Looking into the abyss.
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Memphis, TN
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Looking into the abyss.
anvilhead posted this in another thread:
which is something I am dealing with right now.
My recovery is holding and I have the tools to turn around but what is the fascination that brings me, and from the number of posts here many others, to go look over the edge again and again?
I still get the feeling that with what I know know now maybe if I jumped in I'd be able to help her. Of course I know this won't work and I turn around. But why do I keep getting that feeling? I guess it is me just craving my drug of codieness.
You really have to be diligent with this. Otherwise its " that hole isn't that deep, I'm sure I could get her out this time".
I know, I know, step back from the addict.
Thanks for letting me share.
Your friend,
probably good if you step back from the edge before you fall in again!
My recovery is holding and I have the tools to turn around but what is the fascination that brings me, and from the number of posts here many others, to go look over the edge again and again?
I still get the feeling that with what I know know now maybe if I jumped in I'd be able to help her. Of course I know this won't work and I turn around. But why do I keep getting that feeling? I guess it is me just craving my drug of codieness.
You really have to be diligent with this. Otherwise its " that hole isn't that deep, I'm sure I could get her out this time".
I know, I know, step back from the addict.
Thanks for letting me share.
Your friend,
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 1,637
Wow. Mike. I get it. It's bizarre, isn't?
I catch myself (in thought only THANK GOD!!!) trying to rationalize/reason... that's MY denial speaking. It's profoundly strong. Recovering from it is going to take some time I think. I talked to my sponsor about it last week and she likened it to an alcoholic in recovery... that whole, "It's likely to take up to 1-2 years for true sobriety and clear thinking"... same for us. And really, that's 1-2 years of sustained sobriety without the slips.
Everytime I go back to my drug of choice (AH), I feed MY addiction/denial. When I dance the dance, and ignore reality... I allowed my denial to rule my decisions. It's so subtle too. I am getting better at sensing it now though (that's progress!!!). When I feel my head spin or my heart raise, if I detach from the situation, calm myself and observe... I soon realize that there were truths that I was ignoring/denying.
You're so right... I really do have to be extra diligent and protect MY recovery!!
Thanks for posting this topic!
Shannon
I catch myself (in thought only THANK GOD!!!) trying to rationalize/reason... that's MY denial speaking. It's profoundly strong. Recovering from it is going to take some time I think. I talked to my sponsor about it last week and she likened it to an alcoholic in recovery... that whole, "It's likely to take up to 1-2 years for true sobriety and clear thinking"... same for us. And really, that's 1-2 years of sustained sobriety without the slips.
Everytime I go back to my drug of choice (AH), I feed MY addiction/denial. When I dance the dance, and ignore reality... I allowed my denial to rule my decisions. It's so subtle too. I am getting better at sensing it now though (that's progress!!!). When I feel my head spin or my heart raise, if I detach from the situation, calm myself and observe... I soon realize that there were truths that I was ignoring/denying.
You're so right... I really do have to be extra diligent and protect MY recovery!!
Thanks for posting this topic!
Shannon
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 111
Mike
hang in there. I keep being lead to the edge by family members, who are new to dealing with my STBXAH (since he is now living with them)and dont understand why I dont want "updates" or to be involved. They keep trying to draw me in.
Eye on the prize Mike. You are not alone, we are out here rooting for you. Keep posting.
hang in there. I keep being lead to the edge by family members, who are new to dealing with my STBXAH (since he is now living with them)and dont understand why I dont want "updates" or to be involved. They keep trying to draw me in.
Eye on the prize Mike. You are not alone, we are out here rooting for you. Keep posting.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: California
Posts: 693
I can so relate to your post. Part of me is so clear about stepping back, disentangling, being compassionate and moving ahead with my life. Another part of me keeps creeping to the edge to peer into that abyss. I've lived camped out along this edge for so long that it's almost comforting.
Your post reminds me of a quote by Nietzsche:
"When you look into the abyss,
the abyss also looks into you."
I find Al-Anon, reading here on SR, and reading about alcoholism in general helps me get more and more clear about backing away from that edge.
