I guess hitting bottom doesn't work for everyone...
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lovely, KY
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I guess hitting bottom doesn't work for everyone...
Hello
Its been over a month now since I have made my addicted wife leave. I know she has had it very hard and is sometimes very sick due to withdrawals. She has been staying with my adiicted neice's father and his new wife. I believe they let her stay because they get to use her car and have a way to search for drugs with out walking every where. She calls my sister from time to time and used to try to get her to loan her money to get back into her Suboxone program. She would say things like if you give me the money and she does her Suboxone right this time, maybe I will let her come home and not divorce her. I have had no contact with her for over a month now, but these little updates my sister would pass along sometimes made me think maybe she would try to do better. But I have heard things like that form her many times before. Plus she has been hiding out so the divorce papers cannot be served to her.
I guess I thought deep inside maybe, just maybe, in some way she did love me for all these years of marriage and was trying anything to not be divorced. Yesterday, a check came in the mail for her. It was for $42. Its is something she gets each month. When her grandfather passed away years ago he had interest in a small gas well and left a prtion of it to her. So she recieves a small royalty check each month $30-40 dollars or so. I have not given her a singke dollar since she has been gone but she suddenly came to our house yesterday to pick up her check. I just wanted to tear it up, because I knew what she would buy with it. But it was hers and I just gave it to her. I wanted to tell her that I was divorcing her not because I didn't love her but because I could not live like this any more. I wanted a wife to love me as much as I love her, but her love for drugs was always there, always more important than us. But I just didn't say anything and let her leave. The reason I am posting, I guess deep down inside I must have hoped that putting her out, making life very hard for her would some how give her a revalation. maybe she would not want to live this way and find strength to get help. Maybe even somehow love me too. But after she left yesterday with her small check she called my sister and told her about the drugs she had bought with the money, How she now is going to inject them instead of snorting them to get the most bang for the buck. She said she is hiding from the divorce just because she wants to hang onto our insurance as long as she can to go to diff. doctors for drugs.. then she said that she likes drugs and, this is what hurt me most of all, that she is tired of pretending to be someone she is not. The drugs are who she is and she can be free to do them now. free of the worry of the arguments they cause when living with someone who does not do drugs. I guess she must be happy, when she is not between days of withdrawal. And I guess she must not have loved me after all. I thought surely a month without being home, having to live from place to place, go without food from time to time, sell her belongings, and I supoose ( no need to lie to myself here) have sex with other men for pills from time to time. Even an entire month of that has done nothing, In fact according to what she says, made her realize her new philosophy on life that drugs are all she needs and now she doesn't have tp pretend to act like someone who wanted to be better. So I am very disappointed, For not even an entire month did nothing. Thank you for listening and for everyone who things did work out for, I am happy for you. I guess for Her and myself, it just was not meant to end in a happy way. I am just so very sad now, I don't think any more time would matter. She would not have said those things about how wonderful life is with drugs to my sister, She knows she would tell me, so she must not care that I know now. Maybe hitting bottom will work for others and I hope it does. But not even a whole month could help my wife. I hope God helps evryone and heals all your loved ones of their addiction
Michael
Its been over a month now since I have made my addicted wife leave. I know she has had it very hard and is sometimes very sick due to withdrawals. She has been staying with my adiicted neice's father and his new wife. I believe they let her stay because they get to use her car and have a way to search for drugs with out walking every where. She calls my sister from time to time and used to try to get her to loan her money to get back into her Suboxone program. She would say things like if you give me the money and she does her Suboxone right this time, maybe I will let her come home and not divorce her. I have had no contact with her for over a month now, but these little updates my sister would pass along sometimes made me think maybe she would try to do better. But I have heard things like that form her many times before. Plus she has been hiding out so the divorce papers cannot be served to her.
