Seeing things through our own filters...
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
Seeing things through our own filters...
Having been accused of “reading between the lines” and “not taking things at face value” last night got me thinking. Yeah, I do that. We all do.
After being on this board for five+ years, I’ve seen a lot of people come here in pain. Some choose to stay in pain, some find a way through it, and some just stop posting. In all my time here, I can count on one hand the number of people who have been downright mean or malicious, although many times I’ve seen people accused of such, including myself.
So, I wanted to post some of the things that I’ve seen “misread” over the years.
If I say “why do you allow such behavior in your life?” it’s not code for “why haven’t you left yet?” It’s a question that actually needs to be answered. Not publicly, for me, but internally. Leaving does not fix things. It can sometimes create space to answer this question and other questions that need to be answered, but leaving in and of itself isn’t a solution.
If I say “you haven’t let go yet and you will feel relief when you do,” it’s not code for “you must be an idiot, or you would be farther along by now.” It’s an honest observation based on my experience in recovery. These are just a couple of examples that come to mind. Feel free to add more.
And speaking of letting go—I find the three A’s to be one of the truest and most useful Alanon tools. Awareness-->Acceptance-->Action. These are progressive steps that must happen in the order presented to be effective. I’ve, seen over the years, many people (myself included) attempt to go straight from Awareness to Action. Why? Because Acceptance is IMO the most difficult part of recovery. Letting go is hard, painful, and goes against everything we feel and believe. Leaving or staying doesn’t matter. That is action. Trying to take action before acceptance rarely works out for the best. I know this because I did it.
I always have and will continue to speak the truth as I see it, through my own filters of a 20-year marriage to an alcoholic, and my continuing and ongoing recovery. I do not have any malicious intent. I realize I cannot make anyone see anything. But, I can point the way, having been there once. It doesn’t matter to me if you like the way I point. It’s your life. Where you are at in your recovery is where you are at. Personally, I’m grateful for those who are further down the road. They shine a light for me to see what’s ahead, even if I’m not ready to go there yet.
BTW, I love when someone posts something that gets me thinking. So, thanks WTBH. You made me think.
L
After being on this board for five+ years, I’ve seen a lot of people come here in pain. Some choose to stay in pain, some find a way through it, and some just stop posting. In all my time here, I can count on one hand the number of people who have been downright mean or malicious, although many times I’ve seen people accused of such, including myself.
So, I wanted to post some of the things that I’ve seen “misread” over the years.
If I say “why do you allow such behavior in your life?” it’s not code for “why haven’t you left yet?” It’s a question that actually needs to be answered. Not publicly, for me, but internally. Leaving does not fix things. It can sometimes create space to answer this question and other questions that need to be answered, but leaving in and of itself isn’t a solution.
If I say “you haven’t let go yet and you will feel relief when you do,” it’s not code for “you must be an idiot, or you would be farther along by now.” It’s an honest observation based on my experience in recovery. These are just a couple of examples that come to mind. Feel free to add more.
And speaking of letting go—I find the three A’s to be one of the truest and most useful Alanon tools. Awareness-->Acceptance-->Action. These are progressive steps that must happen in the order presented to be effective. I’ve, seen over the years, many people (myself included) attempt to go straight from Awareness to Action. Why? Because Acceptance is IMO the most difficult part of recovery. Letting go is hard, painful, and goes against everything we feel and believe. Leaving or staying doesn’t matter. That is action. Trying to take action before acceptance rarely works out for the best. I know this because I did it.
I always have and will continue to speak the truth as I see it, through my own filters of a 20-year marriage to an alcoholic, and my continuing and ongoing recovery. I do not have any malicious intent. I realize I cannot make anyone see anything. But, I can point the way, having been there once. It doesn’t matter to me if you like the way I point. It’s your life. Where you are at in your recovery is where you are at. Personally, I’m grateful for those who are further down the road. They shine a light for me to see what’s ahead, even if I’m not ready to go there yet.
BTW, I love when someone posts something that gets me thinking. So, thanks WTBH. You made me think.
L
Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 1,637
Leaving does not fix things. It can sometimes create space to answer this question and other questions that need to be answered, but leaving in and of itself isn’t a solution.
I needed to get full awareness of what I was up against. And then I needed acceptance. And those things are permanent steps. You don't achieve them and say, "There! I'm done!" Nope. There's backsliding and side stepping. It's a process, that hopefully moves forward (but not necessarily).
It took me 6 YEARS to get where I am today. I don't know, maybe I'm a slow learner... but I don't care. It happened on the schedule/timeframe that worked for me, and my HP. I know there were others that warned me. They could see where I was heading. They wanted to save me from the pain... but that's not their job. But, they planted a seed so that the information was there when I was ready to hear it. I left SR for several years... and I still don't know why I came back back in March. I don't remember what jogged my memory, or how I ended up on the site. I was shocked that I even remembered my login information!!!
Anyways... I'm back here because the alcoholism doesn't go away on its own. And the problems DO escalate. And it's bigger and stronger than me. And hopefully somebody out there reads my posts and it gives them the courage to change. The courage to speak out about what they are living through.
I wholeheartedly agree... it boils down to very simply... Awareness, Acceptance, and Action.
