How do these roles get 'assigned?'

Old 06-20-2011, 08:52 PM
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How do these roles get 'assigned?'

Another just curious, because I'm not sure if it ultimately matters. But a real eye-opener for me was seeing the chart on family roles in the alcoholic family and seeing that the second child is so often made the scapegoat that it's even in the chart.

For the record, by the time I graduated from high school, I often 'joked' that if I were in church saying the Rosary and got raped, my mother would find some way to say it was my fault. (Pretty funny joke, huh? :-( ) Over the years, I have been falsely accused, and blamed for absolutely insane things. (I've mentioned in other threads my father blaming me for his marital problems and for making him look bad to the neighbors, ignoring the fact that he'd just been beating up my mother.)

But I'd like to know, why is it typically the second child who becomes the scapegoat? Why do the 1st, 3rd, and 4th typically fall into the roles they do? I keep searching lately for reasons. Was I more outspoken than my older sibling? Is it something about the traits of a second child? I have come to suspect I have at least a touch of ADHD--is that why I got blamed for so much, because I had a hard time sitting still in church???

And why in the world does it continue into my 40's?

To put this in perspective, I was an honor student, never smoked, never drank, never broke curfew, never had loud or rude or obnoxious friends, was active in school activities, talented, used my talent, etc. Today, I'm well-educated, well-spoken, have a good job, excel at it and am respected professionally, am raising kids that everyone else sees as good kids...yet somehow, my entire family is still letting me know how I'm upsetting them, and not quite up to snuff, to the point I finally walked away. Now they're mad I walked away!

It is so illogical! How does this happen? What are they thinking?
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Old 06-21-2011, 05:20 AM
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My mother, the A in my life was a middle child, older sister and younger brother. She has often said that her mother did not like her, she blames her mother for her issues.

I am the first born, and I have a younger brother, same mother different fathers. I bear the burden of my mothers abuse, her controlling ways. My brother is perfect, can do no wrong. Although I am the sucessful child, I am looked at as a servant. She has poured dollar after dollar into my brother (he is not an addict, works, but can never get anywhere) and never given me a dime, and, when she dies, he gets everything because he needs help and I don't. There were times in my life when I needed help, but there was none extended out to me.

I will never understand family dynamics, I do know that parents always have a favorite, they all deny it, but, watching their actions, it is easy to see whose on first.

In some cases, people have more children than they are equipted to handle, and some get lost in the shuffle.

I cannot please my mother, I have given up trying, she is a burden to me, one that I have to accept.
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Old 06-21-2011, 05:51 AM
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Everybody releases to the strongest, most stable personality. That is the surest way of 1) releasing some of that incredible nervous energy that is built up and 2) making sure that the system survives. They sure can't go off on the addict because who knows they could end up losing all the grocery money for the month.

Here's my take on the subject: Every group of people is a system. Every individual has to take on certain rules and responsibilities in order for the system to stay organized, efficient, and even survive. So every family (dysfunctional, not dysfunctional, and everything in between) has individuals in roles. But the more functional families allow for the individuals to move in and out of the roles. Such as, let's say the oldest child matures and becomes less hyperactive, less of the acting-out child then that leaves an imbalance in the system and, lo-and-behold, another child moves out of their role and into that hyperactive, acting-out child. Mind you, in the more functional family the intensity of these behaviors is very manageable by the parents. So at some point even the youngest, who is usually the class-clown type, is able at some point in their childhood to move out of that role into something else and the family does not shame them for that.

The more dysfunctional family systems use shaming techniques to keep the individuals in their roles. That's probably because the roles are so rigid that nobody else can move into the vacated role. That's a fear thing.

Mind you, all this is on a very deep level in the brain. Nobody is even aware this stuff is happening. I bet teachers see it all the time. You get a class full of kids on the first day of school and see how the kids play together. Then go back a month later and see the difference as everyone has "found" their role.

So that's my take on it. Take what you want and leave the rest.
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Old 06-21-2011, 06:13 AM
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You made me think. I am the oldest child, wife is youngest. Her middle child is a boy between two girls and we are not like what you describe but my son is, mine is a boy with an older brother and younger sister. He is the only one we never see. I miss him. We have talked and studied much about it but never came to an answer. I do know his mother made him a victim and he had a hard time growing up. I never got the chance to have the relationship with him I have with his siblings and I can't say why.
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Old 06-21-2011, 08:27 AM
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Interesting topic......

