SoloMio

I just flew off the handle--but not in person, in email.

Here's the gist of an email my AH sent to my kids and me:

Excuse me--a "wee bit"? I just flew off the handle at that, as if he's doing me a favor, after me paying his loans, his car, our mortgage, utilities, etc. (OK, I know I'm enabling--I'm working on it.)

I got so mad, this is what I emailed back. He hasn't seen it yet. He's next door with his brother. I waited about 2 minutes to press "send" but then I pressed it.

I just couldn't help it. I wonder what he'll say? Give me a reality check--was I wrong to email him? JUST TODAY, I told him I need $1500 for his loans, so it's not like I'm not saying anything. I can't believe he just doesn't get it.

tjp613

Sorry, SoloMio....but he sounds like an IDIOT.

As you said perfectly, "A person who is a husband just takes his income, silently, and pays his bills!!"

What is UP with all that other bull****?

fourmaggie

sorry, i cant stop laughing at the WACKED of a MAN....

I think i can give you the GO! pass for today...(still laughing at it all..good reply)

wonders?..do you feel alittle bit better?...*shakes head*

Tuffgirl

His email:

Your response:

Such a difference in verbiage between what he wrote and what you countered with. He sounds like a teenager posting something on Facebook. You sound like his Mother (no offense intended)

sandrawg

Yar...I won't answer your question of whether you should've done that, but what was your goal? Was your goal to get more money from him? Or to twist the "I'm ticked that you're an alcoholic" knife a little deeper?

I only ask cuz I have done the same, many times. Sent MANY passive aggressive emails, or angry emails where the anger wasn't REALLY about what my exabf DID, but about MY resentment that he wouldn't stop drinking.

I would have recommended if your point was to get the money, there are better ways to handle it-such as talking to him calmly in person when you had a chance.

SoloMio

I've been a little embarrassed that I actually posted this thread, because in the rereading it's choppy, doesn't make a point, and is just like a rant thrown out there with no rhyme or reason except I just had to release the feelings of frustration.

Sandra, the reason I sent the email in response to his email was that just that day he had brought up the fact that he was thinking of giving $5-$10k to my son's best friend, and then he asked me what I thought about investing $9k in a very questionable, risky stock. When I gave him my opinion, he didn't like it and stormed out of the house yelling.

Later that day, though, after all this High Roller talk, I asked him for the money he needs to give me to pay his business loans and he told me he couldn't do it.

Then I read that email and I just lost it.

I DO talk about this money stuff to him. As I said, I'm trying hard to stop the enabling patterns and paying his debts has been one of them (BUT keep in mind the ONLY reason I pay his debts is my name/credit is attached to them. I DO NOT pay his debts like his DUI surcharge and medical bills). I started on a Dave Ramsey program to work on our debts, and since 2010 I've been trying to get him to understand that a) Couples work out budgets together and b) it's OK to relinquish a LITTLE control in the name of compromise (a concept he doesn't get--he either has to have ALL control, or he claims the right to sit and whine and complain) and c) it is VERY important to me that we get out of debt as quickly as possible, otherwise neither of us has a pretty future.

That HAS been said clearly, honestly, and forthrightly with no blaming many, many times. I've asked him to sit with me and create a household budget, and he just glazes over, and then tells me to do what I want and then complains to the point where I've just given up.

That's why I'm so frustrated. He has completely ignored my needs in this regard, acting always "what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine" even though he'll argue to the contrary. He thinks if he dumps a ton of cash on discretionary and imprudent spending, he's done his job. His goal in spending is to make himself look like Mr. Big--hence the ton of money to non-relatives, fancy outfits for me, etc. etc.

Anyway, again, I apologize for popping my cork in such an incoherent fashion. And I've been doing so well otherwise.

naive

your post has stuck with me for two days now and i've been considering your situation, solomio. i feel for you, having been in a similar financial situation where i was "trapped" because of my alcoholic's poor money management. i had to spend my money to keep us afloat whilst he merely drank his money and squandered it.

it appears to me that you are "trapped" due to this business loan that you cosigned for $80k, which is tied to the enquity in the house. he knows this and is counting on the fact that you will not risk the house.

you have every right to be angry that he discusses giving money to someone as a gift, when he is not fulfilling his obligations to his loan.

it appears that the house is holding you ransom.

is it worth sacrificing your freedom and being a financial prisoner to your AH just for a house?

additionally, the house is next to his brother's house. even if he did move out, he would probably just move next door, which i doubt would give you the distance you would require to get clear of his alcoholic antics and get on with your new peaceful, zen life.

at the end of the day, it's just a house. and if i understand correctly, it's a house with two mortgages and a business loan tied to it.

it would give you your freedom if you get clear of the house. then he would not be able to manipulate you into paying his loan.

you have a few options.

option 1. you could sell the house. i know you want to keep it, but it is keeping you his prisoner. to sell the house, you'd need his agreement and he's not a good business partner. why would he agree to this? you pay the mortgage, you pay his loans. it's not in his best interest to sell the house.

option 2. you could crash your credit.