There's a reason that al-anon is filled with simple slogans... because we need to keep it simple. We get so caught up in the chaos that everything seems so complex and insurmountable. We need to learn to step back, take a deep breath, and keep it simple... one step at a time. One day at a time.
I'm so glad I'm back here. It's where I need to be right now... for reasons that only my HP fully understands.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
I was just thinking about these steps, too!
How at first I tried, gently, to discuss my concerns with my AH and was shut down.
So, I ignored/dismissed them (not yet at awareness).
After many rounds of that, I realized they were serious concerns (awareness).
Then, I tried to talk to him about it, except with me being serious with consequences (straight to action).
He balked and turned angry, hurt and shut down.
I did great with awareness, and tried to figure out what my next action would be, while slowly even CONSIDERING approaching acceptance.
From then to now, I have tried so many actions...maybe if I say the right thing (action) he'll change. Maybe if I leave (action), he'll change. Maybe if come home (action), he'll change. Maybe if I stop talking to him (action), he'll change. Maybe if I start talking again (action), he'll change.
No, but I REALLY want him to change, can't he see?? :P
Acceptance, for me, has been a VERY SLOW process. It is a painful one. It is the internal one. It is the one that no one can affect, but me. It requires me to wrestle with ALL my demons/attachements - my dreams, my hopes, my wishes, my fantasies, my possibilities, and my control issues.
I am ATTACHED to him being my husband (and not abusing alcohol).
I am ATTACHED to him being able to hear my concerns and not get rediculously cranky and yuck.
I am ATTACHED to him acknowledging he lies/lied.
I am ATTACHED to him getting support through therapy or AA.
I am ATTACHED to him knowing that I love him.
And trust me, there is a lifetime more I could list!
Let go, fp. Let go of trying to make him what you want him to be.
Let go of getting upset at how he is!
Let go of having to review how he behaved, when it is no surprise anymore. Let go of arguing with him because he frustrates you. Let go of trying to get him to see it your way. Let go of having him understand. Let go of wanting him to do it your way.
Yeah. He's in denial about stuff. Yeah, he's defensive. Yeah, he was angry and snotty and shut down. Yep. He's saying he's over it (abusing alcohol, hiding it, being unreasonably grumpy) and you don't believe him. Yes. He won't become an AA'er. Yes, he is depressed and is grandiose and is saying you never loved him. Ad infinitum. Yep; all true.
Just accept all that.
HOLY SMOKES, that is tough! 'Cuz if he could only be...he would be SO GREAT. Perfect. He'd be perfect.
But he's not perfect, he's human (acceptance). And his very human issues, don't serve my wants very well. Not only that, but I disrespect him when I make him feel bad for being who he is. I disrespect him when I try to get him to be the him I want, rather than who he is (acceptance).
This acceptance piece is so deep.
It is so deep. LOL!
It is a FUNDAMENTAL SHIFT that is like resetting the course of a cruise ship. Slow slow slow slow to change.
I get it intellectually first (in fits and starts, then forget, then remember, etc. etc.), and then to TRULY express it in my life?
Wowee.
I've tried resentful acceptance.
Wistful acceptance.
Bitter acceptance.
Disappointed acceptance.
Reluctant acceptance.
There's a lot of other stuff in there, and not much acceptance.
I can almost say it is a gentle thing.
I notice I've moved a bit toward acceptance, almost as an afterthought.
It allows the pain to lessen.
It eases anger.
It allows me to appreciate my AH for his gifts.
There is much grieving (for me) between awareness and acceptance.
Oceans of it.
There is anger and bargaining and hopelessness and disappointment.
There is righteousness and denial and confusion.
It is a challenging road to walk.
It is easier to stay in awareness and get support for how crummy the situation is, or he is. I can't tell you how many calls I have made to friends about what he was doing and how sucky it was.
Still no acceptance OR action on my part there.
So, I am divorcing.
Action before acceptance?
Perhaps.
I think acceptance takes a long time.
I'm not sure I can wait.
Or perhaps I have accepted, on some level, that he is who he is and it doesn't work for me, and that is enough (for now) for the divorce action.
There is MUCH MUCH more acceptance needed.
Pretty much, it is the biggest life lesson I have met.
I think I'll be working on it till I die.
Thanks for the post.
fp
How at first I tried, gently, to discuss my concerns with my AH and was shut down.
So, I ignored/dismissed them (not yet at awareness).
After many rounds of that, I realized they were serious concerns (awareness).
Then, I tried to talk to him about it, except with me being serious with consequences (straight to action).
He balked and turned angry, hurt and shut down.
I did great with awareness, and tried to figure out what my next action would be, while slowly even CONSIDERING approaching acceptance.
From then to now, I have tried so many actions...maybe if I say the right thing (action) he'll change. Maybe if I leave (action), he'll change. Maybe if come home (action), he'll change. Maybe if I stop talking to him (action), he'll change. Maybe if I start talking again (action), he'll change.
No, but I REALLY want him to change, can't he see?? :P
Acceptance, for me, has been a VERY SLOW process. It is a painful one. It is the internal one. It is the one that no one can affect, but me. It requires me to wrestle with ALL my demons/attachements - my dreams, my hopes, my wishes, my fantasies, my possibilities, and my control issues.
