A Perfect Example Of An Alcoholics Manipulation

Old 06-12-2011, 08:17 AM
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A Perfect Example Of An Alcoholics Manipulation

I haven't shared here in a long time. Things are going fine for me. I'm working on myself still, dealing with past issues, reading a lot and have lost 5 stone (70 pounds). Feeling good about having a future to look forward to.

I was cleaning out my inbox yesterday (a mammoth task) and came acrosss an email sent to me by my XRABF a few months before we spilt.
I reread it yesterday and was amazed and how searingly obvious the manipulation was, it was just jumping off the page. At the time it made my question myself but now it's just a perfect example of an alcoholics manipulation, deflection and projection. Thought it might help someone to see it.

This email was sent to me by my ex dry drunk boyfriend (18 months no drinking but no program and exactly the same behaviours and attitudes as when drunk) whilst we were still together. It came about after an argument one night. He asked me to go out for a meal with him and because I made excuses because I didn't want to go such as us not having the money to waste he went off his head at my "negativity". I actually didn't want to spend any time with him because he was horrible, moody, emotionally abusive, patronising, belittling etc. I left him to his rage and went to bed and when I got up, this little beauty was in my inbox.

Part of the problem with you is that you live your life through self-help books instead of tackling real life. Those books paint a black and white version of the truth and can be manipulated in to being whatever you want them to be. They are the martyrs bible. Seriously, you need to stop reading them because it's obviously not helping you. If you have to read a self-help book look for "The Power of Positive Thinking". The benefit of that book is that it doesn't look to explain or attempt to change other peoples behaviour but shows you a better way forward for yourself.

You really need to analyse yourself and endeavour to change the things that make you difficult to live with. You don't seem able to see what others see. You have this blame mentality that permeates your whole life with you as the victim at the centre of it. Everything bad happens to Tally but Tally doesn't cause the bad things that happen to her. Don't read up on me but instead read up on your own need to control, your temper, inability to compromise, and why you seek martyrdom instead of making your own life a happy one. If you address all those problems first before trying to tackle mine you'll probably discover that most of what you consider faults in me miraculously disappear or, on the other hand you might find out that we're just not suited.

What this so-called passive aggresive behaviour basically comes down to is me fighting fire with fire. Put in an even more base way it translates to "you be a c*** to me and i'll be one in return to you".

I look at some of my mates lives on facebook and the great relationship they have with their wives and girlfriends and I'm jealous. I see them doing normal things together and I want a part of that too. We have so many issues that need tackling, thats true but it doesn't mean that we can't do some small things together, like going out for a meal. It's something rather than nothing. You got the reaction you did earlier because your negativity is becoming overwhelming. I'm trying to make positive changes in my life by cutting out drinking, smoking, eating healthier and getting fit but there's one big obstacle in making a happy life and that's your lack of positivity. If I was to practice what I preach I would cut away that cancerous part but I actually just want it to be worked on.

Ditch the books and really take a look at yourself and I'll spend some time too working out how I can be a better person. Amazing things could happen
That's what manipulation looks like. xx
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Old 06-12-2011, 08:53 AM
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yeesh. Well rid, IMO.

good for you -
this is a wonderful illustration of the
'standing back and looking'
I try (but often fail)
to describe to folks.

BUt it also shows how different it is
to see it
when we've filled our lives
with something new -
like...ourselves!


and CONGRATULATIONS

70 pounds!!! WOWEE!!!! way to GO!

I'd rather lose 70 pounds
than win the lottery right now.... WOW!
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Old 06-12-2011, 09:00 AM
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If you address all those problems first before trying to tackle mine you'll probably discover that most of what you consider faults in me miraculously disappear or, on the other hand you might find out that we're just not suited.
This really stood out for me; I got the same response from my ABF. And he had a valid point; I had a serious rage issue that needed to be addressed. So I spent a year working on myself, and another year building up my financial resources and my boundaries without ever losing my temper. What I found is that his faults did NOT magically disappear, though they were less dramatic than I had thought. I did find out that there are some very important value differences that lead me to think that we're not suited anymore. Because I changed, and started to live according to MY values.

OTOH - that whole "you're THIS way, and I will analyze you in order to denigrate your character" is so quackquackquack. Real adults don't do this to each other. Real adults might say a brief statement of how they feel and what they plan to do, and that's it.

