Opinions please.......be honest.
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 185
Opinions please.......be honest.
It is Mother's Day. Absolutely the worst Mother's Day I have ever had. Angry "R"AH woke up with that look in his eye. I never make coffee, but he yelled at me for not making it this morning. He then made some snide remark about me not doing his laundry. We went our separate ways (my choice) for a good portion of the day. I (and 3 of our 4 children) returned home. The one that was home with RAH was obviously upset with me and told me that I blame dad for everything. He then said he wants his Dad to go on his field trip with him instead of me.
Now, I am happy to hear that S9 wants his dad to go on the trip with him. He has alot of anger towards his father. Their relationship is far from ideal and I would love to see them get closer. However, why the anger towards me?? We have always been close. I don't think it is a coincidence that he was left alone with RAH and suddenly has these negative feelings towards me. It is obvious that RAH used his alone time with S9 to do a little brain washing.
So, when I asked S9 why he is angry with me, RAH butts in and says to S9 and D11, and I quote, "Do not cross your Mother. She will write you off forever."
I am VERY upset that he would say such a thing to our children. Why would he want to make them insecure about their relationship with their own mother? They are his his children, after all. Doesn't he want them to feel safe and happy? Does he really want them to think their Mother could just up and leave them? He knows that I would NEVER "write them off". He knows they are the most important thing to me and NOTHING comes before the happiness, health, and safety of my 4 children. So, I am viewing his words like this....It is more important and "fun" for him to put me down and try and make me feel bad (and in the process, make our children feel bad) than it is to have happy, secure children.
He is downplaying this and saying I am making a big deal out of nothing. He says the kids don't even know what he meant when he said it. I think they do...or they have a good idea....and if they don't, they will probably find out.
So, am I crazy??? Am I making a big deal out of nothing? Or was this statement completely inappropriate?
Now, I am happy to hear that S9 wants his dad to go on the trip with him. He has alot of anger towards his father. Their relationship is far from ideal and I would love to see them get closer. However, why the anger towards me?? We have always been close. I don't think it is a coincidence that he was left alone with RAH and suddenly has these negative feelings towards me. It is obvious that RAH used his alone time with S9 to do a little brain washing.
So, when I asked S9 why he is angry with me, RAH butts in and says to S9 and D11, and I quote, "Do not cross your Mother. She will write you off forever."
I am VERY upset that he would say such a thing to our children. Why would he want to make them insecure about their relationship with their own mother? They are his his children, after all. Doesn't he want them to feel safe and happy? Does he really want them to think their Mother could just up and leave them? He knows that I would NEVER "write them off". He knows they are the most important thing to me and NOTHING comes before the happiness, health, and safety of my 4 children. So, I am viewing his words like this....It is more important and "fun" for him to put me down and try and make me feel bad (and in the process, make our children feel bad) than it is to have happy, secure children.
He is downplaying this and saying I am making a big deal out of nothing. He says the kids don't even know what he meant when he said it. I think they do...or they have a good idea....and if they don't, they will probably find out.
So, am I crazy??? Am I making a big deal out of nothing? Or was this statement completely inappropriate?
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: carolina girl
Posts: 578
Of course the statement was inappropriate. You know it was. Try not to let the A convince you that YOU are the crazy one. That's the goal, to make you second guess and doubt yourself. That's how they win, how they get control. Stay strong, your gut feeling is correct here.
Of course he doesn't want you and your children to have a good relationship. He doesn't seem to care much for his OWN relationship with his kids, so why would he be concerned about their relationship with you? As far as he sees it, you are the enemy here, and he will continue to treat you as such. The more people (including the kids) that he can get on his side, the better.
Using your children's loyalty as leverage is seriously disturbing behavior, even for an A. Think about how it made you feel, and then imagine how confused your children are right now. It's devastating to ask a child to choose between parents... I've been there. My ASF and my mom would sit me and my sister down, and tell us things to say to my Dad while we were with him for the weekend. They would also teach us how to change the subject if he tried to talk to us about certain things. My Dad never said anything bad about either one of them, to the best of my knowledge. But I still remember the discomfort I experienced being manipulated by my parents before I would see my dad. Very vividly. I don't remember the words, but I remember the feelings.
I think the question I would ask is this: You are now aware of his manipulation of the children. It will continue, and probably get worse. What's your game plan?