I guess I thought deep inside maybe, just maybe, in some way she did love me for all these years of marriage and was trying anything to not be divorced. Yesterday, a check came in the mail for her. It was for $42. Its is something she gets each month. When her grandfather passed away years ago he had interest in a small gas well and left a prtion of it to her. So she recieves a small royalty check each month $30-40 dollars or so. I have not given her a singke dollar since she has been gone but she suddenly came to our house yesterday to pick up her check. I just wanted to tear it up, because I knew what she would buy with it. But it was hers and I just gave it to her. I wanted to tell her that I was divorcing her not because I didn't love her but because I could not live like this any more. I wanted a wife to love me as much as I love her, but her love for drugs was always there, always more important than us. But I just didn't say anything and let her leave. The reason I am posting, I guess deep down inside I must have hoped that putting her out, making life very hard for her would some how give her a revalation. maybe she would not want to live this way and find strength to get help. Maybe even somehow love me too. But after she left yesterday with her small check she called my sister and told her about the drugs she had bought with the money, How she now is going to inject them instead of snorting them to get the most bang for the buck. She said she is hiding from the divorce just because she wants to hang onto our insurance as long as she can to go to diff. doctors for drugs.. then she said that she likes drugs and, this is what hurt me most of all, that she is tired of pretending to be someone she is not. The drugs are who she is and she can be free to do them now. free of the worry of the arguments they cause when living with someone who does not do drugs. I guess she must be happy, when she is not between days of withdrawal. And I guess she must not have loved me after all. I thought surely a month without being home, having to live from place to place, go without food from time to time, sell her belongings, and I supoose ( no need to lie to myself here) have sex with other men for pills from time to time. Even an entire month of that has done nothing, In fact according to what she says, made her realize her new philosophy on life that drugs are all she needs and now she doesn't have tp pretend to act like someone who wanted to be better. So I am very disappointed, For not even an entire month did nothing. Thank you for listening and for everyone who things did work out for, I am happy for you. I guess for Her and myself, it just was not meant to end in a happy way. I am just so very sad now, I don't think any more time would matter. She would not have said those things about how wonderful life is with drugs to my sister, She knows she would tell me, so she must not care that I know now. Maybe hitting bottom will work for others and I hope it does. But not even a whole month could help my wife. I hope God helps evryone and heals all your loved ones of their addiction
Michael
RIP Sweet Suki
Join Date: Apr 2008
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I'm so sorry you are dealing with this, Michael. I know how difficult it is. You really shouldn't take it personally though, because it really has nothing at all to do with you. She is just doing what addicts do. It doesn't mean she doesn't love you, inasmuch as she is able to love anyone, since she obviously does not love herself.
While this may seem, to you, like it should be her bottom, it may not be her bottom. Some people have a very low bottom. She still has a place to stay, a car, and money from time to time. This is much more than many addicts have, so while it may be a bottom for some, it's really not as bad as it can get.
While this may seem, to you, like it should be her bottom, it may not be her bottom. Some people have a very low bottom. She still has a place to stay, a car, and money from time to time. This is much more than many addicts have, so while it may be a bottom for some, it's really not as bad as it can get.
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: In my sanctuary, my home
Posts: 39,908
My guess would be that she hopes hearing these things will cause you to feel sorry enough for her to step in and try to take care of her. Addicts can be very devious. They play on your sympathies and try to instill guilt so you will finally cave and give them what they want.
If you would really rather not know what is going on with her, then tell your sister to stop forwarding any information. The more you know, the more it upsets you. Again, she is doing what addicts do, and keeping you upset is just part of the game.
If you would really rather not know what is going on with her, then tell your sister to stop forwarding any information. The more you know, the more it upsets you. Again, she is doing what addicts do, and keeping you upset is just part of the game.
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Location: The Jungle
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Michael
I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. I can tell by your post how badly your heart is hurting. Here's the good news that I gleaned out of your post.
Whether she has hit her bottom or not isn't the point. You have. And you are doing something about it. As was said in the posts above, we don't get to decide what their bottom is.....and sometimes it can be really low. But we DO get to decide what OUR bottom is and take action to change.
Although you are feeling terrible pain right now, the pain will ease as you grab hold of the new life you are creating for yourself. Keep taking care of yourself.....and leave her in the hands of her higher power. You are a good, kind man who deserves the same in a life partner.
gentle hugs
I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. I can tell by your post how badly your heart is hurting. Here's the good news that I gleaned out of your post.
Whether she has hit her bottom or not isn't the point. You have. And you are doing something about it. As was said in the posts above, we don't get to decide what their bottom is.....and sometimes it can be really low. But we DO get to decide what OUR bottom is and take action to change.
