ACT10Npack

Was reading an other topic on the SR forum and they were talking about celebrity rehab and Dr Drew just don't get the 12 step program. I've been to AA for a few months because of my arrest for a DUI. That was in 2010 and I have some experience with it. Could never get myself to do anything in the program because I was really depress at that time and drank every week even though I was court order not to drink. Weird that I never got caught for consuming alcohol but they don't test for alcohol but hard drugs which I don't lucky me. Got out of probation and 5 months later got arrested for my 2nd DUI. A month before I got arrest I decided I needed to cut back which I did but after my 2nd one I only drank 3 times this year which is pretty good. Last year I would be drunk 3 to 4 times a week more or less on the weekend. Now I'm taking my recovery head on and serious. I can't live my life drunk. I'm never happy when I get drunk and plus my binge drinking too.

I red about 30 percent of the Big Book. That was last year when I was in AA. Could not understand a lot of it to do with alcohol and recover plus the anti evolution/science just could not get pass but that's for an other day. To the 12 steps. I can understand some of the steps but the steps that are in bold below I could never understand the point of it and what it has to do with alcohol and recovery.

Please just talk about 12 steps that are bold and nothing else because I just don't want a flame over about if AA works or not. Thanks.



1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Taking5

I dont see anything anti-evolution or anti-science anywhere in the steps. Perhaps you can tell us what it is that you are struggling with.

ACT10Npack

dgillz was not talk about the steps to be anti-evolution or science. There were a few things in the book that was. But I'm talking about the steps that are in bold. What does that have to do with recovery and alcohol. That's the question I was talking about.

CarolD

Hmm...
I'm pleased you asked about the Steps...but it would take me hours to attempt to explain properly.
Instead....I suggest you check out this link...see if the Joe and Charlie Step Study is there

XA-Speakers - The lights are on!

Also the AA book 12 Steps and 12 traditions are useful to many when beginning their Steps.

Let's both continue to enjoy another sober day...

DoubtfulDebs

i think steps 2 and 3 mean 'i am not going to keep struggling with the debate "to drink right now, or not to drink?" each and every time i get a craving' which is also what avrt addresses from a totally different worldview in the use of 'i will never drink again' - ie they're both saying 'i won't decide on a case-by-case basis, affected by mood or craving, whether to drink' because this is an argument any addicted person will lose in 99.999% of cases.

so calling on a higher power/invoking an absolute 'never' is an over-riding action to remove the power of that impulse, and the illusion of it all being a choice that can go either way each time it comes up, which supports continuing to drink.

but that's possibly not what it means to people who have successfully worked those steps, and the rest, i'm as puzzled by as you.

Peter G

Well I'm on my way out the door, but I'll touch a bit on step 2 before I go, at least as it relates to me...

In step 1 we admit we are powerless over alcohol, so it only makes sense that there has to be another, benevolent and more powerful force of good that can restore us to sanity. Otherwise, there's no reason to continue with the steps or even more, to continue seeking to become sober. In other words, yes, perhaps it was under our own power that we came to be bottomed out alkies, but it was all due the superior power and force of alcohol addiction that steered us there, aka step 1. To use the same thought processes and alcoholic brain to try and drag us from the perils of addiction is therefor a fruitless journey, since alcohol will forever wield its' superior power and guide us straight back to the brink.

Noting that we've already admitted the bottle was a power greater than ourselves; without another, omnipotent power able to lift us from the binds and shackles of alcohol, we would be doomed to forever fall victim to the next bender or relapse.

Where it becomes contentious for some is when they liken the "power greater than themselves" to something outside themselves - an actual deity - aka Jesus, Allah, e.t.c... and that is not the God that the BB talks about IMO. A "power greater than ourselves" could be something as simple as faith and hope, your own conscience, a well of the spirit, universal quantum energy, a psychic change, e.t.c... When undertaking a new job or learning something completely from scratch, we must invest our own hope and faith in the knowledge that we can achieve our desired goal, even though at present we have no idea how it will occur. If we were to attempt a new process, say, learning drums for example, from within our existing skill set and power we could do everything mechanically required, from buying a great drum kit and great sticks to setting up a rehearsal room, but without the faith and hope that guides us through the process of learning and allows us the motivation to continue on the path, we'll forever sound like crap. It's only from faith and hope in the very learning process, in the teachings of people before us who mapped out the skill required, and in our own motivation [read faith] for the necessary improvement that we are able to progress and evolve and learn more, becoming consistently better drummers. IMO this is a good example of the "power greater than yourself", and why it's required is obvious to me.