Of course he doesn't want you and your children to have a good relationship. He doesn't seem to care much for his OWN relationship with his kids, so why would he be concerned about their relationship with you? As far as he sees it, you are the enemy here, and he will continue to treat you as such. The more people (including the kids) that he can get on his side, the better.
Using your children's loyalty as leverage is seriously disturbing behavior, even for an A. Think about how it made you feel, and then imagine how confused your children are right now. It's devastating to ask a child to choose between parents... I've been there. My ASF and my mom would sit me and my sister down, and tell us things to say to my Dad while we were with him for the weekend. They would also teach us how to change the subject if he tried to talk to us about certain things. My Dad never said anything bad about either one of them, to the best of my knowledge. But I still remember the discomfort I experienced being manipulated by my parents before I would see my dad. Very vividly. I don't remember the words, but I remember the feelings.
I think the question I would ask is this: You are now aware of his manipulation of the children. It will continue, and probably get worse. What's your game plan?
RIP Sweet Suki
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: In my sanctuary, my home
Posts: 39,868
No, you are not crazy and yes, the statement was completely inappropriate. Also inappropriate was the fact that he obviously bad-mouthed you to your son. This is something that should never happen, although I know it does. It's extremely difficult when one partner doesn't play fair.
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: wausau, wi
Posts: 28
patience...when first divorced I didn't realize what cease fighting anybody and anything meant. Neither behaved with kindliness and love. I would be embarrassed if members could see at times my words and actions in this time period. In action was new for me. Choosing to not be effected was different. Turning him over to hp was difficult. I talked with friends who supported me growing rather then fighting. I prayed little prayers often when negative thoughts would come. Sometimes not having a side was never an option before. I talk positive to my kids about him. I don't work at that level.
And with time this whole situation is better; not perfect but better.
And with time this whole situation is better; not perfect but better.
same planet...different world
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Butte, America
Posts: 10,946
It turns my stomach
to read about people using their children
as weapons
to beat up their exes
because they can't use their fists any more.
chimpanzees.
without a chimpanzees manners.
I don't have any advice
because I don't know how to do that kind of fighting.
On account of I'm not a coward.
Actions DO speak louder than words
just not always as quickly.
to read about people using their children
as weapons
to beat up their exes
because they can't use their fists any more.
chimpanzees.
without a chimpanzees manners.
I don't have any advice
because I don't know how to do that kind of fighting.
On account of I'm not a coward.
Actions DO speak louder than words
just not always as quickly.
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: California
Posts: 383
1) It was incontrovertibly inappropriate to say that to your kids.
2) Of course he said it on purpose. He's trying to hurt you my turning the kids against you and he needs his children's "validation" that he's a good father by getting them to side with him.
3) Both #1 and #2 are truly SICK and TWISTED thinking.
4) "Doesn't he want them to feel safe and happy?" -- You are making the mistake of thinking that he thinks and feels like a healthy person. No. He doesn't really care or even think about that. He only cares about how he feels and getting his booze. Addicts ho have not had a SPIRITUAL awakening are simply incapable of really loving or caring about anyone...including their own kids.
This behavior just S***S as bad as it possibly can get. I'm sorry you have to deal with this.
2) Of course he said it on purpose. He's trying to hurt you my turning the kids against you and he needs his children's "validation" that he's a good father by getting them to side with him.
3) Both #1 and #2 are truly SICK and TWISTED thinking.
4) "Doesn't he want them to feel safe and happy?" -- You are making the mistake of thinking that he thinks and feels like a healthy person. No. He doesn't really care or even think about that. He only cares about how he feels and getting his booze. Addicts ho have not had a SPIRITUAL awakening are simply incapable of really loving or caring about anyone...including their own kids.
This behavior just S***S as bad as it possibly can get. I'm sorry you have to deal with this.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 185
Thank you so much to those of you who have responded. I don't know why I doubt myself about these things sometimes. He is so good at making me think I am overreacting or just plain crazy.
The day has just continued on it's downward spiral. RAH has a new job. He took a huge pay cut but he thinks this will definitely make him happy.....yeah....sure. Anyway, he goes on to say that now that he has a new job and more steady hours (in other words, less hours) he will be able to take care of the kids 50/50. He can finally be the supportive parent that they don't have right now. Huh???? He will be able to take over the parental responsibilities since I clearly can't handle the kids. Huh??? He has been unemployed for months at a time and has never had any interest or desire to help care for these 4 children. He will help out, sometimes. He can be a great help, sometimes. But, it is always on his terms. If he feels like it, he will entertain them for an hour or so once or twice a week. Once in a blue moon he will entertain them for an entire afternoon. But it is only when he decides. I could have 2 weeks worth of work piled up on my desk, and 95% of the time, he couldn't give s SH*T less.