Although you are feeling terrible pain right now, the pain will ease as you grab hold of the new life you are creating for yourself. Keep taking care of yourself.....and leave her in the hands of her higher power. You are a good, kind man who deserves the same in a life partner.
gentle hugs
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Baghdad
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Originally Posted by Michael395 
Thank you for listening and for everyone who things did work out for, I am happy for you.
I can't think of a worse feeling-initially-to realize that there is nothing you can do. Utterly powerless.
But down the road, working through the process, you will get to a much better place.
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 216
Hi Michael; I'm glad you're here. This board has become my new family and I hope you find as much comfort and wisdom as I am beginning to find.
So sorry that you have to watch your loved one go down that horrible road of addiction. Take good care of yourself and know you are not alone.
You may want to read the sticky "What Addicts Do" at the top of this forum. It has helped me to know that the addict is not the same person I used to know. It kinda made me take my blinders off so I wasn't so shocked when the addictive behavior came lashing out.
Good luck with your recovery journey
So sorry that you have to watch your loved one go down that horrible road of addiction. Take good care of yourself and know you are not alone.
You may want to read the sticky "What Addicts Do" at the top of this forum. It has helped me to know that the addict is not the same person I used to know. It kinda made me take my blinders off so I wasn't so shocked when the addictive behavior came lashing out.
Good luck with your recovery journey
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lovely, KY
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by cynical one
It's not up to you to determine what her bottom is.
It always comes back to acceptance. It gave me such a sense of relief, serenity, and joy when I accepted that my qualifier no longer had to pretend to be someone he wasn’t. He tried hard at times to live in normal society and was just miserable. Once he stopped trying and just lived like a low-life crackhead criminal he was at peace. It wasn’t what I wanted for him, and it wasn’t who I wanted him to be, but how arrogant and egotistical was it for me to want him to be someone he wasn’t? We need to accept people as is/where is.
And, I would set the boundary with your sister that you no longer will listen to anything about your wife.
It always comes back to acceptance. It gave me such a sense of relief, serenity, and joy when I accepted that my qualifier no longer had to pretend to be someone he wasn’t. He tried hard at times to live in normal society and was just miserable. Once he stopped trying and just lived like a low-life crackhead criminal he was at peace. It wasn’t what I wanted for him, and it wasn’t who I wanted him to be, but how arrogant and egotistical was it for me to want him to be someone he wasn’t? We need to accept people as is/where is.
And, I would set the boundary with your sister that you no longer will listen to anything about your wife.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The Jungle
Posts: 5,435
There is no peace in knowing that your wife is a drug addict. Of course there isn't.
There is no peace in the knowledge that my son is a drug addict. There is a tremendous amount of compassion that I feel for anyone whose life has been hijacked by drugs or alcohol. My son is a truly beautiful young man. Yes....he can love. Yes....he feels pain. Yes....he feels shame. But what he can't seem to do is stop picking up. But he's not doing it "to me" or in spite of me or because of me. He's doing it because he is addicted.
I don't stop loving him. I will never stop loving him. But I can't have a front row seat to his self destruction......for my own self preservation. It hurts me to the very core of my being to acknowledge that his addiction can kill him and there's not a damn thing I can do about it. (and believe me.....I've tried just about everything before finally admitting that I was powerless over his addiction or any other human being for that matter.) Being the mother of a drug addict is the last thing I imagined myself to be someday. And I will never give up hope......but hope has no timeline or time limit......otherwise it would be called "expectation".
Yet I can and do find serenity. Does it mean the pain is no longer there? No. It means that I can spend the majority of my time concentrating on what I do have control over. Me. And I can (and do) find happiness. But does that erase the pain? No. I simply have worked hard to develop a method of pain management (without drugs of course). And for me, Naranon has been instrumental in me finding peace and serenity. It may not be for everyone, but it is working for me. They say "it works if you work it" and I believe that.
We do understand your pain, Michael. We're here to support you and help you through the rough days and celebrate the good ones.
