Buffalo66

HE lives outside the home. He is physically sober.
He works, has cut way back on hanging out at the bar.
He has started going to a few meetings here and there.

He is offering to help me buy a better than junkie used vehicle, one that will be safe and workable like the one I have, but maybe look a little better, need less maintenance.

He is being nice, mostly.

I have limited contact with him, two phone calls a day with our son/ but we chat. SOme days he calls because he wants to talk to me, I dont always just shut him down or not answer. I talk to him. If he gets weird/paranoid/accusatory/dark/beset, etc...I end the call, and go about my day! (this is new, and SOOOO refreshing!)

He is kicking butt at work.

My sons counselor has asked him to come to a session, to get involved, so that we can work on/resolve sons anger at me about RAH being gone from home.

HE says he has a lot of work,and will be able to come to sessions in a week or so... which I believe. But he does not work all the time.

He has seen/spent time with son very little since he left over a month ago. I try to set things up, he has come over, had panic and had to leave twice, and another time, he just took him shopping, then brought him right home.

I am angry with him. He is trying to be nice, even throwing out romantic comments here and there.
He is not sleeping around, not using girls to fill his time, not lying, at least about major things. I am surprised that he is not filling his empty spaces with women.
A mutual friend told me that he is trying to get his life in gear, to prove to me that he is trustworthy as a parent, and that he wants to make things right financially, based on his years of neglect.

He has had a few momentous self realizations, which he shared, and has a mentioned a few that he does not want to share.
If we get "into it" over something, he is tending more to just back down and say, "I may be in the wrong and I do not know it. I am not immune to that possibility. I know I have some major blindspots"...

But I am so angry.

I want him to want to see our son. He has himself convinced that financial success is good parenting, but his little boy is just dying to see him, and he cannot make the time. (?)
Thats really all about the panic that he is not addressing, and which being around son triggers.

I am still coming down on him, occassionally. And he says, "you just seem uncomfortable with me doing the right things...You seem like you NEED to keep me a F88k up."

Is this true?
Am I expecting too much?
Wanting him to work, and spend time with son, and be a decent person to me?

He owes me tens of thousands of dollars, not on the books, for the years that I did it all alone...A helping hand with a car is nice, but it just scratches the surface.

I cant tell, right now, if I am just holding onto a position of anger and resentment for its own sake.

Should I ease up, give him some of the acknowledgement he seems to want so much from me?

Its hard. I have no doubt I did the right thing, and I think he sees it, too, in regard to him living away from us.
And he wants to know if we have a future. I keep saying that I cant say anything for sure about that, just like he cant say he will NEVER lie, or drink again. Just for today, One day at a time,,,,etc...

I just feel like, there is this quiet little part of me that is so proud of him, but I feel unsafe giving that to him. I cant seem to say, "Hey, you are doing great..." without another part of me slamming in there with, "YEs, and when will you do this and this and this? When will you deal with seeing your child?"

He gives himself a lot of positive feedback....

I guess I am wondering if I am being a cold b*tch.
Today was his six month mark. Sober.

He is very proud, and he sold two jobs today. In the past, that would have meant two days of drinking, and losing a job or two as a result.
All I could do was be cranky that he called twice, but made no effort to make plans to see our son, even though when he called he was asking how much I could manage to put towrd a car, that he would match that and more. It would be in my name, not his, etc...

Any perspectives?

I have been going on the mantra of sustained change. I should just hold my tongue, and watch and allow for sustained change, but not expect a miracle.

BTW, since someone might ask: I have no idea of what the future holds for us romantically. honestly, THAT is my clearest and healthiest view, right now, that I am clear and sure that I have no idea, and I am committed to the present. I genuinely have no plan either way, and am learning to heal within being here, now, and letting go of expectation, maybe truly detaching from THAT non parenting part of it, for the first time in years. And that simple thing has given me a chance to detach from my own identity as a victim, as well as gain some serenity in my everyday life.

trapeze

Buff,

With a couple of minor tweaks, I could have written this about 2 months ago.

My RAH has been out of the house for a year and a half. I don't want him back unless he is providing for his family. He made over 100k for 20 plus years, and only in past year (when I wouldn't let him come back) did he start working at all to pay his own way. This makes me crazy.

We have an incredible teenage son. My husband hasn't worked in a serious way since our son was 11 years old. What kid of example is that? Despite having all that free time, he has spent very little time with our son. Yet he will saying being a good dad is important to him, blah blah blah. He is sober (as best I can tell) and yet his words and actions are still very different.