Your post reminds me of a quote by Nietzsche:
"When you look into the abyss,
the abyss also looks into you."
I find Al-Anon, reading here on SR, and reading about alcoholism in general helps me get more and more clear about backing away from that edge.
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ashland Oregon
Posts: 256
Thanks for posting this! A friend and I were discussing the possible demise of his marriage, and he asked 'why do you keep going back?' Because I love him. And my going back is not trying to reconcile, make love, or be his girlfriend. I'm just trying to be his friend. And every time, I get burned.
Today, when I returned the car after signing the mortgage papers (yay!), he asked if I wanted to 'celebrate'. Heck, yes!!! But no, no I don't. It would be too confusing. He said he wouldn't ask me again. He said my leaving made no sense. We weren't angry or harsh; I thanked him for his invitation, and I took a big swig of brandy on my way out of the house.
And now I have a new boundary: stay out of mens bedrooms!!!! Any man's bedroom!
- Sylvie,
learning all the time.
Today, when I returned the car after signing the mortgage papers (yay!), he asked if I wanted to 'celebrate'. Heck, yes!!! But no, no I don't. It would be too confusing. He said he wouldn't ask me again. He said my leaving made no sense. We weren't angry or harsh; I thanked him for his invitation, and I took a big swig of brandy on my way out of the house.
And now I have a new boundary: stay out of mens bedrooms!!!! Any man's bedroom!
- Sylvie,
learning all the time.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 86
Mike,
You have been a real friend and inspiration to me since I arrived here at SR. The wisdom that you have shared with me has been very straightforward and powerful. It is often a reiteration of the lesson that we can have hope and love and compassion but not expectations. I am coming to learn the very delicate distinctions between these emotions as they tend to intertwine quite frequently.
That being said, it seems like the focus of recovery from the lessons that I am learning through SR and Al-anon is that we, those affected by alcoholics, are involved in a life long process that involves self-acceptance of our emotional state of mind. We are not powerless over our emotions, we have choices, but that does not always mean that we can immediately access our higher power or source of strength, or even that we choose to.
You understand the tools. You know how to use them. To me you are a source of wisdom and light into my own life right now. Still, as someone said to me, you don't always have to be diligent. We are human after all. Life will always have its ups and downs. And as you said to me: look back but do not stare (into the abyss).
That Nietzsche quote about the abyss staring into you-- us-- is a clever way of saying that our perspective shapes who we are. It is that intrinsically inseparable aspect of life where you look upon your RAW, struggling, in a shallow ditch and somehow that crisis manifests itself inside of you. This is perhaps the benefit of detachment to the soul, we no longer have to look upon the wreckage and see it in ourselves.
Still, sometimes we do. Sometimes we have to. My heart really goes out to you. I hope these words help, I just want to convey my sympathy and empathy. As someone said to me when I first got here: be kind to yourself.
Rorty
You have been a real friend and inspiration to me since I arrived here at SR. The wisdom that you have shared with me has been very straightforward and powerful. It is often a reiteration of the lesson that we can have hope and love and compassion but not expectations. I am coming to learn the very delicate distinctions between these emotions as they tend to intertwine quite frequently.
That being said, it seems like the focus of recovery from the lessons that I am learning through SR and Al-anon is that we, those affected by alcoholics, are involved in a life long process that involves self-acceptance of our emotional state of mind. We are not powerless over our emotions, we have choices, but that does not always mean that we can immediately access our higher power or source of strength, or even that we choose to.
You understand the tools. You know how to use them. To me you are a source of wisdom and light into my own life right now. Still, as someone said to me, you don't always have to be diligent. We are human after all. Life will always have its ups and downs. And as you said to me: look back but do not stare (into the abyss).
That Nietzsche quote about the abyss staring into you-- us-- is a clever way of saying that our perspective shapes who we are. It is that intrinsically inseparable aspect of life where you look upon your RAW, struggling, in a shallow ditch and somehow that crisis manifests itself inside of you. This is perhaps the benefit of detachment to the soul, we no longer have to look upon the wreckage and see it in ourselves.
