Mightyqueen801

Just wanted to share this here because the statement took me by surprise.

On a parenting forum, a woman posted that her neighbor was drunk all the time. She felt sorry for the woman's teenage daughters, and wanted to reach out to help them and was wondering if she should.

One of the people who replied is a regular poster, a mother of young children herself who is a recovering alcoholic/addict. Her response was that the neighbor might want to take the drunken mother aside and let her know that she's observed that she has a problem and if she ever wants to talk about it or get help finding resources to let her know. She said to do this nonjudgmentally, of course, but she also said that "most alcoholics are deeply ashamed of their inability to stop drinking."

That last part just sort of bowled me over. It has always been my perception that the exact opposite is true and a huge part of the alcoholic's problem--alcoholics have always seemed to me to display ZERO sense of shame whatsoever about their inability to stop drinking and especially as to how their drinking harms others.

Is it just me or would anyone else be surprised by the statement the RA made?

GettingBy

I've read that and heard RAs say that at open AA meetings... but when face to face with my active, non-recoverying AH, and he's slinging blame at me... I have a real hard time believing it.

laurie6781

During my 24 years of practicing my affliction, I stayed in 'denial' until the end by continuing to 'numb' myself. When confronted I had a million 'excuses' and always 'deflected' by 'blaming' others including the person trying to help me.

Yes, I drank to STAY NUMB. By doing that, alcohol became my Master. Alcohol helped to distort my thinking. Alcohol helped me NOT to look at me.

Some of us reach our bottoms, hopefully sooner than I did and many do not.

Every A is different and at the same time every A is the same.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

StarCat

I felt the same way about XABF, until I realized the convoluted alcohol-induced thought process that was running behind the scenes.

Maybe if he convinced me that is was my fault, then maybe, just maybe, he could believe that, too, and stop feeling so guilty.

The things he blamed on others were things that he blamed himself for, and by forcing others to adopt the blame themselves, he was trying to relieve himself of that burden. It was hard to see while dealing with the active alcoholism, but now that I've had time separate from it I've been able to see that he was always forgiving of my faults that actually were mine.
(Well, except for towards the end of my relationship with him, but by then he was blaming everyone for everything, real and imagined, delusional accusations, anything to keep him from facing what he felt. That was a later stages on the downward spiral of alcoholism, the part where it was better to talk about how Kennedy was in a secret hospital in the Midwest sharing a room with an assassinated Pope because the government didn't want anyone to know Kennedy was still alive, and the Catholic Church didn't want the pope to reveal how they funded the Nazis.)

PaperDolls

As an alkie and a codie -- I have to say, I had a huge amount of shame. Any perception I put out there that I didn't was 1) to make me feel better 2) to make you believe I was tough and 3) because I believed my own lies.

vujade

I just had this conversation last night with my RAB. Once I asked him what the best part of drinking was. He said "The first 30 minutes." I asked "What is the worst part?" and he replied "The next 10 hours." He said the guilt and shame he felt was unbearable. Coupled with the anxiety and depression he felt from withdrawal, it became a vicious cycle to numb it out.

He also said that it is absolutely exhausting to have to plan your whole day around drinking...how to get it, where to do it, what lies to make up, keeping the lies straight. He said it was easier to just steer clear of as many people as he could just so he didn't run the risk of getting caught in a lie or have his plan thrown off.

GettingBy

Ooophaw. That fits me to a tee. I too (like my AH) have tons of shame. I think for the longest time, I shoved all the blame onto my AH and his drinking - that way I didn't have to face my own crap. Thanks for that post Paperdolls.

seek

This post makes me sad because my AD has a real aversion to "guilt" and I could never understand it . . . she actively told my grandchild "never to her guilt you" in front of me, undermining my authority . . . I tried to explain that a healthy conscience is a good thing, but it was like we were on two different wavelengths.

I feel bad because I wonder if she succeeded in training my grandchild to not have a good conscience and I feel bad for her because she is so racked with guilt, yet continues to do things that would inspire legitimate guilt.

In the end, it is just weakness of character and refusal to take responsibility and that makes me angry because to live that way is not smart . . . I know I have issues, believe me (with my judgmental assertions). Just wanted to write how it really is for me and what I think about this issue . . . it is a big one.

lillamy

I absolutely think this is true.
And that is why they have to create a whole alternate reality where it's OK for them to continue.

Every successfully recovering alcoholic I know has incredible amounts of guilt and shame over what they have done to the people around them. Every. Single. One.

But not until they've gotten sober and far enough into recovery to replace their alternate reality with a real one.

I think if you ask, an RA will tell you that they had terrible guilt and shame over their addiction while they were actively drinking. But that the addiction was stronger than their shame.

LifeRecovery

This post got me thinking.

I was feeling pretty poorly about myself to really believe what my exH was telling me (especially when he was actively binging). I was so hooked into how bad he was feeling, that part never occurred to me.

Gosh no wonder this can make such a huge mess for everyone involved.

This thread has allowed me to have compassion, for both of us.

seek

Just to add to my previous post . . . the "answer" is for the A to "man up" and get some character . . . I know that sounds pompous and simplistic, but why do they get a pass for having such weak character?

They "should" (appropriately) feel guilty for not only what they have done to others, but what they have done to themselves . . . I don't think it serves anyone to feel sorry for their weakness . . . but compassion is another issue and I am starting to understand a little bit so thank you to the OP for introducing this topic.