I hope you stick around. We care. And you are not alone.
gentle hugs
There is no peace in the knowledge that my son is a drug addict. There is a tremendous amount of compassion that I feel for anyone whose life has been hijacked by drugs or alcohol. My son is a truly beautiful young man. Yes....he can love. Yes....he feels pain. Yes....he feels shame. But what he can't seem to do is stop picking up. But he's not doing it "to me" or in spite of me or because of me. He's doing it because he is addicted.
I don't stop loving him. I will never stop loving him. But I can't have a front row seat to his self destruction......for my own self preservation. It hurts me to the very core of my being to acknowledge that his addiction can kill him and there's not a damn thing I can do about it. (and believe me.....I've tried just about everything before finally admitting that I was powerless over his addiction or any other human being for that matter.) Being the mother of a drug addict is the last thing I imagined myself to be someday. And I will never give up hope......but hope has no timeline or time limit......otherwise it would be called "expectation".
Yet I can and do find serenity. Does it mean the pain is no longer there? No. It means that I can spend the majority of my time concentrating on what I do have control over. Me. And I can (and do) find happiness. But does that erase the pain? No. I simply have worked hard to develop a method of pain management (without drugs of course). And for me, Naranon has been instrumental in me finding peace and serenity. It may not be for everyone, but it is working for me. They say "it works if you work it" and I believe that.
We do understand your pain, Michael. We're here to support you and help you through the rough days and celebrate the good ones.
I hope you stick around. We care. And you are not alone.
gentle hugs
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: mo.
Posts: 15
Michael it scares and upsets me to read your post. I am living the exzact same thing but add 2 babies. It is almost word for word what I am living. Wish you the best! I could write the same thing word for word and its scarry.
Best of luck and stay strong!
Best of luck and stay strong!
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 457
michael, Im so sorry your going through this and I understand the pain your having. I still have problems coming to terms with the same situaion with my AH, I often think was the past 26 years together a scam? was he fake , was I fooled..
what works for me sometimes is to remember the good times, when they were sober..think back (which you indicated in your posts) and remember they were real, real to us, real in loving us, it was real and it was good.
sadly, what is happening to your wife, is also happening to my husband (and many others on here)..thats what addiction does and thats what addicts do.
I too feel quilt, shame, anger and disappointment that he has chosen a life that is just horrible, he too has left to live with people that will never love him nor care for him like I did, but he can continue the pills.
he lost everything, now we are divorcing and he still hasnt hit his rock bottom. I guess that happens and I have to accept it, hard to accept, but
what other choice do we have? keep chasing them? keep trying to fix them?
nothing worked right? nothing changed right?
there is something we can, stop the madness, the madness within ourselves.
the madness that addiction causes us. if they want to live with it, so be it,
but why should we? I know why, because we loved them, we wanted the best for them and we wanted a long happy life together. but michael, they ended our relationship, they made the decision for US by choicing drugs.
all we can do it still hope and pray for them, that they find recovery, that
they dont suffer (as they surely are I know) and that someday they find peace.
for us, we need to also find recovery, we need to take care of ourselves, hard to do I know, but give it time. It took me a long time to focus on myself (although with the divorce thats hard to do) and I still think of him, often, very often. I know they think of us too..its completely normal to think of them, we cant just turn it off, its not that simple when you love someone.
we just will not live with it anymore, remember they made that choice for us.
as far as hearing from people about it, I think it would be a good idea for your recovery to not ask about her or tell people you dont want to hear about her.
For me, in our town, my AH has met up with old friends and they tell me what he has been saying, it hurts me, it hurts deep. So I made the decision to disassociate with our former friends and move on. I will say its difficult, there are times I feel lost and lonely and dont think highly of myself that he is saying things to people and they might agree or talking about it, (which I doubt as the truth eventually comes out) but thats normal after any marriage breakup..but we have to try to step back and let go.
You might want to find a support group for divorced/seperated/widowed people, I have attended some recently and feel connected to the people.
hang in there michael, one day at a time..
what works for me sometimes is to remember the good times, when they were sober..think back (which you indicated in your posts) and remember they were real, real to us, real in loving us, it was real and it was good.
sadly, what is happening to your wife, is also happening to my husband (and many others on here)..thats what addiction does and thats what addicts do.