I tend to think that birth order role assignments are just a huge oversimplification. I am one of 2 daughters, second born. My sister is a very outgoing, "loud", strong-willed person. She is also a recovering addict/alcoholic. I am reserved, sometimes shy, typically very quiet. I did not do as well in school as my sister, but I typically respected authority and did not get into much trouble.

My parents are not alcoholics, but my mother is an untreated ACoA......

Hugs, HG
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Old 06-21-2011, 12:54 PM
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And on reading my post earlier today, there's another thing (it seems to me) that happens in the more functional systems - that individuals can take on different roles. Maybe for a time the one who is the class clown (usually the youngest) moves into the smart, responsible, angelic-role which then forces the one who is usually the angel to take on some other role or at least not be so angelic. The important thing is the fluidity of the thing. Nobody is locked into something forever. Everybody becomes a jack-of-all-trades in the family dynamics. Then adult maturity comes and there's another role....
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Old 06-21-2011, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by sojourner View Post
And on reading my post earlier today, there's another thing (it seems to me) that happens in the more functional systems - that individuals can take on different roles. Maybe for a time the one who is the class clown (usually the youngest) moves into the smart, responsible, angelic-role which then forces the one who is usually the angel to take on some other role or at least not be so angelic. The important thing is the fluidity of the thing. Nobody is locked into something forever. Everybody becomes a jack-of-all-trades in the family dynamics. Then adult maturity comes and there's another role....
Not sure if I'm rambling a little here, but this is my frustration. Taking the popular saying that people treat you how you teach them to, I told my family in the nicest possible way that this behavior had to stop (specifically that time, I was referring to my sister's two years of holiday rages aimed at me/my daughter.) First I was ignored. Then I was told by my father it was my fault and all my supposed flaws thrown in my face that 'force' people to treat me poorly (for the record, I have no trouble like this outside my family.)

When it became obvious from his attitude that she would be allowed to continue behaving like that (it was he who told me to sit down that Christmas and said nothing to her while she continued to rage and scream at me), I quit going to family gatherings. Then came her apology quickly followed by..."but you have to admit your part in it" followed by a list of my flaws as a human being and parent.

Now, they all simply ignore me at extended family gatherings.

So much for standing up for myself.

Oh, well, at least I'm not still going to family gatherings and being screamed at. My sister won't behave like that with extended family watching, because they're not in the loop and might actually be turned off by it.

Because they didn't witness it, she is no doubt describing it to them as she tried to pass it off even to me, who was the target of it: "I merely pointed out a few things."
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Old 06-21-2011, 03:35 PM
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I'm the scapegoat, always have been! My brother is the peace-maker of the family, and also the golden child, if you will. Ugh.
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Old 06-21-2011, 05:35 PM
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Hi there EveningRose, and what a wonderful topic you have brought up

In a _healthy_ family, like others have pointed out, "roles" are flexible. They are based on an individuals personality, the needs of the family at the time, and how the adults hand out responsibilities in a gradual and age-appropriate manner.

In a dysfunctional family the adults are only adult in age. They are still operating at some under-developed emotional stage. What "roles" get forced on the children depends on what the needs are of the particular dsyfunctional adult. There is a popular mythconception that roles are based on birth order, but that's not the way it happens in real life.

If the dysfunctional adult is physically irresponsible then the first child gets stuck with being the "over-responsible" or "hero". If the adult is emotionally isolated then the first child gets stuck with being the "golden" or "baby" of the system. As more children are added to the system they get to fill in whatever other roles the adult is unable to do on their own.

And as far as "people treat you as you teach them", that applies only to _people_. Dysfunctional adults are not "people", they are a weird hybrid of a physically old body with an emotionally stunted brain. They are closer to dogs than humans. With dysfunctional people you can not _teach_ them, you have to _train_ them, which is an entirely different concept.

Healthy people are aware of their surrounding and the impact they have on others. So you can teach them simply by communicating your own needs and responding to theirs. Dysfunctional people live in a fantasy of their own imagination and have no awareness of the existence of others. So you have to figure out their individual fantasy, their bizarre needs and you have to offer them some kind of "reward" for doing the right behavior.... over and over and over until they "get" it.

Just like a dog

Mike
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Old 06-21-2011, 05:57 PM
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Mike, you have made a good point. My mother being an alcoholic has always been irresponsible when it comes to family. My brother is 11 years younger than me. I basically raised him as my mother was always out partying and chasing men. So, I was the adult in the family, I really never had a childhood.

And today, my mother still has no awareness of others and their needs.

Sad, but true.
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Old 06-24-2011, 06:27 AM
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I too have often thought about this topic.

