JACKRUSSELLGIRL

I hear this alot and was wondering what everyone take on "Separating the man from the disease". I am still not sure what I believe it means. THey do such unacceptable things when drinking and it is had for me to separate the two.

Eight Ball

Here is something on this subject that I posted the other day on another thread.

The best thing that my therapist ever explained to me, is that we all have core values and morals. My therapist would visit prisoners who would excuse their behavior on alcohol. Lots of people drink alcohol but never hold up banks, steal, beat their wives or speak to their wives in an verbally abusive manner or tone. These things happen because of who they are in their core and stopping drinking isn't going to solve that. Not without a lot of therapy on their part.

That has helped me separate the person he is from the person he is when drinking. I dont like either one.

.

My own AH has verbally abused me on many occasions from very early on in our marriage. After 23Yrs of marriage and a year of therapy, I can now see that this was totally unacceptable behavior whether he was sober or drinking. My AH was verbally abusive to and occasionally bullied our DD - this was totally unacceptable behavior whether he is was sober or drinking.
My AH frittered away our joint savings money without my knowledge - this was totally unacceptable behavior whether he was sober or drinking.
I could go on. For me, i can now see that I have a problem with my AH core morals and values and also his drinking. A double whammy, but does help me separate the two.

I suppose it depends on what 'things' you are talking about.

If my AH had been a tee total for all for our entire marriage, then all of the 'things' that he did to me and our DD would not have been acceptable. I had allowed it to become acceptable because I didn't know any better - now I do.

forgotten1

agreed. im confused. you hear to separate... but then you also read:

"there's people that drink and don't [insert abusive alcoholic behavior]"... with this argument, if all alcoholics have the abusive alcoholic behavior coming out when they drink--does that mean all of them are "bad"? just abusers deep down?

and if so, then what the hell is the point of saying "separate the man from the disease"--obviously they would both lead to the conclusion that the A is a "bad, abusive" person; separating the man from the disease or not.

can anyone clarify?

forgotten1

o ok--so the point of separating the man from the disease is to just keep pointing out they suck? lol, i thought that whole phrase was to "give them the benefit of a doubt"... like he is still a good person inside type thing

outonalimb

Great answer Eight Ball! Loved it!!

I'm not sure what this phrase is supposed to mean but to me, it means the addiction can be seperated from the person. This type of thinking just feeds the flame of codependent behavior if you ask me.

For a long time, I thought the man I married still existed...that he was just 'trapped' underneath his addiction. I don't think this way anymore. I'm not sure if the man I married ever even existed in the first place or whether he was some figment of my imagination. Seriously...
I haven't seen him in years. Instead, I've dealt with this other person who has become more and more demanding, inconsiderate, paranoid, irresponsible, narcisistic, lazy and selfish.

I used to think if I hung around long enough, the man I thought I married would reappear. I finally gave up on that idea about 6 months ago. The man I married isn't coming back...if he ever existed at all. And even if he did come back by some miracle of miracles, I still dont' want anything to do with him.

Eight Ball

IMO I do think it comes down to core morals and values.

My dad (75) likes to drink everyday and has certainly got a lot worse over the years. He could be an alcoholic, my mum does ask him to cut down occasionally. To me though, he has always been a good dad and husband. He has never had any outbursts, been abusive, bullied, had DUI or caused any embarrassments.

He has worked hard all his life and has always supported both my mum and his family as he has very strong family values. He loves doing things for my mum and has looked after her enormously whilst she has been having treatment for cancer. They are celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary next year.

What I am trying to say is that we can more easily separate the man from the disease, if they are good men struggling with an illness. But some husbands have many more problems than alcohol causes. Take the alcohol away and they are still verbal abusers of woman as in my husbands case.

My AH has been a good husband for the majority of the time (or I wouldn't have been stuck for 23yrs) but he isn't going to change unfortunately as he doesn't recognise his own faults and/or is unwilling to do anything about that.

SoloMio

Well, it actually helps ME (not him) if I separate the man from the disease. If I make them one and the same, for some reason, I am much more reactive. I find it harder to detach, not easier. I think that's because he was sober for 5 years, and we actually had a pretty decent marriage. So I think when he's drinking and being nonsensical and arrogant, my knee-jerk, natural reaction is to try to reason with that person.

But if I can imagine him like a two headed being and it's the alcohol that is acting like a real jerk--for some reason I don't feel the same connection with that being. I can brush him off and think, as my great-aunt used to say: "Get thee behind me, Satan." Really, just the same difference as the girl vs. the demon in the Exorcist.