I will just pray for the AD in my life to become healthy and whole and connected to their spirituality. That is just my belief, not trying to preach . . .

Cyranoak

It was true about my wife. Her shame and guilt were huge motivators in her continuing to drink. In my opinion, that is why many people can't truly find recovery until after they admit TO THEMSELVES that they are alcoholics and they need help. At least for my wife, that's when she was able to overcome her shame and begin REAL recovery.

I think the poster was correct, all due respect to those that disagree.

Cyranoak

seek

Just because this is such a huge issue for me . . .the truth is not that the alcoholic can't quit drinking, but that they choose not to . . . because when and if they ever get ready, they stop. In the meantime, there is no concern for the cost to anyone.

And it is not true that they don't "know" what they are doing - they know because their loved ones are telling them, the courts are telling them, etc. They just don't care enough to change until they care enough to change.

TakingCharge999

Gladly I report I no longer try to find out the why's behind someone else' s actions or words or thoughts

(I do not even understand my own)

I use the image of a messy thread when I try to "go there"

Who knows why people hurt themselves and others? what matters is if I need to be around them. What matters are my motivations and my beliefs of what I deserve in this short precious time on Earth.

‎"No one heals himself by wounding another." - St. Ambrose of Milan

laurie6781

B U L L

Now that really pizzed me off. There was NO CHOICE in it. By the time I realized I was so hooked on alcohol that I would die if I quit and I would die if I stayed drinking it was way to late.

I suggest you go read A LOT more about what is being found out about 'addiction' be it to alcohol or drugs. There are many factors involved and WILL POWER IS NOT one of them.

Please do not ASSUME you know about what makes an alcoholic drink. We don't even know until and when we sober up. And many never get there. Alcohol was my MASTER. My life REVOLVED around it, how much I had left, did I have enough money to get more (the he!! with the bills) where I would get more, and when I would get more, and HP help ANYONE that got in my way.

I have found the above to be true of every alcoholic and/or addict I have worked with over the last 30+ years.

No they don't know. Alcohol KILLS the brain cells, the 'thinking' what is left of it becomes warped. I have the brain scans to prove it. My neurologist has used my scans and others like it to write several papers about the fact that IF an A can find recovery and stay in recovery their brains WILL BUILD NEW PATHWAYS. I have parts of my brain, that are active in other people (those who haven't fried their brains) that are TOTALLY DEAD in mine. I have other parts of my brain, that are hardly used by most folks that I have BUILT NEW PATHWAYS to become, once again an activie participant in civilized society.

Oh and btw, when I reached my end and had enough brain left to realize I wanted to die sober I stopped COLD TURKEY, 24 hours later they were writing the T O D on my chart in the emergency after trying all day to keep my heart going. I was given a SECOND CHANCE, most are not. Why me? I have no fricking clue.

So please DO NOT presume you know what goes on in the alcoholic's/addict's mind.

Did what you post anger me? Yes, it is those types of assumptions that do the A's more harm than good.

J M H O based on 30+ years of continuous sobriety from alcohol and drugs and over 27+ years working on my own co-dependent issues.

Mightyqueen801

Love that phrase you used! Stay well.

Mightyqueen801

No, I understand and feel the same way. I "know" that addiction has nothing to do with the people they hurt because I've been told that, but it's not the way it feels.

Mightyqueen801

That is really interesting stuff (bolded). I find anything to do with the brain fascinating. Glad you've got those new pathways.

I had to kick someone to the curb over a year ago--an alcoholic who had at one time, during a period of 7 years of sobriety, been a very good friend to me. She started drinking again--you know, she could just have one drink when out to dinner--and over the next few years went to rehab five or six times and immediately began drinking every time she got out. She went to 7-a.m. AA meetings ripping drunk. It got to the point where she was so wet-brained I just couldn't bear to hear her senseless babble anymore or listen to her repeat the same questions and statements over and over again. I cut off all contact, and I figured her days are numbered and would rather just remember her as she was when she had those 7 years.

I assumed her brain damage is permanent, and while I doubt she will ever become sober again, you never do know. So, your information that some recovery of the brain function is possible is enlightening.

Tuffgirl

Interesting thread. Like TC says, I am trying my best to stop over-intellectualizing other people's behavior and just accept it for what it is. I know my STBX feels terrible guilt and shame...it gets projected all over me whenever I put myself in his vicinity. And having compassion has made it easier to deflect the blamestorming and not take what he says about me personally.

Mightyqueen801

I don't believe my ex-husband feels one lick of guilt or shame for what he did to me when we were married, nor will he ever. He is not exactly recovered, though--he gave up the coke and the pills, and he's managed to curb the drinking enough to hold a job for a number of years now--just gets trashed after work every day now instead of skipping the work part and going straight to the bar. Progress, I guess. As someone put it, he's still in the alternate reality.

We are fairly civil after all these years, and even had a lunch and a few drinks together when we took our daughter to the airport to go overseas to school recently. I still have occasional moments of anger because more than a decade later I have to deal with the financial effects of his damage during our marriage, and I'm not a young woman who has the years left to ever be able to recover financially, but I know I can't change the past and it is what it is. Still, I'll continue to allow myself to be pissed off now and again if I want to.