like. My Mom didn't drink, but my Dad made up for it and her contolling codependency made it a nightmare. The fights were traumatic, especially in the middle of the night....hearing the voices getting louder, then hearing the thumps and bumps...being told to go back to bed. LOts of trauma for a child to witness. Hell, my heart is beating fast right now, just thinking about it.

My parents are now both deceased, but holiday family dysfunctions continue.

I did not celebrate Christmas this year and there is some sadness to that. I just can't stomach any more of the trying to be happy. On Christmas Eve, I was invited to stop by my sister's for her annual family get together. We all live down the same street. I just didn't want to see all the dysfunction staring me in the face and then pulling myself together so I could go to work.

I always knew that other families went through this, but it's so refreshing that you all step forward to tell your stories. It helps me to work through my issues,
Huggs,
Hope