I do believe that over time that demon-head gets bigger and the core guy we marry gets smaller.

I don't think we separate the man from the disease so that we can slay the demon and save its prisoner. I think we do it because it's easier to stay detached from a being you have no relationship with.

That's the way I look at it anyway. If AH says, "You want to cut me off from my friends! I have NOTHING because of you!" (which was what he said verbatim to me yesterday), I can brush it off very easily if I simply imagine the monster head in place of his.

OTOH, if I believe that comment is coming from him, I wouldn't be able to stop myself from getting REALLY defensive and saying, "You idiot!!! You have a house and a family BECAUSE of me. You have a wonderful family and a whole world out there that YOU are blowing big time and if you don't see that you are a real [fill in the blank]."

But I truly believe that his addiction is spewing out that cr*p, which makes it easier to deal with on an emotional level. That's how I use separating the man from the disease to my advantage.

ukiah77

I have read "separate the man and the addiction" also. That's fine, I can do that to a certain degree, when AH is sober, he IS a completely different person. But to me, if I treat the "addiction" as an entity all it's own, it seems that the "man" is essentially off the hook for his bad behavior because afterall, it was just the alcohol talking, right? This is how my AH's parents feel about it, "Well, that was just the alcohol talking, he didn't mean it. "Oh, he just drank a little too much last night, but he's fine today..." His own family downplays his alcoholism and makes excuses for it. I know they love their son and they remember him as the vibrant and smart young man that they raised. Yes, a good man can be a horrible alcoholic, and it's hard for us to accept that reality. It's much easier to separate the man from the disease. Doing that allows me to still love him as my husband, and my in-laws to still love him as their son. But by no means does that excuse his actions and bad behavior while drunk. My question is, are we just giving them an easy out by "separating the man from the disease?"

SoloMio

No, I certainly don't see it that way. It makes me see that they need real treatment--not just an argument or a character assessment. If they are not willing to take responsibility for the disease, that means I can decide for myself to live with the two headed monster or run.

Alone22

Really like reading all of your thoughts on this one. I too have a hard time with it. I was thinking it had to do with our reaction when they are drinking and having that anger/upset feeling continue on during the times when they are not. In other words see the man without the disease when things are okay, and then understand when they are drinking that it is not the man but the disease you are talking to. Where I have a hard time separating it out is those two blend together . I do not see a clear line between drinking AH and just the AH. I can see the extremes but can't find where one starts and the other one stops. Going back to the two headed monster, I think my AH may have 3 heads. The completely irrational a$$, the non emotional reclusive bump on the couch and the kind and loving partner. However I think the 3 heads talk to each other so one can become the other without much warning..they kind of blend back and forth. As time moves on the illness is progressing and the good head is becoming smaller and smaller. In fact in the past 3-4 months that head is now just someone who will be polite and not make waves (the kind, loving side is gone, at least towards me).

Outonalimb you described my situation with AH to a tee. "I've dealt with this other person who has become more and more demanding, inconsiderate, paranoid, irresponsible, narcisistic, lazy and selfish."

Where I am at with it is all : "so what are you going to do about it"? What is my plan? As I pull my head further out of the sand with each passing week, month, year what is becoming clearer is things are not likely to change, My AH and our marriage is getting worse, our finances are getting worse, and my sanity is is losing out (thank God for Alanon and SR, only thing right now keeping me focused). I think I need to get my butt in gear and get back to work so that I can start thinking about a life without AH. I am going to enjoy this last summer with my kids and come fall my plan is to find a job. I will save whatever I can and if our marriage is not in a much better place this time next year, it is time to go. Hard to type it, hard to read it, hard to believe it, but I think my days of trying to make lighter of this issue are over.

lillamy

I've also thought of it like this: If he wasn't an alcoholic, but had a brain tumor, it would be horrible and awful and all that. And yet -- if he behaved in the way he has behaved to me, even if I knew it was caused by a big growth inside his skull, I would have chosen to remove myself and my children from the situation.

See quote in my signature re: unacceptable behavior.

LexieCat

AA makes it pretty darned clear that we are responsible for what we did while drinking, even if we wouldn't have done it otherwise. That's what amends are all about.

It did help me, when I was involved with alcoholics in my life, to separate the person from the disease. It didn't make what they did as a result of the drinking OK, but it did keep me from slipping over the edge into bitterness and hatred. Which, after all, damages ME, not the person for whom I'm feeling bitterness and hatred.