- Sylvie
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Old 06-12-2011, 09:13 AM
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Holy heck!! That must have been very reassuring to you, Tally!
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Old 06-12-2011, 09:52 AM
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Wow, thanks for sharing this. I also have a few of those kinds of emails. I have re-read them recently and realized just how far we both (me and the RAH) have come from being in that place where we were too busy trying to blame and change the other person that we couldn't see ourselves and our own contribution.

However, it is a slow process. Sloooow. I am glad I no longer have to live with him. That makes it so much easier!
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Old 06-12-2011, 12:48 PM
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Thanks for sharing, I am so glad that you are now enjoying your life!
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Old 06-12-2011, 12:58 PM
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Quack quackquackquack Q U A A A C K!
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:02 PM
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LOL Meredith1!!! That is priceless!

Tally, thank you for that blatant example of manipulation. I'm glad you see it for what it is. And congrats on the 70 lbs. I bet you look and feel great!!!!!!
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:12 PM
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I have to say, some things, for me, hit the nail right on the head. SOME things. I wish I had written myself a letter like this, a couple of years ago.

"You really need to analyse yourself and endeavour to change the things that make you difficult to live with."

I had become so irritable and unreasonable that I didn't even want to live with me. I needed to spend less time looking at my exabf's faults, and take a look at myself. I was so busy throwing stones at his house, I couldn't see the cracks in mine.

"You have this blame mentality that permeates your whole life with you as the victim at the centre of it. Everything bad happens to (Kitty) but (Kitty) doesn't cause the bad things that happen to her. Don't read up on me but instead read up on your own need to control, your temper, inability to compromise, and why you seek martyrdom instead of making your own life a happy one."

Describes me to a T, before recovery. Especially the martyrdom part. Man I was so bad, and it was always everyone else's fault. When I finally started Alanon, and the steps, realizing I was the cause of so much pain in my life was devastating at first. Learning how to not let others take advantage of me, learning how to stop being a victim (and then a martyr afterwards) was incredibly difficult at first. I wasn't the one with the problems, they were! Seeing that both my misery and happiness revolved around what someone else was/wasn't doing was my first wake up call into the world of codependancy, and my first step towards change. My ex gave me the book, "Beyond Codependancy" (melody beattie) and at first I was absolutely furious. how dare he tell me that I have problems. But I did have huge problems, bigger than his. Acknowledging my part in those problems was the first step towards getting better. Great book, by the way.

Yeah, the rest of it is bull****. I'm so happy to hear that you cut the cancer of him out of your life! Most of all, THANK YOU for posting about your ex being dry for months and months but still being the same &&& he was when he was drinking. I see that fact explained to people on here all the time, and many insist that once someone stops drinking they turn into mr fabulous. Thank you for sharing your experience.

And thank you for sharing your success in weight loss!!!! That is soo awesome, you are really doing a great job of taking care of yourself, in so many ways. I don't even know you, and your post just made my day. **
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Old 06-12-2011, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by MeredithD1 View Post

OMG! these are so CUTE...but they are so bad for me to get to know...they lie, they sneek, they cheat and yes they manilipute and give ulitimatums...they look so normal and so cute and caring on the outside DONT THEY?
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Old 06-12-2011, 02:25 PM
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PS...i got one of those letters too....but he actually admitted to me that he did not want to bring me down to his level, this was his disease to fight not mine....i guess he really knew how sick he really was...its been over a year and not a word...but often wonder how he is...but that is all.....
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Old 06-12-2011, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Tally View Post
I look at some of my mates lives on facebook and the great relationship they have with their wives and girlfriends and I'm jealous. I see them doing normal things together and I want a part of that too.
Interpretation: Every time I compare my inside to someone else's outside I find myself coming up short.
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Old 06-12-2011, 11:54 PM
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Thanks for the feedback.

He hated being analysed I guess. He hated me reading self help books and he hated me coming here too...I guess he didn't like me listening to any one but him so he could keep me brainwashed, that I really shouldn't mind having a drunken, selfish and abusive boyfriend.

I think I had about 10 self help books altogether. Only two really related to him, "Why Do They Do That" and "Getting Them Sober". The rest all related to me but he still thought "Codependant No More" was all about him...oh and this site was all about him too. The ego!

I agree I probably had become very negative at the time, only towards him mind. These "others" he mentioned...he just meant him because no one else thought that way about me and I wasn't negative around any one but him.

What I thought funny about it was that this all stemmed from me refusing to go for a meal with him, he said it wasn't "normal". We hadn't had sex for 5 years or shared a bed for 2 years but not having a meal together was abnormal. Go figure.