Is that faith and hope in God? For some, sure. Is that faith and hope in the Universe? Sure, why not. Is that faith and hope in the inevitability of attaining a higher self? If that floats your boat, why not? But it is within that aspiration to a higher consciousness, an evolution of sorts, that leads us to our successes in life, not from any power we currently own.

For me, I call that power God, but only because I'm not comfortable with the term psychic change, and well of the spirit sounds a bit too new age for my liking. To me, there is the known, and the unknown, and it is within the unknown that we find all the good AND all the bad that can happen in our life. That unknown is certainly a power greater than ourselves, pure and simple. Plainly, we are not in control of the world around us. Sure we can gear our lives around statistical probabilities in order to allow less chance for bad things and more chance for good things, but in the end we cannot control when/where/why or what the world decides to throw at us on any given day. You only have to look at a few tsunamis and terror attacks to know this. As addicts we're not in control of our own intentions, and you can look at your last embarrassing or life threatening bender to realize that. Since that plays out as absolutely true for me, I must admit to such a higher power, and thus, that such a higher power can lift the chains of addiction from me if I tap into it humbly, without ego, and within a spirit of forgiveness, kindness, and consistent meditation.

Terminally Unique

I know you didn't ask about all the steps, but since others may benefit, there is the Tablemate, aka, "The Detroit Pamphlet."

THE TABLEMATE was an early A.A. set of beginners lessons entitled "Alcoholics Anonymous: An Interpretation of the Twelve Steps," put out in the form of a little pamphlet. It was (and still is) the most successful set of A.A. beginners lessons ever devised. It breaks the twelve steps down into four groups, which are studied over a period of four weeks:

Discussion No. 1. The Admission. Step No. 1.
Discussion No. 2. The Spiritual Phase. Steps 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 and 11.
Discussion No. 3. The Inventory and Restitution. Steps No. 4, 8, 9 and 10.
Discussion No. 4. The Active Work. Step No. 12.

TABLEMATE - The Detroit Pamphlet

There is also, of course "The Little Red Book: Twelve Steps of the Alcoholics Anonymous Program."

KathP

I'm by no means a religious person, but all I can tell you, at least about steps 2 & 3 as they relate to me, is that I could not control my drinking. Once I started taking recovery seriously, I've been able to stay sober. To me, just being able to live in the moment & not worry about drinking is proof that there is something, some power bigger than me. I don't have to call it God, and I don't.

DoubtfulDebs

would you say that the concept of recovery itself became your higher power? hope you don't mind the question, i'm trying to find out how different people see it, and a concept of myself with this stuff in the past is a big motivation for me to stick with avrt so i wondered if that's the same for you or anyone else in the same way?

KathP

No, I don't mind the question at all. It helped me to look at AA as a whole as a higher power, at least in the beginning. I went to meetings & listened to people's stories, and I thought for a long, looooong time about how they had managed to gain such lengths of sobriety (that was kind of amazing to me) -- and not all of them were religious, either. The steps that mention God are difficult for many people, including myself, but there is definitely something in those rooms -- maybe it's all the collective sobriety, who knows?

ADaisyifyoudo

I haven't engaged with AA myself but I do believe in the importance of the "believing in a power higher than oneself" step.

Alcohol addiction is a physiological state. I don't understand the science well, but basically, we've trained specific GABA receptors in our brains to expect and demand overstimulation. When they don't get that stimulation, they send essentially distress signals (cravings) that both body and mind want very badly to respond to.

These signals are very powerful, and painful, both physically and mentally, and those established neural pathways will do quite a bit to get us to stick to what "works." The human species has successfully evolved in part by having brains that allow us to adapt to our environment and establish new habits and patterns that stick - and not just depend on heredity. So in many ways it's good for us to have brains that, once a pattern is established, it's VERY hard to break. In many ways, it's not so good, when those patterns are maladaptive. This applies to eating habits, physical activity, drinking, relationships, you name it.