stop paying the two mortgages. stop paying the business loan, cancel the home insurance. keep all of the money you would have paid for these things in your own bank account.

continue living in the house. it will take about one year for the foreclosure. save all this money. you will be able to buy yourself a little place in the name of one of your children. use this money as the downpayment.

option 3. tell your husband you are no longer going to pay the mortgage or the business loan and do it. there is a chance he will begin to pay them. let him. you've paid it for years, why shouldn't he shoulder that load now that he has a job. he also has an inheritence he could use.

he is playing you and counting on the fact that you won't risk the house. if it was me, i'd call his bluff and see where the cards fall.

naive

just thinking this through a little bit more.

i think i would take out all of the equity in the house, before i crashed my credit. obviously, you'll need his cosignature if he is on the deed to do this. i would imagine he'll sign, what alcoholic wouldn't agree to more cash and more debt?

give him his half of this equity, as that is fair. you could subtract out from his share what you have fronted him for his business loan. that is also fair. put all this money aside.

in this economy, i am not a fan of having money in a bank account. i don't keep any money in the bank, as i believe the banks might fail. plus, if you are crashing your credit, you don't want any assets anywhere that could be claimed.

naive

still thinking about your situation. you mentioned in a prior post that he has DUI debt, as well as medical debt that you are not paying; however, since you are still married, legally, you would still be responsible for these debts.

since he is still drinking, there is some liklihood that he will accrue additional debt, especially if he is talking about investing in risky stock and such.

independent of your feelings towards him, whatever they may be, he remains a financial liablity to you as long as you are married.

you can always divorce him and maintain some sort of relationship with him, whilst being wholly financially independent of him.

you mentioned prior that he received an inheritence of some money and also, the equity in the house next door, which house you personally put down the $40K deposit.

i'm thinking of how you can get this money back. my understanding is that inheritence post-marriage belongs to only the receiver, and not to the common estate.

can one of our legal members here on F&F help our understanding?

so, thinking about this, that money/equity is wholly his; however, if you crash the credit and liquidate any of your independent assests (stocks, bonds, 501k), it would seem to me that the bank might chase him and he might be backed into a situation that he has to front this inheritence money for your common debt.

i know all of this is bold but how much longer do you want to work to pay his way and his debt? and what if he accrues more debt?

SoloMio

Wow, naive, thanks so much for the time and thoughts you put into my situation! A reality check, indeed--so much appreciated.

First, after that email I DID get a check from him the next day for one of his business loans. I know it's a drop in the bucket and it doesn't mean the leopard's going to change his spots but it's better than nothing.

As for the solutions you presented, I've thought of a a couple of them. For instance, I've daydreamed about how great it would be to sell my house as well as my MIL's old house that's been unsellable during the recession and wipe the slate clean. If I did that, I'd have a small (very small) positive net worth, but at least NO DEBT. Then I could rent a little place where I had the beach cottage in March and start from scratch saving up for a small house that I would try, over the course of 5-6 years to pay cash for.

I've also considered the credit-crash plan. Since I'm now a Dave Ramsey devotee, credit isn't important to me--I don't plan on ever borrowing or cosigning money again (which means I wouldn't do the equity cash-out plan you suggested). But I don't know that's drastic, and it also goes against my feeling that I signed up for the debt which makes it my responsibility. Now, maybe he would step up to the plate, so the obligation would be fulfilled anyway, but I'd have to make that gamble and not sure I'm ready for it.

Or, I could go the divorce route, and let the courts figure it out.

I don't know--I'm working on how to tackle this one--and I'm committed to breaking the inertia of this cycle one way or the other, so I really appreciate your helping me think through it!

naive

for myself, i was so used to crumbs that when my alcoholic actually paid something, even if it was a drop in the bucket, i was delighted.

after some time on these boards, i realized that wasn't good enough. why should i be delighted when he does something that normal, functioning people do everyday to no applause. my perspective began to shift.

so, he gave you money for one of his loans.... what about the car, the other loans, his lease, the mortgage and utilities that you pay?

concerning your responsibility to the bank, i gave this some thought prior to proposing the solution above. i don't see a problem with defaulting, as they will get the house. that was the deal you made with the bank. you pay what you borrowed or they get the house. if you take the equity remaining, it is still a fair deal. the house as collateral on the loans/mortgages is not the bank doing you any favors. it's pure business and so is the decision to bail out.

anyway, take what you want and leave the rest. just brainstorming really.

hey, why not put this financial situation forward (including non-paying spouse) onto the dave ramsey board and see what his input is?

ONEinaMILLION

Hey solomio, I agree with Sandra... Don't waste energy fighting him back, you need to take things from who they are coming... Of course his email made no sense at all and was completely out of place, but what can you expect from him? By this point you probably know that expecting him to act as a mature human being is beyond reasonable. I'm sure you've already wasted enough energy in your life trying to make him see things the way they are, trying to "teach" him to grow up and act as a husband should, and you probably haven't gotten anywhere. So don't waste any more energy fighting him back. As my therapist told me once, you can't try to use reason with a person who is not reasonable...
Use that energy to get rid of the bad feelings you have inside and to move on... Don't let him get to you.