I am ATTACHED to him being my husband (and not abusing alcohol).
I am ATTACHED to him being able to hear my concerns and not get rediculously cranky and yuck.
I am ATTACHED to him acknowledging he lies/lied.
I am ATTACHED to him getting support through therapy or AA.
I am ATTACHED to him knowing that I love him.
And trust me, there is a lifetime more I could list!
Let go, fp. Let go of trying to make him what you want him to be.
Let go of getting upset at how he is!
Let go of having to review how he behaved, when it is no surprise anymore. Let go of arguing with him because he frustrates you. Let go of trying to get him to see it your way. Let go of having him understand. Let go of wanting him to do it your way.
Yeah. He's in denial about stuff. Yeah, he's defensive. Yeah, he was angry and snotty and shut down. Yep. He's saying he's over it (abusing alcohol, hiding it, being unreasonably grumpy) and you don't believe him. Yes. He won't become an AA'er. Yes, he is depressed and is grandiose and is saying you never loved him. Ad infinitum. Yep; all true.
Just accept all that.
HOLY SMOKES, that is tough! 'Cuz if he could only be...he would be SO GREAT. Perfect. He'd be perfect.
But he's not perfect, he's human (acceptance). And his very human issues, don't serve my wants very well. Not only that, but I disrespect him when I make him feel bad for being who he is. I disrespect him when I try to get him to be the him I want, rather than who he is (acceptance).
This acceptance piece is so deep.
It is so deep. LOL!
It is a FUNDAMENTAL SHIFT that is like resetting the course of a cruise ship. Slow slow slow slow to change.
I get it intellectually first (in fits and starts, then forget, then remember, etc. etc.), and then to TRULY express it in my life?
Wowee.
I've tried resentful acceptance.
Wistful acceptance.
Bitter acceptance.
Disappointed acceptance.
Reluctant acceptance.
There's a lot of other stuff in there, and not much acceptance.
I can almost say it is a gentle thing.
I notice I've moved a bit toward acceptance, almost as an afterthought.
It allows the pain to lessen.
It eases anger.
It allows me to appreciate my AH for his gifts.
There is much grieving (for me) between awareness and acceptance.
Oceans of it.
There is anger and bargaining and hopelessness and disappointment.
There is righteousness and denial and confusion.
It is a challenging road to walk.
It is easier to stay in awareness and get support for how crummy the situation is, or he is. I can't tell you how many calls I have made to friends about what he was doing and how sucky it was.
Still no acceptance OR action on my part there.
So, I am divorcing.
Action before acceptance?
Perhaps.
I think acceptance takes a long time.
I'm not sure I can wait.
Or perhaps I have accepted, on some level, that he is who he is and it doesn't work for me, and that is enough (for now) for the divorce action.
There is MUCH MUCH more acceptance needed.
Pretty much, it is the biggest life lesson I have met.
I think I'll be working on it till I die.
Thanks for the post.
fp
Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,095
After being on this board for five+ years, I’ve seen a lot of people come here in pain. In all my time here, I can count on one hand the number of people who have been downright mean or malicious, although many times I’ve seen people accused of such, including myself.
This right here is why I got so frustrated. I am working through the pain. I am making changes. I was accused repeatedly of only wanting to hear what supported what I was saying even though I've said repeatedly that's not true because I was asking for a miniscule amt of respect for where I am at. I am not where others are. I am where I am. I am further along the path to recovery than I was a week ago and in a week will be further still.
It's frustrating to be working hard, knowing how hard I am working and how seriously I am taking my life- finally- and to be told "you're not doing it well enough, fast enough or in the way I'd have you do it" is like a kick in the stomach.
I am proud of what I have accomplished since late Jan. I felt beaten down that no matter how much I tried to say "no, that's NOT what I am saying" there were some who thought they knew better. Maybe I am not the best at word choice and making clear right off the bat what I am saying, but I expected that when I said "no, this is what I meant" that I would not be told "oh no you don't-- you don't understand".
There is PLENTY I don't understand. More to be revealed etc... But right now, today, the things I DO know are this:
- I don't want to accept AH as he is and he has the right to stay who he is but I have the right to say that doesn't work for me and I have the right to be happy and being with AH isn't making me happy.
- I don't know if AH will ever change. He might or might not. If he does, great. But I am not living for the maybe's anymore. Right now this is not a life I want and instead of being angry at AH for "ruining" my life (which is what I felt for a lonnnnng time), I feel angry at me for tolerating a life that I haven't been happy with for a long time.
- I have not responded to any calls/texts/emails from AH's family and they have been on full attack for the past few weeks- for ME this is HUGE. I last read an email from MIL last week. Since then I have just deleted without reading/listening.
- I am not apologizing for putting ME first. Not to my family, not to AH, not to my colleagues, not to my kids. I take time to run each day. The girls see me taking time for me and I think that's healthy.
- I am okay with AH sleeping at our house. We don't have $ for him to live elsewhere. Having him here isn't his controlling me. I am choosing it. Saving $ right now is a priority.
- I am standing up for myself with AH and anyone else I need to stand up to for that matter. I won't apologize for doing so. I am not crying, yelling, begging or doing any of the other crazy things I did for years. The calmer I feel, the more annoyed AH seems to be but it also shuts his fits right down bc I am not adding to the mix like I used to.