I have been angry about being deceived, disregarded, and abandoned (emotionally and financially). Why do I have to pay for everything? Why am I raising this wonderful boy without a decent father figure in his life?

I went through a period where I believe I was hanging on to the anger intentionally. Sometimes I think I was hanging on to it because to let go was to admit that maybe this is all there is. Maybe RAH will never do any better as a husband and a father. Maybe I was wrong about the kind of person he is. At some point I have to quit betting on change. Defining that point is a very individual decision.

I found that anger gave me energy, and sadness took it away. So in some ways I prefer anger to sadness. Then I realized that there's another choice - acceptance. This is hard.

Don't get me wrong, I still have a lot of resentment, but it doesn't color as much of my day as it used to. I made a choice to let go of it - for my own sake and the sake of the other people in my life. However, there are triggers for anger still, and it comes back up.

My son misses his dad. I'm sorry about that, and I hope that some day he understands the situation.

Good luck. I hope today is a good day, and you find some peace.

LexieCat

I think trapeze is right--acceptance really IS the answer, here. As much as you'd like him to be further along in his recovery, faster, he is where he is right now. Your anger and disappointment do NOT make you a "cold b*tch" but they don't move things along any faster and they don't help you and your son.

You don't have to shower him with accolades if you don't feel like it. He doesn't NEED your approval to stay sober (or he shouldn't). If you want to accept the car as a gesture that will help you, accept it. If you feel that a different financial contribution would be more helpful to you, tell him that.

My guess is that he is feeling a lot of pressure and anxiety over the parenting thing. That should go away as he continues to recover. I think that you might be better off reassuring your son that his dad loves him and that he just can't show it in the best of ways right now. Ultimately, they will work out their own relationship that will either be good someday or not so good. That's really between them. You can't force it. If you keep your own side of the street clean so you aren't contributing to any bad feelings between them, you've done YOUR job.

Hugs, I think you are doing great. It isn't easy to navigate the waters when everything is in a state of flux.

Thumper

If it were me I would not accept the car. Nothing is for free and I see to many ways for that to cause you misery down the road. If he wants to help I would find a way that directly impacted ds and have him help with that. Daycare, some item he needs, clothes, whatever.

My xah was so focused on getting me back that he ignored his kids. I don't even think it was all that driven by love. He wanted the great enabler back. I could give him lots of stuff. His kids couldn't give him anything. This last counselor explained about how seeing the kids ended in a great nose dive of depression and anxiety and so he avoided them but frankly, I don't give a damn. His counselor also said they were giving him tools to work with that. He can choose to figure it out or not. He held it over my head. I think he partially ignored them or flaked out as a way to either punish me or a way to try and manipulate me back. That infuriated me not in an angry way but in a sick to my stomach way.

As Jazzman pointed out to me. A great father is independent of the relationship with the mother. I struggled a lot with this issue in the beginning and he has said that more then once and I believe him.

When asked what recovery would look like to me it has nothing to do with how he treats me. I realize that our situations are different as we were already divorced and that door has closed (and been nailed shut). I will know my xah is in recovery when he is a good parent.

Recovery is when people start giving of themselves. It is when they start doing the right thing not as a way to get something in return, but just because it is right. Not because it feels good, but because it is right for someone else.

And has already been pointed out. I was angry until I found acceptance. Acceptance was a very sad thing. It was sad to accept that he was not a good parent, despite what he said he wanted or who he said he was. I had believed him all those years. I wanted to believe him. I didn't want to be that wrong. It was sad to accept that I had no respect for the man I married and had children with. It is a tragedy that this is what my children get.

He was not sober then. He is sober now (for a few months) but lives far away so doesn't see them. Time will tell if he ever moves back and becomes a father or not. I'm not invested either way and I have no expectations. If it works out of course I'll be thrilled but I have no *hope*. My kids are probably another story.

I've lost all hope it seems. That is probably not all good but I am a very practical person now. I get what I see and don't hope for a single thing more.

BobbyJ

You wrote:
He is physically sober.
He works, has cut way back on hanging out at the bar.
He has started going to a few meetings here and there.

My question: A FEW meetings here and there, is that TRUE RECOVERY or
Just WHITE KNUCKLING THE PROGRAM?

Am I expecting too much?
Wanting him to work, and spend time with son, and be a decent person to me?

