mise06

I believe that its up to me to get myself clean, god is not going to do that for me. So a greater power has to restore me to sanity. Im not sure if i believe this. Is it not through will power, perserverance, time and being clean that i will be restored to sanity.

How can i move to step 3 if i dont believe step 2?

Taking5

Please re-read step 2. No where it that does it say "believed". It says "came to believe". This is an on-going process, not a singular event.

What does your sponsor say about this? Have you discussed this with him/her? Do you have a sponsor?

mise06

Hi dgillz,

Thanks for your reply.

No i dont have a sponsor. I am from a small town and there is No NA in my area. There is an AA which i attended but i knew alot of ppl there and didnt really feel like i could share honestly, plus alcohol is not my problem i am a drug addict.

My mother is an alcoholic and i have several family members in AA so i am reading the reflections book and read literature from AA etc..

I was never one for patience, i supposed i want to be fixed, or to fix myself immediately and things on the long term seem hard to even think about. Ill keep your words in my head (they make sense) came to believe = ongoing processs. Thank you

Taking5

I am a drug addict too, but my DOC is alcohol.

The NA basic text and the program, the steps, etc, are all lifted right from AA so other than substituting your DOC, there is very little difference.

Also it is anonymous for a reason. If you meet somebody you know there, what are they gonna do, tell everyone in town what you've been doing and saying at an AA meeting? After he would be "outing" himself at the same time. You also don't have to share every little detail at AA/NA, you only have to intimately share with your sponsor. Even then you have to admit "the exact nature" of your wrongs, not the dates, places, people and other gory details. In fact many people don't even share this with their sponsor sometimes it is with a pastor, priest, etc.

I'd give AA another try, share what you feel comfortable sharing, and try to find someone you trust to be your sponsor.

Good luck.

Kjell

Hi Mise-

I think you may need to go back to step 1. If you don't believe you're powerless over your addiction and that all you need is better or more willpower or that you can simply think your way out of your addiction, than you clearly don't have step 1 down.

We admitted that we were powerless over our addiction, that our lives had become unmanageable.

Try this-
Make a list of some of the crazy, stupid, unhealthy, reckless (etc...) actions you did while high/drunk.

Then make a similar list of all the crazy, stupid, unhealthy, reckless (etc...) actions you did while high/drunk.

Go ahead and post these on this thread (no need to write your life's story, just some examples).

Kjell

Kjell

Hi Mise-

I'm totally not making sense in my post above (something told me to come back and re-read my reply). Sorry.

What I meant to say is to make a list of crap you did while drunk/high and then make a list of some crap you did 100% sober.

Anyway, maybe I need to quit while I'm ahead

glitter

Step 2 and 3 (mostly 2) was impossibly difficult for me as well.

We came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

As I was talking about it with my sponsor she said, if there was a higher power that is looking out for me what characteristics would that power be made up of?

This was easier for me to grasp. As we sat at her dining room table she patiently waited, I wrote down those characteristics that are important to me....and for me it had mostly to do with what I believe to be right or wrong and things I personally value.

I wrote down things like tolerant, non-judgemental, open-minded, loving, sense of humor, available, beautiful and so on.

When I was finished she had me read them to her. When I finished reading, she said that's it! That's your Higher Power.

For Step 3 it was someone here at SR who wrote something that helped me with this. This SR member suggested that if one has a problem with the word or concept of "God" to replace "God" with Good" in the readings. So I did that and this is what my step 3 looks like.....

We made a decsion to turn our will and our lives over to the care of Good, as we understood Good.

Kinda weird but it totally works for me!

It's an ongoing process to see Good working in my life. It's the little things that I'm noticing more and more. I'm finally figuring out that the more I stop fighting it, the more available it becomes. What will be.....will be and is meant to be.

This doesn't mean that I am helpless though. I still have to make choices and do the right thing.

So far, so Good.

Gmoney

Hi Mise,

Welcome to SR.