- I am talking to people- friends, family etc.. about the "secrets" that have gone on in my home for years. I haven't talked to anyone about my home life for years and have started to do so and it is liberating.
- I am developing hobbies I'd given up, I am exploring work options I never would have if I hadn't lost my job and I am not letting AH's King Baby attitude about not wanting anything to change in his life, impact the choices I am making for my girls and I.
I am sure there's more... but there are a lot of things I feel good about right now and I guess I'd just like it if there were a bit more equilibrium between attacking and criticizing and perhaps looking at what I am saying and seeing that maybe my saying that I really am making changes is true and just taking that at face value.
I want to hear others stories and see what more there is to discover but I don't think that needs to happen in the context of being told that bc I am not where someone else is that it means I am not doing anything and not making any progress... That's just a downer and not accurate...
This one bothered me yesterday bc while I may not have let go as much as some others have-- for ME, right now, TODAY, I have let go waaaay more than ever before. I know there's more to come but I am actually taking the advice of al anon and taking things day by day. I am not looking a yr ahead and stressing about where I "should" be. I am able to look at me and say I know I am making steady progress and that's good for me today. Letting go of the hope of what marriage would be, letting go of wishing he'd "get it" have been really hard. And I have let go of both and to have someone tell me "you might think you have let go but you haven't" is just inaccurate and disheartening.
I've been told by my therapist that acting first leads to understanding/acceptance. If you want to fully understand and accept before you act, you may never act. I have taken steps to act while still trying to fully understand. I am sure there is more to accept that I haven't figured out yet but coming from accepting NOTHING a few months ago, I have accepted a lot. The things that first come to mind...
- I accept I can't change AH and I accept and see that I've been insane for trying to do so for years.
- I accept that I have contributed to making things worse for us all through my attempts to control and change and "show" AH what he needed to do to get better (even when I thought it was "well intentioned")
- I accept that the ONLY person who can make me happy is ME.
- I accept that I am not sure how to go about living a whole new life and that it is daunting but I am eager to do so and feel there is a whole new leash on live that I've grasped and am already starting to live
- I accept that I have made bad choices for my kids and while I could have made changes years ago, at least I am making them now rather than in 5 yrs. They are better now than they were a few months ago and as long as we aren't sliding backwards (the girls and I) that's progress.
- I accept that changes don't occur overnight and I am patient and tolerant with myself.
- I accept that I don't really understand what "flipped" in me a few weeks ago but I FEEL different than ever before-- not just in my marriage, but in my life-- I feel I DESERVE better, I feel I have a lot to offer, I actually have self esteem (which I never thought I would), I am happier with my kids, with my life and with myself than I have been in years and I am trusting that as long as I am trying and working toward change day by day, my HP (a notion I scoffed at a few months ago) will continue to help.
I'd like it if when I share this with people on here others could hear that I am sharing positive progress but if people choose to just see what is missing instead of what I am gaining, that's not something I can control. That's not something I have fully accepted yet but I am aware of it being something that needs to change and it's good that last night occurred bc it made me aware of many more things I want to work on...
Some choose to stay in pain, some find a way through it, and some just stop posting.
This right here is why I got so frustrated. I am working through the pain. I am making changes. I was accused repeatedly of only wanting to hear what supported what I was saying even though I've said repeatedly that's not true because I was asking for a miniscule amt of respect for where I am at. I am not where others are. I am where I am. I am further along the path to recovery than I was a week ago and in a week will be further still.
It's frustrating to be working hard, knowing how hard I am working and how seriously I am taking my life- finally- and to be told "you're not doing it well enough, fast enough or in the way I'd have you do it" is like a kick in the stomach.
I am proud of what I have accomplished since late Jan. I felt beaten down that no matter how much I tried to say "no, that's NOT what I am saying" there were some who thought they knew better. Maybe I am not the best at word choice and making clear right off the bat what I am saying, but I expected that when I said "no, this is what I meant" that I would not be told "oh no you don't-- you don't understand".
There is PLENTY I don't understand. More to be revealed etc... But right now, today, the things I DO know are this:
- I don't want to accept AH as he is and he has the right to stay who he is but I have the right to say that doesn't work for me and I have the right to be happy and being with AH isn't making me happy.
- I don't know if AH will ever change. He might or might not. If he does, great. But I am not living for the maybe's anymore. Right now this is not a life I want and instead of being angry at AH for "ruining" my life (which is what I felt for a lonnnnng time), I feel angry at me for tolerating a life that I haven't been happy with for a long time.
- I have not responded to any calls/texts/emails from AH's family and they have been on full attack for the past few weeks- for ME this is HUGE. I last read an email from MIL last week. Since then I have just deleted without reading/listening.
- I am not apologizing for putting ME first. Not to my family, not to AH, not to my colleagues, not to my kids. I take time to run each day. The girls see me taking time for me and I think that's healthy.
- I am okay with AH sleeping at our house. We don't have $ for him to live elsewhere. Having him here isn't his controlling me. I am choosing it. Saving $ right now is a priority.