This guy didn't actually care WHY I was negative or unhappy...he just wanted me to cheer up to make his life easier. When I mentioned that to him and he didn't reply, it told me a lot.

My favourite part of the mail is "you focus on you and my faults will disappear". Such a cop out. Deflection or what. What he meant was you do allll the work on yourself, change the things about you that I don't like and I'll do nothing, same as always.

Gosh, I don't know how you guys living with active addiction do it. I could NEVER go back to that craziness.
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:54 AM
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Wow!!

Ah that's the thing, that some of what they say can be right, but its embedded with manipulation, lies and their own denial and ego. I mean if EVERYTHING was total BS it would be easier to disregard it as the ramblings of a madman. But no, the 20% that may be true or have some wisdom makes the other 80% look like maybe its true as well ...

Madness its all it is. Funny how mine also said my AA retreat was stupid and made fun of me when I was excited about it... I should have kicked him in the b***s right there.

I am also well-versed in identifying toxicity. The most recent one was an email from, who else, my DAD. Victimhood, martyrdom, manipulation, "look how much I do"... ah, the gift of clarity
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Old 06-13-2011, 08:24 AM
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Yeah I totally agree...that little bit of truth had me second guessing myself for a minute.

A lot of behaviour is cause and effect and I certainly wasn't negative or a martyr before I met him. That can be seen as blame or an excuse but for me it was a reason to explain the change in myself and a reason for me to want to change back.
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Old 06-13-2011, 08:27 AM
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LETS ALL CRY FOR THEM!!


complete A$$HOLES...oops "me bad!"
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Old 06-13-2011, 08:53 AM
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Tally,
My favourite part of the mail is "you focus on you and my faults will disappear". Such a cop out.
It wasn't a cop out it was a prediction. When you finally did focus on yourself his faults, as well as him did disappear.

Sometimes they see us better than we see ourselves.

My AW during her last binge and I think she was blacked out at the time, asked "Why are you leaving me?" It was like a punch in the stomach. I didn't know that deep down I had already decided to leave and when she said that it became crystal clear.
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Old 06-13-2011, 09:12 AM
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I may be totally off-base - so pardon me if I ramble. I have had similiar conversations and emails with my AH. I always hated them - and my reaction was to instantly shut down, go on the defense, and take his inventory right back (b/c that's what those emails are).

Nobody likes having their inventory taken. Not the alcoholics by their codie partners. Not the codies, but their alcoholic partners. Not the codies by their codie friends (Heck, look through my posting history - I know I started one not too long ago about having my inventory taken!!)

Anywho, in general, our natural instincts are to shut down and get defensive and not "hear" what is being said. Now, that's not to say that we should believe everything that comes out of an As mouth - but I don't think it's good to dismiss everything they say just because they are an alcoholic.

There is truth to our codie behaviors and tendency - it's scary how similiar our character flaws are, the traits that are developed/learned because we have lived with/dealt with an alcoholic. It is true that we can be quite negative personalities, who spend A LOT of time focusing on everyone else, instead of ourselves. Our lives become off balance and unhealthy...

and the last person we want to hear that from... is the person we blame for making us that way. That's right... I said, the person we BLAME for making us codie.

This is where I am at in my recovery... trying to get over my need to blame my AH, my need for him to make amends... to realize that I (like it or not) willing participated in this dysfunctional mess we call our marriage. I have behavioral traits that are not healthy, he has pointed those out - and as much as I wanted to scream, "But that's all your fault!!!" - I don't. I know I have to keep focusing on me, stay out of him and his stuff.

As I focus on me, and AH focuses (well, for the most part!) on himself... the tension has subsided... things are generally going okay... and with a calmer attitude... I'm starting to accept that we just aren't suited for each other.
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Old 06-13-2011, 10:31 AM
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I wouldn't necessarily dismiss any thing that came out of his mouth just because he was an A. I would be more inclined to dismiss them because he was using what he understood as my behaviour to deflect away from his own issues and put the onus onto me.

If he had of approached me calmly and said he had a few issues with me that he would like to talk about then I would have been all ears. But the email was the end of a rage that I didn't stick around to listen to because he couldn't control me or get his own way.

At the time I wasn't trying to change him or control him. The most I used to moan or nag about was the housework or the way he spoke to me and that wasn't so much moaning as me telling him not to speak to me at all if he couldn't speak to me civilly.

I was focused on myself and detaching quite nicely. The email came about because I didn't want to go out for a meal with him. That's all. He perceived my not wanting to go on a date with him as negativity on my part. I just didn't want to spend time with him.
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