FindingPeace1

This is an alanon phrase I have heard and I have been mulling it over.
In a normal relationship, you give your partner leeway to be human and understand that you are both doing your best.
In an A relationship, you give and give and give and don't know when to stop giving leeway and when you complain or pullback the giving, the A says, "give me a break, I'm only human" and you feel guilt.

So, we don't have to accept the unacceptable and if we pull away far enough we might be able to ask ourselves what the unaccepatable is!

I know each of us has to decide that for ourselves, but when you have gotten lost in giving leeway, you can't see unacceptable from a mile away.
So let's brainstorm, eh?

What is the unacceptable to you?

I'll start.

Lying (especially repeatedly and with little or forced acknowledgement and apology)
Unwillingness to own his behavior
Unwillingness to acknowldege the seriousness of his behaviour
Shut downs, silent treatment, meanness, sarcasm, fatalism (especially on a regular basis)
Hiding alcohol or other secret things.

LexieCat

Lying (about anything serious and/or things I have a right to know) (I think everyone lies occasionally about unimportant stuff, though that can be pathological with some people)

Refusal to take responsibility for his own actions--expecting me to fix things all the time

Any kind of abuse (verbal, emotional, physical) (does not include occasional "below the belt" verbal shots in the heat of an argument)

Refusal to carry his share of the load for no good reason (illness, temporary issue being addressed)

I do have an issue with calling something "unacceptable", though. I feel I need to "accept" whatever is, whether I like it or not. I don't have to choose to live with it, though--and I know that's what you mean by "unacceptable".

Tuffgirl

What do you do if your recovering alcoholic spouse doesn't "get" these things? Does AA teach these things - really? Because I feel like I am facing the unacceptable BUT not out of spite or malice but out of ignorance. Just plain cluelessness. He never had to grow up, so didn't learn these things like most of us have already learned. He says he wants to "be a better man and a better husband" but then does nothing. But AA is telling him to focus on himself right now and he seems to be taking that to the nth degree (which intellectually I understand but emotionally think it really hard on the family - we're left sitting amidst the pieces of a broken life while he gets to trot off on his pink cloud)

I know my choices are my choices. And it is my choice to stay gone or go back banking on the potential instead of living the reality. But yeesh - is there any hope??!!! Do they ever grow up and "get" it?

this is where I am at today! Banging away.......

keepinon

It's no longer acceptable behavior for me to do most of the emotional "work" a healthy relationship requires..crumbs are not acceptable forms of affection

StarCat

I always viewed the word "unacceptable" as shorthand for "Things I'm won't accept in my life."
I mean, the Serenity Prayer even has the line "Accept the things I cannot change."
I cannot change who he is, but I can change my reactions, and I can change how I relate to him, and I can change whether or not I talk to him at all.
So I always feel like if I run across something "unacceptable" I have to change it so that it can be "acceptable to me" - whether that means altering my behavior, working through why it bothers me in the first place, or removing myself from the situation entirely.


Things that I will never accept in my life, ever again:
Abuse. Verbal, emotional, monetary, physical, I don't care, they're all so last year and I want nothing to do with them any more.
Note: Abuse to me is different than saying something regretful in a heated argument, or the semi-playful cutting comments people say sometimes, etc. It's not an act (anyone can do that), it's a state of life for the abuser (and it starts out innocently enough when the unsuspecting victim joins the relationship), and I have been teaching myself the warning signs.

Manipulation. I will not tolerate self-centered manipulation with only one person's interests at heart, or with intent to harm.
The more friendly kind that has other people's best interests at heart as well (I'd call it "political manipulation" except anymore I'd say the politicians use the selfish version - but I hope you know what I mean?) doesn't bother me.


I'm still working on the rest, but that's my big ones.

LexieCat

Tg,

Some do eventually "get it" and some don't. AA does not teach relationship skills, as such. It teaches the person to live sober and not to harm themselves or others. Now, some of the relationship stuff isn't objective "harm" (although it sure feels like it to you--and with good reason), but it still might not make for a great marriage or intimate relationship.