- I am standing up for myself with AH and anyone else I need to stand up to for that matter. I won't apologize for doing so. I am not crying, yelling, begging or doing any of the other crazy things I did for years. The calmer I feel, the more annoyed AH seems to be but it also shuts his fits right down bc I am not adding to the mix like I used to.
- I am talking to people- friends, family etc.. about the "secrets" that have gone on in my home for years. I haven't talked to anyone about my home life for years and have started to do so and it is liberating.
- I am developing hobbies I'd given up, I am exploring work options I never would have if I hadn't lost my job and I am not letting AH's King Baby attitude about not wanting anything to change in his life, impact the choices I am making for my girls and I.
I am sure there's more... but there are a lot of things I feel good about right now and I guess I'd just like it if there were a bit more equilibrium between attacking and criticizing and perhaps looking at what I am saying and seeing that maybe my saying that I really am making changes is true and just taking that at face value.
I want to hear others stories and see what more there is to discover but I don't think that needs to happen in the context of being told that bc I am not where someone else is that it means I am not doing anything and not making any progress... That's just a downer and not accurate...
If I say “you haven’t let go yet and you will feel relief when you do,” it’s not code for “you must be an idiot, or you would be farther along by now.” It’s an honest observation based on my experience in recovery. These are just a couple of examples that come to mind. Feel free to add more.
And speaking of letting go—I find the three A’s to be one of the truest and most useful Alanon tools. Awareness-->Acceptance-->Action. These are progressive steps that must happen in the order presented to be effective.
- I accept I can't change AH and I accept and see that I've been insane for trying to do so for years.
- I accept that I have contributed to making things worse for us all through my attempts to control and change and "show" AH what he needed to do to get better (even when I thought it was "well intentioned")
- I accept that the ONLY person who can make me happy is ME.
- I accept that I am not sure how to go about living a whole new life and that it is daunting but I am eager to do so and feel there is a whole new leash on live that I've grasped and am already starting to live
- I accept that I have made bad choices for my kids and while I could have made changes years ago, at least I am making them now rather than in 5 yrs. They are better now than they were a few months ago and as long as we aren't sliding backwards (the girls and I) that's progress.
- I accept that changes don't occur overnight and I am patient and tolerant with myself.
- I accept that I don't really understand what "flipped" in me a few weeks ago but I FEEL different than ever before-- not just in my marriage, but in my life-- I feel I DESERVE better, I feel I have a lot to offer, I actually have self esteem (which I never thought I would), I am happier with my kids, with my life and with myself than I have been in years and I am trusting that as long as I am trying and working toward change day by day, my HP (a notion I scoffed at a few months ago) will continue to help.
I'd like it if when I share this with people on here others could hear that I am sharing positive progress but if people choose to just see what is missing instead of what I am gaining, that's not something I can control. That's not something I have fully accepted yet but I am aware of it being something that needs to change and it's good that last night occurred bc it made me aware of many more things I want to work on...
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 4,719
Well I sure missed the action last night - and glad I did. I went back and read through the posts in question...didn't see anything I personally found offensive but obviously others did and all I can say is tough love hurts sometimes. It hurts to feel criticized, especially when we've been that for many years by crazy alcoholics. But the criticism on this board is very constructive and most here mean well.
I guess I am used to being challenged in my thinking and allowing what doesn't work to fly right by...I come from a confrontational family...its the way I grew up. I have my own personal "ignore" button although its not always working!
Yesterday I was teasing a pregnant colleague about teenage girls (she's having a girl, I have two teenage girls) and another much older colleague chastised me and told me I was being "rude" right in the midst of the conversation. I turned to her and said, "Thanks Mom" and smiled. It really pissed me off inside, but the figurative ignore button kicked in and I haven't thought about it again until this morning. She was way out of line. But you know what? Not worth a confrontation, because she wasn't being "mean" on purpose, she was just being a "Mom" and overstepped the professionalism boundary with me.
Pick your battles wisely - the energy expended could be much more productive in other areas of your life than responding to each and every missile hurtling your way, perceived or real.
I guess I am used to being challenged in my thinking and allowing what doesn't work to fly right by...I come from a confrontational family...its the way I grew up. I have my own personal "ignore" button although its not always working!
Yesterday I was teasing a pregnant colleague about teenage girls (she's having a girl, I have two teenage girls) and another much older colleague chastised me and told me I was being "rude" right in the midst of the conversation. I turned to her and said, "Thanks Mom" and smiled. It really pissed me off inside, but the figurative ignore button kicked in and I haven't thought about it again until this morning. She was way out of line. But you know what? Not worth a confrontation, because she wasn't being "mean" on purpose, she was just being a "Mom" and overstepped the professionalism boundary with me.
Pick your battles wisely - the energy expended could be much more productive in other areas of your life than responding to each and every missile hurtling your way, perceived or real.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,095
Getting By-
Thank you-- you really get it and I appreciate your posts a lot... I agree-- it is not anyone else's job to tell us how to "get it" or when to "get it". Maybe last night was my taste of how my AH has felt all the times I've tried to tell him how to do things, why I know better, telling him it was all for his own good etc... All well intentioned but not the least bit helpful for him. He had to and still has to figure it out on his own. And so do I.
I will say this-- there have been many people here in recent weeks who have offered great thoughts, asked questions, pushed me and I have made many changes as a result of the prompting I've received to see things more clearly.