I am finding that my biggest fault these days is that I try to reason with him. For example:
RAH: It is clear that I am going to have to start taking over for you with the kids. You can't handle them. You never have been able to.
ME: If you feel I can't handle them, why do you leave them alone with me all of the time?
RAH: I don't have a choice. Someone has to make a living around here!
ME: Why do you leave them alone with me to go on 4 day fishing trips, to go golfing, to visit your friends, etc.
RAH: A man's gotta have a life!
ME: But, isn't your kids' safety/well-being more important to you than your fun?
RAH: Why are you such a negative person? Do you ever have anything good to say?
In a nutshell, he knows the best way to hurt me is through my children. What better way to hurt me than to say I am an unfit parent? I don't feel comfortable leaving the kids alone with him. But, the difference between us is that I don't leave them with him EVER for any extended period of time. I have grandma watch them if I need to go somewhere and try to almost always be present when they are with RAH. He, on the other hand, repeatedly says what a terrible mother I am but has no qualms leaving them in my care all of the time. Just for the record, I am an excellent mother. I am a self-employed, stay at home mom. I don't drink, smoke, hang out in bars. I give my kids hugs and kisses everyday. I read to my children. We swim, we jump on the trampoline, we go for walks, we go to parks, we hunt for agates, we pick berries, we have bonfires, etc. I treasure all of the time I have with my children and I am feeling very sad and sorry for myself tonight because my RAH went out of his way today to make sure that my Mother's Day was miserable. If only he would put that much effort into being a nice guy.....
The day has just continued on it's downward spiral. RAH has a new job. He took a huge pay cut but he thinks this will definitely make him happy.....yeah....sure. Anyway, he goes on to say that now that he has a new job and more steady hours (in other words, less hours) he will be able to take care of the kids 50/50. He can finally be the supportive parent that they don't have right now. Huh???? He will be able to take over the parental responsibilities since I clearly can't handle the kids. Huh??? He has been unemployed for months at a time and has never had any interest or desire to help care for these 4 children. He will help out, sometimes. He can be a great help, sometimes. But, it is always on his terms. If he feels like it, he will entertain them for an hour or so once or twice a week. Once in a blue moon he will entertain them for an entire afternoon. But it is only when he decides. I could have 2 weeks worth of work piled up on my desk, and 95% of the time, he couldn't give s SH*T less.
I am finding that my biggest fault these days is that I try to reason with him. For example:
RAH: It is clear that I am going to have to start taking over for you with the kids. You can't handle them. You never have been able to.
ME: If you feel I can't handle them, why do you leave them alone with me all of the time?
RAH: I don't have a choice. Someone has to make a living around here!
ME: Why do you leave them alone with me to go on 4 day fishing trips, to go golfing, to visit your friends, etc.
RAH: A man's gotta have a life!
ME: But, isn't your kids' safety/well-being more important to you than your fun?
RAH: Why are you such a negative person? Do you ever have anything good to say?
In a nutshell, he knows the best way to hurt me is through my children. What better way to hurt me than to say I am an unfit parent? I don't feel comfortable leaving the kids alone with him. But, the difference between us is that I don't leave them with him EVER for any extended period of time. I have grandma watch them if I need to go somewhere and try to almost always be present when they are with RAH. He, on the other hand, repeatedly says what a terrible mother I am but has no qualms leaving them in my care all of the time. Just for the record, I am an excellent mother. I am a self-employed, stay at home mom. I don't drink, smoke, hang out in bars. I give my kids hugs and kisses everyday. I read to my children. We swim, we jump on the trampoline, we go for walks, we go to parks, we hunt for agates, we pick berries, we have bonfires, etc. I treasure all of the time I have with my children and I am feeling very sad and sorry for myself tonight because my RAH went out of his way today to make sure that my Mother's Day was miserable. If only he would put that much effort into being a nice guy.....
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
If only doesn't exist.... what exists is the reality today.
So what are you planning for Mother's Day 2012. Are you going to let him ruin that one, too?