However, through a wide variety of both physical and mental approaches, we can break and change patterns, and the longer we go with new or different patterns, the easier it becomes. One model of changing behavior is just a purely physical one - just do whatever it is you want to establish as a pattern for 3 weeks. After 3 weeks the pattern starts to become habit and becomes much easier to follow. However, those pathways are always there, so be careful! Although the pathways aren't used anymore, they still exist. Thus, you can't "reset" your alcohol-related behaviors, even with years of abstinence.

Anyway, I've rambled a bit. If placing your faith in a traditional religious type of God is helpful in your breaking the cycle, fantastic. If you can think of it as just a higher power WITHIN YOURSELF (your true self who may have been covered up for years by your alcoholic self), that's good too (and is what I am working on). Or, you can think of it as being just a greater power (like a group of people, like here at SR) that works too. It's however YOU define it to work for you.

About 6 weeks ago, I wanted someone to define it for me (I thought that would be more helpful). I've since come to believe that I have to define it for myself, in a way that may wind up being wholly unique to me.

Good luck!

Pachystima

All of your highlighted points either mention God, a higher power or prayer. It appears to me that your sticking points have to do with religion, not with recovery. I am not a member of AA nor have I felt the need for an AA type of approach in my recovery from alcohol abuse. But, as an alcohol abuser and as an atheistic pantheist, I would adopt any measure that would help me achieve my objective of sustained sobriety. One does not need to be a theist to work the twelve-step program; all you need is a sincere desire to quit.

If AA is not comfortable for you, there are other programs that appear to work for many alcoholics.

Whatever you try, keep trying.

keithj

Actionpack,

So basically, it's all the Steps that have to do with a higher power that you can't see how they relate to recovery?

OK, try this. Can you stay stop drinking? Can you successfully stay stopped? Once I had used up a lot of the standard treatment/rehab/counselors/doctors/willpower/support groups methods, I started to become open to the idea that I didn't have the power to stay sober.

When the BB says, in Step 2, that lack of power was my dilemma, it kind of made some sense. I had to have some more power if I was going to survive this thing. All the other Steps are a tried and true method for tapping me in to some more power.

If those 'God steps' don't make any sense to you, it's might e because you aren't convinced that you need more power to conquer alcoholism. So it comes down to, is your assessment accurate? Have you been able to stop and stay stopped?

LexieCat

Does it really matter WHY the Steps are what they are? AA was based on the successful experience of the first 100 members. This is the basic process they followed (Bill W. did break some of the steps into component parts when he drafted the 12 Steps in the BB).

Now, AA has always said it doesn't have a corner on recovery from alcoholism. But I would venture to say that most people who achieve happy, long-term sobriety do something along the lines of what the 12 Steps prescribe, whether it is formal or not. They do some inner work, change their attitudes, aquire some humility, become less self-centered. They come to a kind of peace with themselves and the world.

You can do that stuff without following the 12 Steps to the letter, but the 12 Steps are a tried-and-true way of arriving at the psychic change (aka "spiritual awakening") that results in long-term recovery.

Threshold

I LOVE this discussion. When I was new to recovery I read the BB and came here and felt like there was no point in starting a 12 step program, because I already knew "it wasn't for me" because I had issues with some of the steps.

Many discussions here with 12 steppers here helped me work through my unwillingness to take a closer look or give the 12 steps a try. So I totally understand the mindset you are in.

Here is my first thought. If I opened a college level calculus book and began to read it, no way would I understand it. It's very likely that I would look at it and think there was no way I could EVER understand it and there was no point in me ever attempting to work on my goal of being an engineer, because I already knew that college level calculus made no sense to me.

Now, if I started at the beginning, studied high school algebra, trig, college algebra THEN took on the calculus, chances are pretty good that one day I'd crack open that calculus book and it would make a whole lot more sense than it does today.

Something I heard often in the beginning is "the steps are in order for a reason". That makes sense to me now. They also told me that I didn't have to understand the steps for them to work, I just needed to be willing to give them a try and take suggestions.

I have found this to be true so far. I "work" the steps, because they don't automatically make sense to me, I read on them, discuss them here and with other recovering addicts. Use workbooks and answer the questions in my journal. Look for places in my life where I see the principles apply etc, and I begin to understand them, see the sense of them working in my life.