The old adage of catching more bees with honey than vinegar though is something for us all to keep in mind.
I work with kids with EBD (emotional/behavioral disabilities) and when I come down hard that is the surest way to shut them down. I think that most humans hear messages better when they are not being yelled at (literally or figuratively).
Thank you-- you really get it and I appreciate your posts a lot... I agree-- it is not anyone else's job to tell us how to "get it" or when to "get it". Maybe last night was my taste of how my AH has felt all the times I've tried to tell him how to do things, why I know better, telling him it was all for his own good etc... All well intentioned but not the least bit helpful for him. He had to and still has to figure it out on his own. And so do I.
I will say this-- there have been many people here in recent weeks who have offered great thoughts, asked questions, pushed me and I have made many changes as a result of the prompting I've received to see things more clearly.
The old adage of catching more bees with honey than vinegar though is something for us all to keep in mind.
I work with kids with EBD (emotional/behavioral disabilities) and when I come down hard that is the surest way to shut them down. I think that most humans hear messages better when they are not being yelled at (literally or figuratively).
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Pick your battles wisely - the energy expended could be much more productive in other areas of your life than responding to each and every missile hurtling your way, perceived or real.
thank you Tuffgirl.
:ghug3
Beth
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Tough love= giving advice based on facts.
Judging= reading what someone says, interpreting it based on your own life and telling someone you know better than they do what they think and feel.
Tough love is not a problem. Judging is.
But that's just me. Maybe others see these 2 things being synonymous.
Food for thought: Just because someone thinks that what they are doing is tough love (vs being abrasive) does that make it so? Because even though I thought for a long time that I was giving my AH tough love, what I was actually doing was telling him I knew better than he did what was best for him and that's not tough love. That was presumptuous of me and not okay. And it's no more okay on here than it was for me to do that with him in my own home.
Just something to think about... I did happen to think that several people were out of line last night but now I will ignore their posts-- not bc of tough love but bc a line was crossed. But the nice thing about being human is that we all have our own minds and can all interpret things differently. I just think we ought to be more respectful in our delivery at times-- expressing different opinions in a bullying manner isn't productive or acceptable. And while I could have just ignored it, I've see a few people bullied by one particular member and I felt like saying something in hopes it might make that person think twice next time.
Judging= reading what someone says, interpreting it based on your own life and telling someone you know better than they do what they think and feel.
Tough love is not a problem. Judging is.
But that's just me. Maybe others see these 2 things being synonymous.
Food for thought: Just because someone thinks that what they are doing is tough love (vs being abrasive) does that make it so? Because even though I thought for a long time that I was giving my AH tough love, what I was actually doing was telling him I knew better than he did what was best for him and that's not tough love. That was presumptuous of me and not okay. And it's no more okay on here than it was for me to do that with him in my own home.
Just something to think about... I did happen to think that several people were out of line last night but now I will ignore their posts-- not bc of tough love but bc a line was crossed. But the nice thing about being human is that we all have our own minds and can all interpret things differently. I just think we ought to be more respectful in our delivery at times-- expressing different opinions in a bullying manner isn't productive or acceptable. And while I could have just ignored it, I've see a few people bullied by one particular member and I felt like saying something in hopes it might make that person think twice next time.
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Originally Posted by wanttobehealthy 
Tough love= giving advice based on facts.
Judging= reading what someone says, interpreting it based on your own life and telling someone you know better than they do what they think and feel.
Tough love is not a problem. Judging is.
But that's just me. Maybe others see these 2 things being synonymous.
Food for thought: Just because someone thinks that what they are doing is tough love (vs being abrasive) does that make it so? Because even though I thought for a long time that I was giving my AH tough love, what I was actually doing was telling him I knew better than he did what was best for him and that's not tough love. That was presumptuous of me and not okay. And it's no more okay on here than it was for me to do that with him in my own home.
Just something to think about... I did happen to think that several people were out of line last night but now I will ignore their posts-- not bc of tough love but bc a line was crossed. But the nice thing about being human is that we all have our own minds and can all interpret things differently. I just think we ought to be more respectful in our delivery at times-- expressing different opinions in a bullying manner isn't productive or acceptable. And while I could have just ignored it, I've see a few people bullied by one particular member and I felt like saying something in hopes it might make that person think twice next time.
Judging= reading what someone says, interpreting it based on your own life and telling someone you know better than they do what they think and feel.
Tough love is not a problem. Judging is.
But that's just me. Maybe others see these 2 things being synonymous.
Food for thought: Just because someone thinks that what they are doing is tough love (vs being abrasive) does that make it so? Because even though I thought for a long time that I was giving my AH tough love, what I was actually doing was telling him I knew better than he did what was best for him and that's not tough love. That was presumptuous of me and not okay. And it's no more okay on here than it was for me to do that with him in my own home.
Just something to think about... I did happen to think that several people were out of line last night but now I will ignore their posts-- not bc of tough love but bc a line was crossed. But the nice thing about being human is that we all have our own minds and can all interpret things differently. I just think we ought to be more respectful in our delivery at times-- expressing different opinions in a bullying manner isn't productive or acceptable. And while I could have just ignored it, I've see a few people bullied by one particular member and I felt like saying something in hopes it might make that person think twice next time.