PS How low of him to do...what he does. Might you be under the fantasy that you can cure him? and/or that he will change?
So what are you planning for Mother's Day 2012. Are you going to let him ruin that one, too?
PS How low of him to do...what he does. Might you be under the fantasy that you can cure him? and/or that he will change?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 185
My therapist asks me why I stay. For some reason I keep thinking he has to come to his senses. For some reason, I feel he will get better. How can any sane and rational person behave this way? Answer: he is not sane or rational. Therefore he will continue to behave in this crazy, ridiculous way.
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sweden
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Well, I'm a recovering alcoholic married to a non-alcoholic normie. My normie sounds just like your RAH. He never involved himself with the kids and has been an incredibly passive parent for their entire childhood and now early adulthood. But...his reasons for being that way are related to non-addiction issues that are at least easier to understand. And he was passive and uninvolved for non-selfish reasons...probably based on his limitations, his childhood, his fears, etc. Not excessive use of a mood altering drug or liquid because he felt sorry for himself.
A LOT of normie men behave the way your RAH behaves. I have come to accept and understand why my husband acted that way and still acts that way, but, it's fixable because despite all the isolating and fleeing he has done, it has not been done because he wanted to escape from life, nor because he didn't love us. Sometimes I think he just didn't/doesn't know how to be a dad.
BUT...manipulating your children against you? No...that is inexcusable. And, when you say he is recovering, what do you mean?
When I woke up angry as HXXL and sober, I realized I was a dry drunk, (eventually).
I had so much learning to do, to let go of the anger, to respect the people around me, to stop trying to control, to realize that we are supposed to be enjoying life, not trudging along saying oh poor me.
Sounds like he is "thinking" he is in recovery, but probably not. Conspiring with your children against you is a red flag that he is not really healing and growing in recovery.
A LOT of normie men behave the way your RAH behaves. I have come to accept and understand why my husband acted that way and still acts that way, but, it's fixable because despite all the isolating and fleeing he has done, it has not been done because he wanted to escape from life, nor because he didn't love us. Sometimes I think he just didn't/doesn't know how to be a dad.
BUT...manipulating your children against you? No...that is inexcusable. And, when you say he is recovering, what do you mean?
When I woke up angry as HXXL and sober, I realized I was a dry drunk, (eventually).
I had so much learning to do, to let go of the anger, to respect the people around me, to stop trying to control, to realize that we are supposed to be enjoying life, not trudging along saying oh poor me.
Sounds like he is "thinking" he is in recovery, but probably not. Conspiring with your children against you is a red flag that he is not really healing and growing in recovery.
A jug fills drop by drop
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
I stayed because I was afraid of being alone.
I also stayed because I was afraid of happiness, joy, peace.
I didn't know them.
I knew: depression, longing, resentment, confusion, tension, feeling "not enough"
And what a better way of feeling like that that going out with addicts and otherwise sick people?
I also stayed because I was afraid of happiness, joy, peace.
I didn't know them.
I knew: depression, longing, resentment, confusion, tension, feeling "not enough"
And what a better way of feeling like that that going out with addicts and otherwise sick people?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 185
Littlefish....alot of times I refer to him as "R"AH, because the recovery part is in question. He has not drank for a year and a half. His probation required no alcohol, AA meetings, anger management and counseling. His probation period is over. He is not drinking, but the other parts of his recovery are no longer being addressed. He was much better when attending meetings and going to counseling. He hasn't done any of that for about 6 months and he has really gone downhill. He is very angry, always feeling sorry for himself, never happy with anything, and blames me for every thing that he feels is wrong with his life (which is everything). Being in his presence is truly exhausting. He drains everything out of me. I have to think about every little step I take, every word I speak, every action I make. He says that he is not drinking, so what is the problem? Why go to meetings or counseling if he has kicked that drinking problem? I feel that he drank to cover up the bad feelings he was always having. I feel that the drinking was a symptom of a much deeper issue and that issue is still there, screaming at me constantly but RAH can't see it. How can he not see how angry he is all of the time for no reason???
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: In a good place
Posts: 4,482
Originally Posted by sillysquirrel 
Doesn't he want them to feel safe and happy? Does he really want them to think their Mother could just up and leave them?
Do you want them to feel safe and happy?
Do you really want them to think you'd just up and leave them?
What are you going to do about it?