Still, sometimes we do. Sometimes we have to. My heart really goes out to you. I hope these words help, I just want to convey my sympathy and empathy. As someone said to me when I first got here: be kind to yourself.
Rorty
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 1,118
Thanks, Mike, for posting. I needed to hear that. I'm on my last couple of days of our annual family vacation in VT, which is always a wonderful time, being with my kids and all, but so intense and sad at the same time at this point. I'm far too up close and personal with the effects of alcohol on the entire family.
Even though I'm entrenched physically up here on the mountain with not just AH but also my son who is most certainly alcoholic, and it's draining and I need a rest now, I feel a bit more peace than I have in prior years--a peace of knowing that it all is what it is. I have a little less fear today, a little less anger today, a little less despair, a little more acceptance. Not sure why, but I'm sure it has a lot to do with the tools I've learned, and the wisdom I carry around from y'all.
Hang in there, Mike--one baby step at a time.
Even though I'm entrenched physically up here on the mountain with not just AH but also my son who is most certainly alcoholic, and it's draining and I need a rest now, I feel a bit more peace than I have in prior years--a peace of knowing that it all is what it is. I have a little less fear today, a little less anger today, a little less despair, a little more acceptance. Not sure why, but I'm sure it has a lot to do with the tools I've learned, and the wisdom I carry around from y'all.
Hang in there, Mike--one baby step at a time.
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 4,719
I am going to play devil's advocate here and say that maybe its not as much being "co-dependent" as it is being human. I have come down with the kids back-to-school crud and both daughters are wanting to take care of me. Even my dog is following me around licking me at every opportunity.
I think its human nature to want to help others (and I am speaking generally here...I know it doesn't apply to everyone) and as social animals, we intrinsically understand the need to rely on others for survival. Add intimacy into the mix and you have a potential recipe for falling over that abyss.
Just my 'doped up on Robitussin and caffeine" thought of the day. I'm going back to bed now.
I think its human nature to want to help others (and I am speaking generally here...I know it doesn't apply to everyone) and as social animals, we intrinsically understand the need to rely on others for survival. Add intimacy into the mix and you have a potential recipe for falling over that abyss.
Just my 'doped up on Robitussin and caffeine" thought of the day. I'm going back to bed now.
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 2,884
School and daycare, flea markets for communicable diseases.
Hope you feel better TG.
I agree with most of what you wrote and I only disagree to with the degree. When a normie falls off the edge they end up in the bottom of a ditch. For a codie it's more like falling into the grand canyon. Not that you can't climb out, just takes a lot longer.
But damn, don't I have to go look every now and then. Don't worry I have my SR/Al-Anon safety harness on and the rope is secure.
Your healthy(both ways) friend,
Hope you feel better TG.
I agree with most of what you wrote and I only disagree to with the degree. When a normie falls off the edge they end up in the bottom of a ditch. For a codie it's more like falling into the grand canyon. Not that you can't climb out, just takes a lot longer.
But damn, don't I have to go look every now and then. Don't worry I have my SR/Al-Anon safety harness on and the rope is secure.
Your healthy(both ways) friend,
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 111
Not to turn this into a debate but it is interesting about the difference between a "normie" looking over the edge and a codie looking over - is it truly the grand canyon for a codie or do we just perceive it that way ("awfulize" it if you will)? I know I have a tendancy to make mountains out of molehills and to constantly think of the worse case in every scenario.
I am not trying to hijack your thread Mike but having a bad day myself and I have spent too long this morning projecting ahead into the future when I just need to live for today. Peace to all -
I am not trying to hijack your thread Mike but having a bad day myself and I have spent too long this morning projecting ahead into the future when I just need to live for today. Peace to all -
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Originally Posted by Leaping 
Not to turn this into a debate but it is interesting about the difference between a "normie" looking over the edge and a codie looking over - is it truly the grand canyon for a codie or do we just perceive it that way ("awfulize" it if you will)? I know I have a tendancy to make mountains out of molehills and to constantly think of the worse case in every scenario.