You are working through this chaos. You are doing a great job. You are human and allowed to get pissed off - as a matter of fact who wouldn't be angry in your situation?! I know I still have anger to deal with. And acceptance is a daily process for me - I wake up every morning practicing it. Some days are better than others. I just hope you don't give up on the rest of us here - you have a lot of your own ES&H to offer that helps others (including me) here.
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Originally Posted by wanttobehealthy
It's frustrating to be working hard, knowing how hard I am working and how seriously I am taking my life- finally- and to be told "you're not doing it well enough, fast enough or in the way I'd have you do it" is like a kick in the stomach.
Originally Posted by wanttobehealthy
I am sure there's more... but there are a lot of things I feel good about right now and I guess I'd just like it if there were a bit more equilibrium between attacking and criticizing and perhaps looking at what I am saying and seeing that maybe my saying that I really am making changes is true and just taking that at face value.
Originally Posted by wanttobehealthy
I want to hear others stories and see what more there is to discover but I don't think that needs to happen in the context of being told that bc I am not where someone else is that it means I am not doing anything and not making any progress... That's just a downer and not accurate...
And that was the point of me starting this thread, actually. We all have our filters, we all have our perceptions, without them we wouldn't be human.
L
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I did not go back and quote precisely what was said... I can if that would help...
Being told "I know you find me xxxx" and when I said "no, actually I don't" the nastiness began was out of line (Suki). Being told later "you are saying xxxx but I don't believe you actually mean it" and "you say you feel compassion but I believe it's pity" and "It's obvious to me that although you are saying xxxx you aren't doing XXXX" (when I was saying the opposite) is all stuff that was totally unnecessary and not okay with me.
I don't know who said what at this point and I don't care anymore. The people who were out of line are people who I don't need in my life. There's direct and honest and there's borderline out of line and a few people crossed that line and I'm not the only one who perceived that-- maybe we're all misperceiving or maybe there was inappropriate behavior.
I think that sometimes when people are called out on their assumptions (all was fine prior to my saying to Suki please don't tell me that you know how I feel about you and make assumptions) they lash out. That's my perception. Maybe it's wrong. Maybe it's not.
Having been with my AH for 10+ yrs I've gotten pretty good at picking up on passive aggressive behavior and I sure felt a lot of that happening last night.
Being told "I know you find me xxxx" and when I said "no, actually I don't" the nastiness began was out of line (Suki). Being told later "you are saying xxxx but I don't believe you actually mean it" and "you say you feel compassion but I believe it's pity" and "It's obvious to me that although you are saying xxxx you aren't doing XXXX" (when I was saying the opposite) is all stuff that was totally unnecessary and not okay with me.
I don't know who said what at this point and I don't care anymore. The people who were out of line are people who I don't need in my life. There's direct and honest and there's borderline out of line and a few people crossed that line and I'm not the only one who perceived that-- maybe we're all misperceiving or maybe there was inappropriate behavior.
I think that sometimes when people are called out on their assumptions (all was fine prior to my saying to Suki please don't tell me that you know how I feel about you and make assumptions) they lash out. That's my perception. Maybe it's wrong. Maybe it's not.
Having been with my AH for 10+ yrs I've gotten pretty good at picking up on passive aggressive behavior and I sure felt a lot of that happening last night.
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And, finally I know that ALLOWING child abuse is a trigger for me, and one of those things where I know I have a huge filter. I see no gray areas, even a little bit of abuse is never OK.
I'd really love to know what you'd suggest I do differently about my kids? Truly. Please tell me the magical solution. Right now I can do what I am doing which is not having them be alone with AH or I can divorce him and he will have unsupervised visitation and 50% custody. Which of those seems more responsible to you?
Know what I have a problem with? People who think they know it all and pass judgement on whether I am protecting my kids when they are NOT living in my shoes.
Have you dealt with the court system and DV and custody? I have. If you want to direct something to me (ie: ALLOWING child abuse) please be direct and not passive aggressive. That sort of behavior isn't much in line with "recovery" now is it?!
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Originally Posted by wanttobehealthy
I did not go back and quote precisely what was said... I can if that would help...
I started this thread as a way to say thanks for the thought-provoking discussion and to point out that, yes I do have my own perceptions, and so do you, and so does everyone here. And that's not a bad thing--as long as we can recognize it.
I didn't intend to rehash all the perceived injustice that you felt was done to you. But, if that's what helps you at this point in your recovery--go for it.
L
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Originally Posted by LaTeeDa
Would it? Help you, that is? If so, knock yourself out.
I started this thread as a way to say thanks for the thought-provoking discussion and to point out that, yes I do have my own perceptions, and so do you, and so does everyone here. And that's not a bad thing--as long as we can recognize it.
I didn't intend to rehash all the perceived injustice that you felt was done to you. But, if that's what helps you at this point in your recovery--go for it.
L
I started this thread as a way to say thanks for the thought-provoking discussion and to point out that, yes I do have my own perceptions, and so do you, and so does everyone here. And that's not a bad thing--as long as we can recognize it.
I didn't intend to rehash all the perceived injustice that you felt was done to you. But, if that's what helps you at this point in your recovery--go for it.