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 185
Originally Posted by anvilhead
what if.........you take your focus OFF of him?
then what?
then what?
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London area
Posts: 98
sillysq - I am a recovering A with three daughters. I would never ever, ever, ever (you get the picture) use my girls to score points against my husband. But I suspect the difference is that I respect and love my husband and am so grateful for the love and support he has given me through my recovery. Without him I would not be five months sober.
And if that is the difference SS - I don't need to tell you what to do. Your kids may not know exactly what he was saying but they will in time. Do not let him damage your relationship with your lovely kids. It is easy to say I suppose - but I feel certain that if my husband did anything to sabotage my relationship with my daughters we would not stay together.
I so feel for you. Stay strong.
And if that is the difference SS - I don't need to tell you what to do. Your kids may not know exactly what he was saying but they will in time. Do not let him damage your relationship with your lovely kids. It is easy to say I suppose - but I feel certain that if my husband did anything to sabotage my relationship with my daughters we would not stay together.
I so feel for you. Stay strong.
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
It’s your responsibility to them to break the cycle before it becomes deeply ingrained.
I'm saying this because as important as it is to know that you are not powerless and that you do have options, you also have to remember and realize that there are limits to what you have control over.
You have no control over his drinking and outbursts and behavior.
You also have no control over what a court will ultimately decide in a custody situation.
But you do have control over what you do and how you act. And after that, you just have to let it go.
Just wanted to somewhat adjust the sense I got from Cynicalone's post that it is all on Squirrel's shoulders. Because feeling like it is all on your shoulders very easily becomes petrifying more than action-inspiring.
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 20,458
"He is very angry, always feeling sorry for himself, never happy with anything, and blames me for every thing that he feels is wrong with his life (which is everything). Being in his presence is truly exhausting. He drains everything out of me. I have to think about every little step I take, every word I speak, every action I make"...(snipped for space).
Sillysquirrel, this is no way to live....how long could it be before his inner anger escalates?. Life is too short to be beaten down like this mentally and verbally....do you want your children to feel exhausted and anxious because of this selfish fluckhead? I hope you can escape this type of existence (and drain him a little, start with him paying you adequate child support instead of golf games).
Sillysquirrel, this is no way to live....how long could it be before his inner anger escalates?. Life is too short to be beaten down like this mentally and verbally....do you want your children to feel exhausted and anxious because of this selfish fluckhead? I hope you can escape this type of existence (and drain him a little, start with him paying you adequate child support instead of golf games).
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Join Date: Mar 2011
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SS I really like the advise given. It is really sad to hear that your RAH is not in recovery at all and is just a mean SOB. The effect it is having on you is horrible and I urge you to think about the long term affects of this stress. There is a good chance that unless you find away to be a happier, calmer person your health will decline. Your children need you. Please don't let his anger take anything more from you or them.
I am in a situation much like yours (only my AH is an AH with no R and he is not as grumpy and mean as often as yours). At first thinking about leaving him was overwhelming for me. I have not worked in 11 years, and all the change for our family just would be crazy hard. However as I focus on me (via therapist, Alanon, and reading) I am becoming calmer and I have been able to slowly think about how I would get back to work, who would watch my kids and where I would live, if my AH continues on this same path of self destruction. I have told myself that I will give it one year and if things are not dramatically better then it is time for this huge change. I have to admit it scares the crap out of me at times, but slowly I am getting stronger and I do feel if the times comes that I need to leave this marriage I will be ready.
You don't have to make any changes today, but you may want to do as I am and start thinking about what you would do if you did leave. We both deserve a better, calmer, happier life and so do our kids.
I am in a situation much like yours (only my AH is an AH with no R and he is not as grumpy and mean as often as yours). At first thinking about leaving him was overwhelming for me. I have not worked in 11 years, and all the change for our family just would be crazy hard. However as I focus on me (via therapist, Alanon, and reading) I am becoming calmer and I have been able to slowly think about how I would get back to work, who would watch my kids and where I would live, if my AH continues on this same path of self destruction. I have told myself that I will give it one year and if things are not dramatically better then it is time for this huge change. I have to admit it scares the crap out of me at times, but slowly I am getting stronger and I do feel if the times comes that I need to leave this marriage I will be ready.
You don't have to make any changes today, but you may want to do as I am and start thinking about what you would do if you did leave. We both deserve a better, calmer, happier life and so do our kids.
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