I too feel quilt, shame, anger and disappointment that he has chosen a life that is just horrible, he too has left to live with people that will never love him nor care for him like I did, but he can continue the pills.
he lost everything, now we are divorcing and he still hasnt hit his rock bottom. I guess that happens and I have to accept it, hard to accept, but
what other choice do we have? keep chasing them? keep trying to fix them?
nothing worked right? nothing changed right?
there is something we can, stop the madness, the madness within ourselves.
the madness that addiction causes us. if they want to live with it, so be it,
but why should we? I know why, because we loved them, we wanted the best for them and we wanted a long happy life together. but michael, they ended our relationship, they made the decision for US by choicing drugs.
all we can do it still hope and pray for them, that they find recovery, that
they dont suffer (as they surely are I know) and that someday they find peace.
for us, we need to also find recovery, we need to take care of ourselves, hard to do I know, but give it time. It took me a long time to focus on myself (although with the divorce thats hard to do) and I still think of him, often, very often. I know they think of us too..its completely normal to think of them, we cant just turn it off, its not that simple when you love someone.
we just will not live with it anymore, remember they made that choice for us.
as far as hearing from people about it, I think it would be a good idea for your recovery to not ask about her or tell people you dont want to hear about her.
For me, in our town, my AH has met up with old friends and they tell me what he has been saying, it hurts me, it hurts deep. So I made the decision to disassociate with our former friends and move on. I will say its difficult, there are times I feel lost and lonely and dont think highly of myself that he is saying things to people and they might agree or talking about it, (which I doubt as the truth eventually comes out) but thats normal after any marriage breakup..but we have to try to step back and let go.
You might want to find a support group for divorced/seperated/widowed people, I have attended some recently and feel connected to the people.
hang in there michael, one day at a time..
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Up and onwards... :)
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Michael, sorry you are going through this trial right now... esp. with your wife saying she LOVES doing drugs... so utterly sad. Everyone is right when they said that it's not about you... it never is about us... --- ;( There may not be a happy ending with your relationship (there might be tho)... HOWEVER... IF YOU want... there WILL be a happy ending for you. (period).
It's the 'separating with love' that's such a hard thing to do, but I know with practice, it will become a reality for our own lives. I picture it as having inner peace and NO guilt of what our addicted loved ones do/or don't do to make themselves well. I know that I am the only one who can change myself... so for today, I'm going to start there. I hope you find the strength and courage to do that as well. We're routing for you!
God Bless...
It's the 'separating with love' that's such a hard thing to do, but I know with practice, it will become a reality for our own lives. I picture it as having inner peace and NO guilt of what our addicted loved ones do/or don't do to make themselves well. I know that I am the only one who can change myself... so for today, I'm going to start there. I hope you find the strength and courage to do that as well. We're routing for you!
God Bless...
The sun still shines
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 472
((((( Michael ))))) The sadness, pain and grief coming from your words is a place many of us frequented. You are in a period of mourning because you finally have to let go of the woman you love, your life together and the loss of the years together still ahead.
When I finally faced the fact that I cannot save my son and had to let him walk the path he chose, I felt as heartsore as when I lost a loved one to death. I saw later that the mourning was a necessary process to go through before I could pick up the pieces and move on and find my own joy again.
It is ok to look at the life you once had together, remember the person she was and mourn the loss of it all. Know that you are not alone and that we are with you in thoughts. The sentence that always stays with me during these times is "life goes on", and it does. Eventually the sun will shine and you will find your own happiness again.
When I finally faced the fact that I cannot save my son and had to let him walk the path he chose, I felt as heartsore as when I lost a loved one to death. I saw later that the mourning was a necessary process to go through before I could pick up the pieces and move on and find my own joy again.
It is ok to look at the life you once had together, remember the person she was and mourn the loss of it all. Know that you are not alone and that we are with you in thoughts. The sentence that always stays with me during these times is "life goes on", and it does. Eventually the sun will shine and you will find your own happiness again.
Last edited by Sunshine2; 02-27-2011 at 09:11 PM. Reason: clarity
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She loved you with the capacity her illness allowed her to. She is a very sick woman. There is nothing you can do to get her to want to see the value in her life and that she IS loved.
That is the part that pains me the most about the addict/alcoholic. To know that they cannot see their own worth or that they are surrounded by love is the part that stabs me the hardest.