L
I actually was waiting to see this kind of post-- accusations continue to be made, and when I say "well, what my issue was was xxxx" I knew it was a matter of time before something like this was posted. Again, this is like a crash course in reminding me of all the insanity of dealing with circular conversations with my AH. I appreciate how much you and several others are showing me that even in "recovery" there are still lots of people who continue to espouse addicted type behaviors.
My defending myself is one such example and your snarky remark below is an example of yours.
I didn't intend to rehash all the perceived injustice that you felt was done to you. But, if that's what helps you at this point in your recovery--go for it.
Tell me, if it makes you feel better or justified, where exactly I am "rehashing the perceived injustices". I think that saying "attacking and abusive behavior is not okay" is not rehashing. And for what it's worth it was not a matter of perception. Suki and now you were and are out of line.
When people don't like being called on their inappropriate behavior some choose to look at their behavior and be humble and own it and others continue to blame.
I did not attack anyone -- I posted about the stupidity of engaging in a conversation with AH on Sat and when Suki was called on an assumption/accusation she didn't like it and that started the attack ball rolling.
If it helps you feel better about yourself to continue to tell me that I can't see what I am doing and I don't see how I haven't let go then keep saying it. QUACK QUACK QUACK.
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Originally Posted by cynical one
WTBH,
Contrary to the direction La TeeDa's thread on filters has unfortunately taken… sorry it's not ALL ABOUT YOU.
Contrary to the direction La TeeDa's thread on filters has unfortunately taken… sorry it's not ALL ABOUT YOU.
And yeah I am pretty sure that when my words are being quoted and what I said and didn't say is being addressed TO ME, that that's about me.
I think that some of you have a LOT of issues of your own to deal with and I am not a wall flower who is going to be pushed around and be afraid to tell people that I don't like inappropriate treatment.
Again, if you have advice about how to not ALLOW child abuse (caps your emphasis) please tell me.
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You did. I had just posted and you posted this: I know, I am imagining that this was not a passive aggressive remark toward me, right?! Just like I imagine my AH is drunk and imagine that he isn't abusive.
For a 3rd time, if you have advice as to how to not "allow" child abuse (and it's amazing to me that there are several moms in similar situations as me but I am alone in getting wrath from some of you...) I'd love to hear it.
When a poster is giving what I call "the report of the day", meaning an entire post about what the alcoholic/addict is doing, not doing, saying, not saying, then it's obvious where the focus is, and NO they haven't learned how to let go.
And finally, I know that ALLOWING child abuse is a trigger for me, and one of those things where I know I have a huge filter. I see no gray areas, even a little bit of abuse is never OK.
And finally, I know that ALLOWING child abuse is a trigger for me, and one of those things where I know I have a huge filter. I see no gray areas, even a little bit of abuse is never OK.
Just like I imagine my AH is drunk and imagine that he isn't abusive.For a 3rd time, if you have advice as to how to not "allow" child abuse (and it's amazing to me that there are several moms in similar situations as me but I am alone in getting wrath from some of you...) I'd love to hear it.
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Originally Posted by cynical one
WTBH,
Again, sorry. I'll try to time my posts better or not take as long replying to the OP.
Again, sorry. I'll try to time my posts better or not take as long replying to the OP.
You are very angry and I am sorry that you are so consumed with me and what I am doing and saying. I hope you find some peace.
Do some reading on passive aggressive behavior. You are demonstrating it a lot and if it is serving a purpose for you then I guess that's good.
Good luck to you.
To thine own self be true.
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(((hugs))) everybody. Take a deep breath. Let's be a team united in common purpose.
This is one reason why it's so important in 12 Steps that we share about ourSELVES. To translate that here, I try to start my sentences with "I" and sometimes even have to go back and change all my "you"s to "I"s. Sometimes I forget altogether.
I forget that no one else sees things exactly the way I see things, and no one else is in the same exact place I am. And it's super easy for me to forget what it felt like to be IN IT, struggling.
This is one reason why it's so important in 12 Steps that we share about ourSELVES. To translate that here, I try to start my sentences with "I" and sometimes even have to go back and change all my "you"s to "I"s. Sometimes I forget altogether.
I forget that no one else sees things exactly the way I see things, and no one else is in the same exact place I am. And it's super easy for me to forget what it felt like to be IN IT, struggling.
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WTBH...
I think you and I connect... there are a lot of similiarities to our situations, and because of that common bond... and a true care and concern for YOU...
Please step away from the keyboard.
I think it was you the other day that told me I needed a TIME OUT from AH. I was getting all riled up and acting/reacting to him. It was a game of tug-of-war that was going to eat me alive.
Please take a breather... go get some fresh air. Treat yourself to something special (fancy coffees usually do it for me!)... and be kind and gentle to yourself, okay? I care, and will be here when you get back.
I think you and I connect... there are a lot of similiarities to our situations, and because of that common bond... and a true care and concern for YOU...
Please step away from the keyboard.
I think it was you the other day that told me I needed a TIME OUT from AH. I was getting all riled up and acting/reacting to him. It was a game of tug-of-war that was going to eat me alive.
Please take a breather... go get some fresh air. Treat yourself to something special (fancy coffees usually do it for me!)... and be kind and gentle to yourself, okay? I care, and will be here when you get back.
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