In NA (or AA, for that matter), sponsorship is crucial. I say this because without sponsorship (or the help of the fellowship) we end up trying to do this thing called recovery on our own. Sure...we are responsible for our own recovery and it is true that God (whatever we understand God to be) will not do everything for us...but part of our responsibility involves accepting the help that's available and doing something different. I mean...if I had not exhausted all attempts to recover on my own, I would've never came to NA. Will power or "strength" wasn't enough for me and I needed help to get time and learn how to STAY clean.

I emphasize the need for and acceptance of help because these are some of the foundations of the 1st Step. Without help from a sponsor or the fellowship, many newer members fail to understand the paradox of surrendering to win...they fail to fully understand powerlessness. When we get honest and take a good hard look at what got us to where we are, the evidence is usually overwhelming that we can't/couldn't control our addiction with self-will, positive thinking or perserverance. Until we are able to admit and accept complete defeat, we are almost certain to "try it again" on our own. So I agree with Kjell...a review of Step 1 may be neccessary before tackling the concepts of insanity and restoration. Most of us cannot get the 2nd step if we haven't got the 1st step.

Another thing you may want to consider is that Step 2 says that a power "greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity," it doesn't say God will. Although many members refer to this "power" as God, our program tells us that we can call it whatever we choose. The power that restores you can be the group (fellowship) or the program itself. And as Dgillz mentioned, being restored isn't an event. Since we didn't become addicts overnight, being restored can be a lifetime process.

The 2nd Step is about hope. If you want to believe the 2nd Step...all you have to do is look around a meeting at all the members that found recovery.

G

Missybuns

step 2 also says "could restores us to sanity"...it does not say it will

Like has already been shared, when we accept our powerlessness over our addiction we are then ready to seek a power greater than our own (which is a change in our thinking, we weren't doing this before) to help restore us to sanity.

After all, it's insane to continue down the same path (doing drugs) over and over again as though we can control it and in denial that it is progressively getting worse.

I agree it is crucial to seek the guidance and empathy from a sponsor. Someone who has experienced each step can help you along your path to freedom from active addiction.

There is an important part in the step 2 section of our Basic Text:
"Some of us didn't take this step seriously at first; we passed over it with a minimum of concern, only to find the next steps would not work until we worked Step Two."

Good for you for asking a very good question.

Peace,
Missy

richardkornman

You know you are powerless over drugs - step 1. Therefore anything outside of yourself is a higher power than yourself. So you can have any higher power as long as it isn't yourself. So grab anything and surrender. Don't get caught up in the intellectualizing your disease. Don't worry about sharing in the meeting. You have nothing to offer in your early days. Just GET TO A MEETING AND LISTEN for the first 3 months. You need their help. Go get it this is a program of action. Go to any meeting you can No matter what meeting!. Alcohol is a drug. Go to a meeting and listen. Get in the solution and out of the problem.

ynmamflm

[QUOTE=dgillz;2872697]Please re-read step 2. No where it that does it say "believed". It says "came to believe". This is an on-going process, not a singular event.

Came to believe would indicate a point in time. Although, came to believe, is a process to a point, you must work thru this to a point where you believe in a higher power. Mine is as should be "Christ" yours may be those around you that help you, love you and care for you.

MuskyAddict

Step 2 gave me Hope! When I looked around and saw all the people at the meetings staying clean, I knew I could too. Went from complete hopelessness to a profound hope. The Power Greater than myself was the the fellowship at first. I have no understanding of what God is, I just know praying helps. Someone told me to pray so I prayed. I was desperate and I wanted the madness to stop.

CarolD

MuskyAddict.....
welcome to our recovery community

drebyone

The reason why wqe cant get clean or relapse is BECUZ of self will run riot. Believe that a power greater than yourself can restore U to sanity..
Do you bellieve that the Oceans and the Seas are greater than U?

drebyone

Welcome to SR.

In NA (or AA, for that matter), sponsorship is crucial. I say this because without sponsorship (or the help of the fellowship) we end up trying to do this thing called recovery on our own. Sure...we are responsible for our own recovery and it is true that God (whatever we understand God to be) will not do everything for us...but part of our responsibility involves accepting the help that's available and doing something different. I mean...if I had not exhausted all attempts to recover on my own, I would've never came to NA. Will power or "strength" wasn't enough for me and I needed help to get time and learn how to STAY clean.