Over the years, I have played different roles in my family. I have mostly been the scapegoat, but there was a couple years in there were I felt like the family hero. It was nice for awhile, but during that time I felt like I was pulled into the dysfunction of my family of origin even more. My mother would always compare my sister, my brother, and me. She would never talk directly to any of us if she was upset about something. In my family, we would always hear things second hand. For example, "You really upset Mom when you did X." Didn't realize how crazy this actually was until I started therapy.

I have sort of come to my own conclusion that the "roles" in a dysfunctional family are sort of randomly assigned. It's like having a play where you need certain people to fulfill different needs. Rescuers needs a victims and families that are not able to truly addressing their own problems needs a scapegoat to blame everything on. It helped me to look at it this way. It doesn't feel as personal any longer.

I once read that the only way "out" of a dysfunctional family system is through the role of scapegoat. This definitely happened to me when I started therapy/recovery. I was getting healthier, but since I was changing the dynamic of the system, my family thought I was crazy, a trouble maker, selfish, ... the list goes on and on.

I just chose to disengage and they eventually lost interest in me. At least I think they did, they could still be talking about me behind my back, but there's absolutely nothing I can do about that :-)

Thanks for bringing up the topic and for letting me share.

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Old 06-24-2011, 06:48 AM
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My mother also thinks I am selfish, when I do not do everything that she wants, when she wants me to do it. I think that is her problem, not mine.

And dbh, I agree with your conclusion about roles being randomly assigned, actually I often feel like I am a bit player in a ongoing saga/soap opera, my mother is the star, I am an extra.

Thanks for your post!
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Old 06-24-2011, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by dollydo View Post
And dbh, I agree with your conclusion about roles being randomly assigned, actually I often feel like I am a bit player in a ongoing saga/soap opera, my mother is the star, I am an extra.

Thanks for your post!
That's EXACTLY how I feel too!

I have minimal contact with the members of my family of origin now. We still keep in touch, but I no longer have the daily/hourly contact that I use to have.

When they try to pull me back into the system, I think to myself that I'm no longer interested in being an actor in THAT play ;-)

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Old 06-24-2011, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Darklight View Post
ROFLMAO!!! -- I can totally relate!

I got blamed for every single problem that my family had. When my parents had a fight, that was my fault. When my mom was having issues with her boss, that was my fault. When my dad had to change jobs, that was my fault. On and on and on, a thousand times in a circle. -- Despite the fact that I never had any outstanding issues with behavior as a child and was, by all accounts, a 'model citizen'.
I, too, have been blamed for my parents' marriage problems. I've been blamed for my older sibling's rages (said sibling has gone into many such rages to many people over the years when I was nowhere near, but when they were aimed at me, I was blamed entirely for it.)

I have been held 100% responsible for issues between myself and my younger sibling. (There were things my mother and older sibling did that LARGELY contributed to those issues). If I stayed after school for activities or went up to my room and just kept my nose clean, then I was accused of 'not loving my family.' If I stayed in my room and the younger sister constantly pushed the door open over and over while I was trying to work, making noises and doing everything in her power to provoke, I was the problem if I finally reacted, in any way, shape, or form. "She's just a little girl. Why are you getting mad at a little girl?" If she misbehaved while I babysat, that was my fault. If I attempted to enforce any rules while I babysat, then I was accused of trying to be the parent!

In the wake of my father beating up my mother, *I* was taken along to family counseling and family counseling type movies at some church and informed that I was part of the problem!!

I was threatened routinely with being kicked out of the house to the point I finally packed up and left. As I said, I was an honor student, not some kid stealing my parents money and trashing their house with wild parties.

I was informed at the age of 40 (one of the final straws) that it's understandable if people scream and publicly humiliate me because I'm annoying and the rest of them aren't. (I pointed out that I don't scream at them.) Actually, I find it incredibly annoying to be told that two siblings want my pianos (as gifts) and to pay for space in a moving truck to haul them across country and then be told, sorry, we changed our minds. I find some of my older sibling's behavior incredibly annoying. But that's regarded as me being too critical....

I have been accused of not cleaning up after my children, despite my clear memories of doing so, and I'm completely baffled, except to think that perhaps my mother has the toys on her shelf in alphabetical order and that's what I failed to do. I really can't fathom where that one comes from, but they said I didn't and that's that, end of story, and I've been ordered to do better, regardless of my memories of scouring the place clean because I know what my mother is like. It's literally like being down the rabbit hole.

And so it goes.

I guess it's good to hear of it happening to other people. It makes me realize I'm not crazy.
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