My question: What are you expecting? When we expect, we set ourselves up
for pain and disappointments. They are alcoholics. They only give what they
are capable of giving. Im sure he is giving it his best, is that enough for you?

And he says, "you just seem uncomfortable with me doing the right things...You seem like you NEED to keep me a F88k up."

My question: Isnt that called DENIAL?

Today was his six month mark. Sober.

My question: ARE YOU SURE? Did he just lay down the bottle
and forget that he is an alcoholic and needs his mind & heart repaired?

MY THOUGHTS ARE: I had the anger too, until I realized it was MY denial as much
as it is my RAH....When I stop EXPECTING him to act or say or do the things I want..
The anger started to vanish...

dancingnow

B66 when I read your post I kept thinking, yes this is how I feel and even though I want my AH to get sober and seek true recovery I am so afraid that when/if he does I will never be able to get rid of the anger and resentment.

Sometimes I think Alanon is helping me with this but other times it seems nothing will help.

I think acceptance is probably the best path for me now as trapeze and Lexie posted.

You are doing so great and am cheering for you to find the courage to enjoy any good feelings you can from the changes your RAH is making. You deserve those.

Maybe you can give yourself that gift for this moment and know that you don't have to accept what is unacceptable even if you enjoy these moments.

I think that is where the emotional manipulation comes in for me, my AH always seem to dismiss my feelings by trying to make me see something else that he thought was good. I don't think he has any idea of how unacceptable some of the things between us - emotional and "romantically" were to me. I like your idea of letting go of this right now, that might work for me too.

Thumper

[QUOTE=BobbyJ;2921394] Im sure he is giving it his best, is that enough for you?[/B]

This was a really key point for me. For me one of my strongest 'codie' traits in my relationship was that I wanted to make him feel good. I wanted to fix his heart. If he was trying, or doing his best, my heart melted. It actually felt a heart ache and I wanted to rush in and give him all kinds of strokes, encouragement, positive reinforcement, love, etc. It was hard coming to a place where I could say 'He is doing his very best, and I can recognize and accept that, and still stay that it is not enough for me. Coming to that place did a lot to cleared my confusion.

Tuffgirl

Expectations - seems to be a 'dirty word' when it comes to alcoholism and recovery. Definition: The act of expecting; prospects of success and gain...

I've wondered lately about the difference between expectations, standards of acceptable behavior, and boundaries (Boundaries, formal definition: something that indicates the farthest limit, as of an area; border)

Al-Anon teaches us to have few expectations, if any, and then there are no resentments, disappointments, and surprises. I agree with this to a point. I think it gets muddy when expectations are actually boundaries being maintained, and those maintained are personal standards of acceptable behavior.

Buffalo, correct me if I am misreading your post, but you ask if you are expecting too much. I don't think so at all. What you are expecting is a HUSBAND and a FATHER in all senses of the words. So is that your standard? your boundary for a relationship of this kind? If so, then stand firm on it. You can accept his little baby steps in the right direction, be proud of his attempts, say congratulations and "way to go" every so often, while maintaining a healthy detached distance to see if REAL change occurs. You can still love him, encourage him to see his child, support his recovery. Every so often you see a glimpse of the real person underneath the layers of alcoholic denial. That's cool! But is it sustainable? That remains to be seen. Are you willing to accept him as he is today? Do YOU trust HIM?

My take on Al-Anon and its writings toward expectations is that it means not to expect much from the active alcoholic at all (except maybe more chaos), and very little from the recovering until recovery has been long sustained (years) through a program and is honest and true. And then don't be surprised if (when) they relapse, and don't lose yourself in it all over again. That's JMHO.

Here's what I have come to accept. I love my RAH for the man I knew him to be. This man now - blech, he's an angry jerk who is still blaming me, underneath the pink cloud surface. And that surface is not very deep, although I think he'd like it to be. So when I am being "nice", he'll interact with me, do things for me, be kind and generous, make promises, and so on. The minute I call him on his BS in any way, his anger surfaces and explodes all over me. I do hear some glimpses of the beginnings of personal responsibility, though. And it makes me happy to see the seeds being planted. They will take root eventually and could become a strong force in his life. Right now, they are germinating in the roiling anger still inside. He has a loooong way to go, yet. And I can't take this journey with him and keep my sanity and protect my children from the fall out.

I am only interested in rigorous honesty and sustained change. That's my boundary, my standard for an intimate relationship, and my expectation of any man in my life that I would choose to marry. Am I expecting too much from him? No - I know he can't give me this now, maybe ever, so I don't expect this from him at all. But we won't have a relationship, much less a marriage, without it. Period.