I emphasize the need for and acceptance of help because these are some of the foundations of the 1st Step. Without help from a sponsor or the fellowship, many newer members fail to understand the paradox of surrendering to win...they fail to fully understand powerlessness. When we get honest and take a good hard look at what got us to where we are, the evidence is usually overwhelming that we can't/couldn't control our addiction with self-will, positive thinking or perserverance. Until we are able to admit and accept complete defeat, we are almost certain to "try it again" on our own. So I agree with Kjell...a review of Step 1 may be neccessary before tackling the concepts of insanity and restoration. Most of us cannot get the 2nd step if we haven't got the 1st step.

Another thing you may want to consider is that Step 2 says that a power "greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity," it doesn't say God will. Although many members refer to this "power" as God, our program tells us that we can call it whatever we choose. The power that restores you can be the group (fellowship) or the program itself. And as Dgillz mentioned, being restored isn't an event. Since we didn't become addicts overnight, being restored can be a lifetime process.

The 2nd Step is about hope. If you want to believe the 2nd Step...all you have to do is look around a meeting at all the members that found recovery.

G
_____

Gmoney

Hey!!! I knew those words sounded familiar! They should...I wrote them.

ethanol0

Friend, you will need a certain amount of will power and perseverance in any case, but all the will power you can muster won't solve the long-term problem of Alcoholism and/or Addiction ... IF that's what you have ... because the nature of the problem is that it's CAUSED by Will Power.

Didn't you read that in the Big Book yet?? As archaic as the writing may be, this is a theme that is touched on several times, and emphasized, Will Power cannot solve the problem, and later it's explained that our problem consists of Self Will and Will Power gone berserk and carried to extreme. How can you develop LESS will power? LESS Self? Hmmm?

Last question you asked, can you move to 3 if you don't believe 2? No and yes. It depends on your willingness vs. unwillingness. Probably no alcoholic thoroughly believes in God and all that entails -- even if they think they do -- until after some time working the other steps. Look at all the AAs who say they believe but live in a state of fear.

The chapter "We Agnostics" is not written for "those other people". It's for everyone.

It's almost certain you WILL move on to Steps 3 and 4 and more before you REALLY come to believe in God, and maybe you will always entertain some doubts, it's up to you how much entertaining of doubts you wish to enjoy, I prefer to entertain people and pets. Eventually, your own progress and experience and familiarity with Self vs. Spirit should probably make you a deeper believer. Here's what I mean by that:

To make it simpler, deal with the following questions in brief (which are posed in the Book in some form).

The reason alcoholics cannot stay sober on their own, by use of their willpower and ego, according to "AA doctrine", is that the problem is human ego a.k.a. Self (a.k.a. "You" and "Me"). Self-Will Run Riot, they call it, in the Step Three section.

So the cause of your problem -- Self -- cannot very well be the source of your solution ... Can it? Think about it.

Does the above make sense to you?

This is precisely what makes alcoholism/addiction so baffling. Conversely, if you really CAN stop and stay stopped with Will Power, then you probably do not have alcoholism/addiction, or you only have temporary physical dependence, maybe some mental dependence. The Book talks about such a person, the non-alcoholic who is a mere "heavy drinker" who may even need hospitalization, but who can quit if Life or loved ones push them to quit.

That's basically what the First Step is saying, especially when the First Step is "informed" by the chapter on Step Three. I would not re-write the Big Book but we can talk about it like it's 2011 instead of 1937, right?
The inability to stop and stay stopped using only Ego-Power, that's the message in Chapter 2: There is a Solution and Chapter 3: More about Alcoholism.

It's also a rephrasing of the A. and B. in the "Three Pertinent Ideas" that we read at meetings.

Thing is, this stuff explaining Ego is actually defined in Chap 5 after A, B, and C, where Step 3 begins, and My Ego was more difficult to comprehend from a detached perspective than getting an idea of God I could live with.