I am not trying to hijack your thread Mike but having a bad day myself and I have spent too long this morning projecting ahead into the future when I just need to live for today. Peace to all -
I am not trying to hijack your thread Mike but having a bad day myself and I have spent too long this morning projecting ahead into the future when I just need to live for today. Peace to all -
I really think there is a difference. A normie will make the attempt, fall into the ditch, deal with the A for a while and then say, screw this I'm out of here.
A codie will make the attempt, fall into the ditch and then make a life time commitment to save the A, grab a shovel, start digging and what wasn't the grand canyon now is. At that point the codie might throw down their shovel and start the long climb out, or they may not.
To me that's the difference.
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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Well said, Mike. Even makes sense to my cough rattled, cold medicine soaked brain.
That said, I catch myself regularly stepping up to the abyss. Nowdays, thanks to Al-Anon and SR, there's a big "WARNING" alarm that goes off. Sometimes not before I teeter, but definitely before I fall!
That said, I catch myself regularly stepping up to the abyss. Nowdays, thanks to Al-Anon and SR, there's a big "WARNING" alarm that goes off. Sometimes not before I teeter, but definitely before I fall!
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 86
I think its a combination of perspective and expectations. I know because sometimes I feel the same way about my ExRAGF.
Your RAW is in a "ditch." It is a ditch to you because, from your perspective, its not deep at all, to her it is; to her it may be infinite darkness. You apply an expectation in assuming that a "small" problem (the ditch) can easily be remedied by "any functioning human being." Well-- not for an A or RA. I am writing this for my benefit as well.
Sometimes my XRAGF was so wasted she couldn't feed her cat. The cat sits next to the dish which is next to the bag of food, mewling. The cat which she adopted to keep her company on these lonely nights. Its a simple matter of dipping the scoop into the bag and then emptying it into the bowl-- easy right?
Well, not for her. Her brain chemistry was changed because of her disease and now changing it back, recovery, is the process by which she will have to rejoin society and answer to her responsibilities.
Nowadays my expectations are so low that I expect her mainly just to wake up and go to sleep. I choose to preserve hope, positivity, and the good times inside of myself. It helps me carry the best of her without diving over the edge into her problems. Even on a really bad day (she had one yesterday) I can listen to her and then restore focus to myself where I know that I can feel positive and strong when I want to and when I need to.
Your RAW is in a "ditch." It is a ditch to you because, from your perspective, its not deep at all, to her it is; to her it may be infinite darkness. You apply an expectation in assuming that a "small" problem (the ditch) can easily be remedied by "any functioning human being." Well-- not for an A or RA. I am writing this for my benefit as well.
Sometimes my XRAGF was so wasted she couldn't feed her cat. The cat sits next to the dish which is next to the bag of food, mewling. The cat which she adopted to keep her company on these lonely nights. Its a simple matter of dipping the scoop into the bag and then emptying it into the bowl-- easy right?
Well, not for her. Her brain chemistry was changed because of her disease and now changing it back, recovery, is the process by which she will have to rejoin society and answer to her responsibilities.
Nowadays my expectations are so low that I expect her mainly just to wake up and go to sleep. I choose to preserve hope, positivity, and the good times inside of myself. It helps me carry the best of her without diving over the edge into her problems. Even on a really bad day (she had one yesterday) I can listen to her and then restore focus to myself where I know that I can feel positive and strong when I want to and when I need to.
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,052
Hey Mike,
Something that helps me when I'm in that state of mind I actually learned in a parenting class. I've found it works equally well for me with alcoholics and teenagers. It's an acronym called ACE. Don't give advice, don't criticize, and don't explain. When I combine that with my personal mantra, "Don't should on yourself, don't should on others, and don't let others should on you" I'm usually in a pretty good place. When I don't, I'm usually not.
Word.
Cyranoak
Something that helps me when I'm in that state of mind I actually learned in a parenting class. I've found it works equally well for me with alcoholics and teenagers. It's an acronym called ACE. Don't give advice, don't criticize, and don't explain. When I combine that with my personal mantra, "Don't should on yourself, don't should on others, and don't let others should on you" I'm usually in a pretty good place. When I don't, I'm usually not.
Word.
Cyranoak
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