I think you are doing great - you are honest with yourself, you are working on acceptance (not an easy feat, I have to make a point of 'acceptance' every day, hoping it becomes more ingrained some day) and you are trying to do the right thing. There is nothing wrong with having standards. I read in the "Why do they do that"? to set the bar unusually high for men like this, and then demand nothing less than sustained change over a period of years. If you see less than you demand, brush the dust off your feet and leave. Dr. Laura says, "Always follow your smarts, not your fears"

trapeze

I do think the biggest surprise to me is how little cessation of drinking did for our marriage. I thought when my husband came out of rehab that we would embark on this wonderful journey of mutual self-discovery and rebuilding. I know that some people have this type of experience, but it has not been mine. My husband feels better, but our marriage has not improved in any meaningful way. The first year and a half of sobriety has been all about him. I am so fatigued from it all that I don't know if I want to invest the time and energy in any more years. It sounds like others have had the same experience.

When I read posts by people who have only invested a few months in a relationship with an active or newly recovering alcoholic, I just want to tell them to run for the hills! The future is even more unpredictable than in other relationships. But everyone has to make their own decision.

BobbyJ

From what I have experianced over the past few months is
that I was un-educated on alcoholism and un-aware of the damage
it has caused to ME, MY MIND and MY KIDS..

At first, I was excited and thought a $10 Grand, 28 day rehab center
was going to be the "MAGIC CURE" for him and our marriage (WRONG ANSWER)

Then he moved away and I was excited and thought a geographical move
was going to be the "MAGIC CURE" for him and our marriage (WRONG ANSWER)

There is NO "MAGIC CURE". Alcoholism is a LIFE TIME diesase!!

They are the only ones who can put MAGIC into their lives/hearts/minds.....
But its never cured..

There is NOTHING MAGICAL going to happen, just because of rehab, money,AA,
counseling, or whatever program they attend...

UNLESS they really want it!

(I was fortunate enough to recently meet a person, with REAL RECOVERY)
There is a HUGE!! differance in attitudes, lifestyles, thinking, behavior, remorsful, loving, compassionate, humble and even physical appearances & hygeine. I believe it was
Gods way of giving me peace and understanding and answering the questions in my
head about the "MIRACLE CURE"....

Even if you read thru some post on SR of the alcoholics side, over time you can
clearly begin to hear/ read the difference in people who are truely recovered.
Recovered inside their hearts & minds, but they will always be alcoholics....


With mine moving away, and just listening
to his phone calls, I have now realized the chaos, that I once lived in...

And I have realized, I will never go back to living like that
I love myself, my life and my kids more than that.

If my RAH, cant do that for himself. I know staying married to him
I would continue to live a very unhappy life, because inside, I want
more than that...

Atleast being by myself, I can be happy, I can
give myself exactly what I need and I can be happy around my kids
and be a better mom to them (without my RAH robbing me of another minute
of my time in this life)

Everytime you think about him or his recovery or his life. Get a note pad
and each day write down how many minutes that you took the time to think about him.
Now compare the time you spent on him with the time you spent on YOU!!
It will blow your mind, how much time you allowed him to rob from you, your kids and your life!!

Yesterday, I went and had lunch with my son who passing thru town.
It was the first time in years, that I could laugh, eat lunch and come
home to a peaceful house. I didnt have a drunk husband, guilt or shame.

Dont waste one more minute on thinking rehab or whatever
is the magic cure...for him or your marriage....

barb dwyer

6 months sober and a car does not cancel out
years of crap.

you have every right to live out being angry
until YOU ... and only YOU ...
feel it's time to get on.

And for ME ..
that just happened when one day I noticed I
wasn't as angry as I had been.

It certainly wasn't washed away
by not completely beater cars
and lots of appearances.

I don't think this is anything other than
more pressure
to move out of your OWN healing timing
and back into what HE wants.

Jaded. Cynical, maybe
but also the voice of someone
who has had to change the steps
of her own dance
to suit someone else
since she discovered
that this was indeed a dance.

*hug*

Don't mean it to sound so ... rough.
Got a headache today and can't seem to mask it.

So please dilute this a bit.

Ladybug0130

Ooh, I'd be careful with the car. If your alcoholic is anything like mine, he will remind you of the car and how "nice" he is every chance he gets!