I recently worked step two, a real stickler for me. For me the idea of there being a power greater than myself that could keep me clean was ok, I mean if nothing else the power of a 12 step program, I'd been clean by being a part and so had many others. I knew it could work. I didn't have to define the power, in fact we are encouraged to NOT overdefine the power, but to be open to the idea that our understanding of that power will evolve over time. So, I was able to move on, simply by accepting that there IS a power greater than myself that can keep me clean.

Step three has been another challenge, I JUST finished my formal work on it a couple days ago. (I say formal because in truth I work the steps continually in my daily life, but I finished my workbook and reading for the time being) A really big help there is paying close attention to the wording "made a decision" I don't have to have thrown myself totally in over my head to begin the step, I just have to be willing to let the door of trust crack open and give this turning thing over a try. So, I began in small ways to "turn things over" like being PO'd about some issues at work and found a lot more peace in my life. This encouraged me to turn a few more things over, and so far I like what is happening. There are areas where I am still hanging on to my own will on things. But I trust that in time I may grow to a point where I can let them go and let the principles of the program work in that area of my life as well. I really do focus on today when it comes to the turning over, if I think about just letting go of everything for the rest of my life to the great unknown, I'll panic and run screaming in the opposite direction. I did that a few months ago, after a year of sobriety, and relapsed in a big way. While I was working the program, I did not relapse, but when I picked up the reins and tried to control some areas of my life that were simply out of my league, I ended up crazy and desperate. I've gotten back to my program, and cannot begin to tell you how much better things are in just a few weeks clean.

At this point, because I've felt progress by applying the first three steps in my life, I am willing and hopeful enough to keep going on, even when things don't yet make sense from my present perspective. I trust that I will grow in understanding, and when I get there, I'll be ready to open myself to that which seems senseless to me now. I have learned that looking too far ahead just makes me stumble over the issues that are currently in front on me. I really need to keep looking at the part of the path I am now walking. Just like the rest of my life, I can't do anything about step 8 yet anyway. So I'll stick to 4 today.

I've been able to stay clean working the program, makes me hunger for all the other things it has to offer if I continue it's ways. Joy, freedom etc. I see it in the lives of other recovering addicts, and I believe it will work for me as well.

DoubtfulDebs

if that is the case, i don't know if this is a useful contribution but i'm a fairly religious person myself who has found that a secular/non-spiritual program is working absolute wonders for me, so don't let labels or popular conceptions of the religious/secular thing choose your program for you... i think they ultimately appeal to different personality types rather than our different thoughts and beliefs about the divine.

you have a full range to choose from in 2011 and i for one think that's great!

debs

Terminally Unique

AVRT is actually a moral solution, quite in line with traditional religious values. It is how traditional Christianity used to deal with addiction - by viewing primal urges as ego-alien, as coming from Satan himself. Trimpey does a good job of disguising this fact in the book that you read, to make it appeal to both believers and non-believers, but in his later writings this is made more explicit.

What Trimpey did is adopt the lizard-brain theory of addiction, and attribute those primal urges to the base brain/limbic system. His solution, however, is as old as the hills, and he did not invent it. In effect, he combined a biological theory of addiction with traditional morality, but he did not invent either, and he acknowledges this.

That said, both theists and atheists, unless they are sociopaths, have a moral conscience, so either can use AVRT successfully, and the question of whether morality comes from an external authority or from within is largely irrelevant to its application.

LosingmyMisery

I didn't understand the steps either. I argued about them with my sponsor and pondered how it was going to help me. I had issues, but did them because I had a bigger issue with my drinking problem. After doing them I no longer had any questions. Things made sense and I've been sober ever since. Many things in life don't make sense until you've experienced them. I guess it boils down to what you want in life and what you are willing to do to achieve it. That has been my experience.

Terminally Unique

Just to throw this out there, while many fans of RR and AVRT are atheist/secular, I would wager that if they were to read some of Jack Trimpey's other writings, where the moral dimension of AVRT is made explicit, that they would be shocked and might run for the hills.

Not unlike some react with regard to the 12-Steps. :-)

recoverywfaith

What step are you on? Do you have a sponsor to help you thru the steps in order...it might help you to understand better? What helped me is reading in the AA big book, the twelve and twelve, reading here about the steps, asking my sponser, listening to AA speaker tapes, twelve and twelve meetings, and as you are doing by asking here. I think it is a good sign you are asking questions as it shows your willingness to remain sober.