Nothing I say or do can make him see that. So I think how awful it is to walk around thinking this is the best life that he can give himself, someone so bright and full of gifts.
But you know what? It makes the beauty of my life a bit clearer for me because I know it is a gift not to be squandered. I appreciate that I can live in my own skin as hard as it is sometimes, I value it and those around me too much to destory myself. Sad that they cannot do the same when they are so far gone.
Its ok to grieve. And give yourself credit for lasting as long and trying as hard as you did. You did so because you love her and she is lucky for that.
Life is long and I pray the best for both of you.
That is the part that pains me the most about the addict/alcoholic. To know that they cannot see their own worth or that they are surrounded by love is the part that stabs me the hardest.
Nothing I say or do can make him see that. So I think how awful it is to walk around thinking this is the best life that he can give himself, someone so bright and full of gifts.
But you know what? It makes the beauty of my life a bit clearer for me because I know it is a gift not to be squandered. I appreciate that I can live in my own skin as hard as it is sometimes, I value it and those around me too much to destory myself. Sad that they cannot do the same when they are so far gone.
Its ok to grieve. And give yourself credit for lasting as long and trying as hard as you did. You did so because you love her and she is lucky for that.
Life is long and I pray the best for both of you.
lesa
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: parkersburg wv
Posts: 157
I know what you mean i though he bottom was loosing everything ,not just talking money and things,,he lived on the streets and didnot shower ..for him he likes to shower and .couldnt walk and more ..will he still uses..
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 234
When my son told me how much he loved doing drugs it tore my heart out, but it was the truth. When I stopped making it all about me and how much it hurt me I was able to walk away. When he knew I was serious about living my life without him if drugs were what he chose that is when his eyes opened. Have you heard the saying if you love something set it free if it comes back to it was yours but if it doesn't it was never yours to begin with? Maybe it's time to set her free and save yourself. She will do what she is going to do no matter what you do. Sending prayers your way across the bluegrass.
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hope Land
Posts: 666
I hope you find some comfort with everyones support here, we all understand a broken heart that comes when you love an addict. My husband (ex) was the addict in my family, I had a hardtime getting a grasp around "he doesn't love me or he would not be doing this", we have two sons together and onething I did know was, he loved those boys with every inch...once those drugs got a hold of him he would not stop even for them.
It is so hard to understand bottoms, my exah did robbery X 3, there was a very good chance that he was going to be going to jail for a longtime, he got off with a house arrest. I was so happy, thinking this scared him so bad, it was going to be the end of it. While I was talking with his lawyer after this, he told me to get out of this marriage, that my husband was a serious bad addict and he could guarentee me that this was not going to be the end of it...no no I said this really scared him straight, hit his bottom! A week later I recieved a call, he was back in jail, broke his house arrest, was at a crack house at 2 in the morning. So now he has lost his family, home, business, been in jail, overdosed, been stabbed, hit by a car purposely, living on the streets and still yet to hit his bottom.
I am sure you have done everything possible you thought you could to make her stop, it is OK to rid yourself free of it, feel no guilt, do what ever you need to do to make peace in your life. It is very wise as the others have mentioned, to tell your sister not to inform you about her goings on. To bad your sister would not break the contact with her as well, but that is for her to decide.
Take Care,
Rose
It is so hard to understand bottoms, my exah did robbery X 3, there was a very good chance that he was going to be going to jail for a longtime, he got off with a house arrest. I was so happy, thinking this scared him so bad, it was going to be the end of it. While I was talking with his lawyer after this, he told me to get out of this marriage, that my husband was a serious bad addict and he could guarentee me that this was not going to be the end of it...no no I said this really scared him straight, hit his bottom! A week later I recieved a call, he was back in jail, broke his house arrest, was at a crack house at 2 in the morning. So now he has lost his family, home, business, been in jail, overdosed, been stabbed, hit by a car purposely, living on the streets and still yet to hit his bottom.
I am sure you have done everything possible you thought you could to make her stop, it is OK to rid yourself free of it, feel no guilt, do what ever you need to do to make peace in your life. It is very wise as the others have mentioned, to tell your sister not to inform you about her goings on. To bad your sister would not break the contact with her as well, but that is for her to decide.
Take Care,
Rose
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