So if Ego (you) is the problem, then you need some kind of Power greater than You, alone, or even "a group of humans". Our Ego is not the totality of who we are. Do you believe that? Even in Freudian terms, Ego is only one aspect of the Mind, and Sigmund Freud denied the existence of any Spirit, preferring "Id" which is like "animal instincts" (I think).

But Freud's student, Karl Jung, did believe that Man possessed a Spirit or Spiritual Nature. (Karl Jung is the famous doctor psychiatrist who treated the man who helped another drunk and that 2nd drunk sought out his old college buddy Bill Wilson.)

So do YOU possess a spiritual nature? Do you appreciate beauty? Do you have a faint recollection of Love? Can you remember laughter (as Led Zeppelin asked)? You could ask yourself similar questions.

If so, then this could be called a Spiritual Nature which exists alongside your Ego, and if that's true, then it's shadow is probably evidence of the substance of the "Sunlight of the Spirit" that Bill Wilson wrote about when he was discussing Resentments.

In my case, my real clear opportunity to begin to comprehend the meaning of "Ego" in contrast to "Spirit" came during the writing steps, AFTER I had made the Step Three decision to trust Spirit.

For the sake of argument --- that means, try this idea on for size, whether you fully believe it or not --- if the Sunlight of the Spirit is who we mean by "God", and you are aware of that Sunlight, then you already DO believe in some kind of a God of Mankind or Spiritual Force, or at least you have access to a belief in God. The difference is this is not limited to some dogmatic church-y interpretation of the idea of God. Instead, you may believe in some other concept that appeals to you, a Universal Spirit or whatever ... Love.

This, believe it or not, is actually in tune with early Christian concepts, as the term "God is Love" appears somewhere in the book of John. I'm more of an AA member than a bible scholar -- I don't consider myself a Christian at all, and my background is a Jewish-Agnostic family, but some of the ideas of that Jewish Rabbi were SOLID and TIMELESS, imo.

If you are 100% unwilling to consider these ideas, then you are hopeless now, until drinking/drugs and your alcoholism (assuming you have that syndrome) softens you up a bit. However, few people are that unwilling to accept these open-minded possibilities.

So you don't have to "keep it simple" per se, but SIMPLIFY your own concepts. A lot of people coming to AA are way more dogmatic than the Program. Don't let your dogmatic ideas become a roadblock, be more flexible, as the AA founders promoted flexibility, and choose simple concepts that you can accept.

If you take this kind of non-dogmatic approach, it's a piece of cake to decide if you are willing to let that Spiritual Force run your life and to abandon your Self. Self ain't working too good for you anyhow, is it? Self is driving you to drink/drug. It then makes sense to move on to the next section where we identify (in order to later be rid of) various "manifestations of Self", such as anger when our Will (our wants) are threatened or harmed, and fear of what is going to happen to you and me in some imaginary situation. These mental states, they say, reinforce our Self and block our spiritual nature.

I hope I'm making a little bit of sense.

ethanol0

I see Gmoney's comment to someone on another thread:

That was not my intention. For the record, I am an AA member who is also an addict. Though the wording is somewhat archaic, once I was able to comprehend what the AA Book was saying to me, and how it applied to me, I found it very valuable on several key points, such as "playing God" (judgmental, imagining the future and fearing that, acting as though my thought power -- worry, wishing for stuff with a self-pitiful sigh -- could alter the future) and gradually came to understand the nature of my Will and Ego.

I didn't post here to be superior or anti-NA. Thanks.

Addendum: by the time you have finished the readings and "opening" around Step Two, then "God could and would if he were sought" implies to me that God will restore me to sanity, at least sanity with regards to drinking and drugging, I will regain the ability to say "no" easily, one day at a time, and say "yes" to life, so long as I continue to participate in this process.

Gmoney

Wow....I still thought this was the Narcotics Anonymous forum. :rotfxko

Since a statement of mine from another thread was taken out of context and included in this discussion, I am curious as to why it was deemed necessary to expound so heavily on the AA program in the NA forum to a poster who hasn't responded in two months.

Although I found what you wrote interesting and fundamentally in-line with what NA teaches about Step 2.....

oh...never mind....lol

dalin

Man,wish folks would pick a program and work it,not insult programs that they are not members of...