I was perfectly capable of saying that I could not and would not live with the insanity of the disease, while still wishing them well and hoping that someday they would be free of it and able to live the life they could have. I still care for the alcoholic husband I left over 12 years ago. I don't keep in touch with him, I don't mourn the loss anymore, I sincerely hope that he someday gets well. If he were to do that, and come to me with an amends, I would accept the amends, wish him well, and still never want to be involved with him again. Don't hate him, don't hold anything against him, but I am done with him.

Maybe I would feel differently if we'd had kids and I still had to deal with his alcoholism on an ongoing basis. I'd like to think, though, I would still do what I had to do to protect myself and my children without hating HIM for what he did as a result of the disease.

jamaicamecrazy

I am trying very hard to accept that this is a disease that he is choosing not to seek treatment for. He thinks it is who he is. He likes himself this way. Most of his family does not and is interacting with him at arm's length. He is okay with this and even encourages it because he does not want the responsibility and accountability that comes with real relationships.
I kind of have the opposite problem these days. When I've seen him lately or spoken to him, if he's been drinking he is kind and appreciative and compliments me. When he is sober he shows great anxiety at seeing me and always has to throw a dig in or bring up something from the past. I find myself liking the "drunk" him better and that is so wrong. It messes with my head. What kind of relationship is that? I wonder if he ever chooses sobriety would we ever be able to have a relationship? But I also know I do not want to be the wife of an alcoholic and all the anxiety that has produced in my life.

LexieCat

jamaica,

What you describe isn't so unusual. My second husband was a lot like that--he tended to be all comfy and cuddly and cozy when he was drinking. That's WHY alcoholics keep drinking--it's the only way they feel "normal". Of course, they are FAR from normal, but the point is, they FEEL normal when they are drinking. At the end of my own drinking, the only time I felt comfortable at ALL was when I was buzzed or drunk. When I wasn't drinking, I felt anxious and scared and sick and paranoid. Give me a few drinks and all that unpleasantness went away.

That's why it is so maddening. To non-alcoholics it looks like a simple decision. To an alcoholic, quitting drinking looks like unbearable, endless pain. Even when you know bad stuff happens when you drink, it feels like it is the only way to live.

LaPinturaBella

I definitely think separating the person from the disease is to help us in our recovery. Like lillamy said, if the person had cancer or something, we would know that a lot of the not so nice things being said by that person would be because of the pain and the fear. The A also has that same fear and emotional pain. Doesn't mean I buy into what they say. Doesn't mean I accept the horrible word and vile behavior. It's NOT an excuse by any means. However, it does allow me to feel compassion for the person and to understand why they act this way. It also allows me to discern if the horrible behavior is due to the core values.

For example, my ExABF was 2 1/2 years "recovered" when we met. However, I know now that his core values are rotten to, well, the core. He's a con artist through and through. By his own admission. OTOH, a good friend who died due to this disease, could say some stupid hurtful things while drunk, but he really was a very good person with solid core values.

So I have compassion that my friend was in a lot of emotional anguish and chose a foolish way to deal with it. I have compassion that ExABF is in so much pain he won't/can't look at himself and do the work required to be the person HE wants to be. And I was able to discern that he had to go...he's not someone I want in my life sober or drunk. And that compassion helps me not be so angry or judgmental.

SoloMio

I can relate to that, too. I think all my adult kids would like my AHs attitude to be consistently calibrated with about two-three drinks. To be honest, their discomfort around the "dry" guy really hinders my ability to explain to them that their dad needs to stop drinking entirely. They see him all mopey and disengaged when he's sober, and happy and fun just after he starts drinking... of course then it all goes south.

But when he was sober for 5 years, he wasn't a dry mopey/irritable guy. His moods were much better modulated, and he was responsible when he needed to be and fun when he wanted to be. So it all goes back to the disease.

jamaicamecrazy

LexieCat
Thanks for the insight. I remember hearing an AA speaker once say

Alcoholics do not have a problem drinking-they have a problem being sober.

I know that is so true for my H and that he self medicates.

I hope he decides to seek professional help before he loses all the people who love him .

erikm02

Never been a fan of calling alcoholism a disease, but that's just me

sandrawg

I'm with you. My exabf was a binge drinker from the first date. I have no clue who he really is, but I don't like him, regardless. I have a feeling even if he got sober, he'd be a giant JERK.

sandrawg

Maybe he will need to lose the people who love him, to get sober.