If you want to give him a chance, my suggestion is that you let him get his recovery from alcoholism--several months, at least--maybe longer depending on your patience and what you are willing to live with, and then suggest some relationship/marriage counseling. That will go much better if he is sober and no longer battling his disease.

wicked

For me, getting it was taking responsibility.
Most would say "responsibility? not for me, all i have to do is stay sober."
for me responsibility set me free, cause now, whatever happened came down to me and my choices.
no one else could be blamed and since it was down to me, i could change my life.
I hope i explained this well, i really wanted to share this.

also unacceptable to me:
disappearing.....no calls, no texts, no reasons.
feels like abandonment and i am tired of that.

Beth

Thumper

Less then 18mos ago I was not able to write this list - or a list of what I needed from a partner. I tried and couldn't do it. Why? Because I was busy detaching - ignoring - denying - trying to figure out what strategies I could embrace, what mental twists I needed to find, in order to accept these unacceptable things and make a life around them.

Unacceptable to me...

Under-employed or unemployed
Emotional Manipulation (working to be able to recognize this faster)
Unreliable - with both big and small things
Alcoholism
Financial irresponsibility
Refusing to accept personal responsibility for actions/life/choices
Lack of self determination
Actions or words that undermine family/relationship/shared goals
Belittling
Not respecting my personal boundaries
Lack of family involvement
Abuse
Infidelity

Look at me go now. I could keep going. There may never be anyone to live up to it all, lol.

FindingPeace1

Some. rarely. if they really want to.
I think that's the purpose for the "what's unacceptable for you?" discussion - because sitting around hoping and waiting isn't serving us.

FindingPeace1

Put another way, these "unacceptable" things could be flipped and described in the postive.

For example, I deserve to express my concerns and be heard.
I deserve to be told the truth.
I deserve to have a partner that grows emotionally with me.
I deserve to be talked to with respect.
I deserve a partner that honors himself and myself enough to own his faults and work to change them.
I deserve real apologies.

TakingCharge999

FindingPeace I am amazed as you have grown so much in such little time. Hats off to you.

Thanks for this thread...

UNACCEPTABLE:

-lies. any lies.
-earns less than me. yes it matters.
-really bad spelling indicating he has not read a single book in his life
-mocks spirituality
-treats waiters (or anyone) badly
-self destructs smoking, eating fast food all the time, drinking, taking drugs
-discriminates people

I am so glad it is my choice no longer to hang around with such people let alone sleep with them or plan my life around them.
I was so wrong!! I am so glad I have more clarity now.

gajeh702

OMG...I broke into tears reading all this...I'm so torn! I lost my best and only friend today. How can someone who seems so good for me and my kids turn around and be the biggest jerk! He doesn't acknowledge he has the problem, but his non-problem is my BIG problem! We had our first baby together 5 months ago, and my life with him feels like it's going down the toilet! He drinks every day (ok, minus 3 days this year with 2 of them because he was sick). It's getting progressively worse, but he doesn't see it...of course not, he's having the time of his life. He's weird that he doesn't get hung over (runs in the family), so he takes pride in the fact that he can drink his friends into the ground. I don't drink and so I just don't get it. Don't get that it makes him feel better, don't get the taste, the fun of it....just don't get it. I love him, but hate who he is now. We've been married since 2006, we each have a child with another and now share one together. I'm returning to school and he's been out of work...hopefully he'll start a job soon, but I fear he'll lose it getting caught with DUI....he hasn't ever gotten caught yet, but it's only time....so lost.....

dogluvah

Hi, Tuffgirl. If he has always been a child as a result of his upbringing, he won't be growing up. He can do a little better and try and make better choices, but this is it. This is him. At his core, he'll aways be childish.

He won't change into Mr. Super Responsible, take charge man, A type personality. It won't happen. You can't change a personality defect. What do we know about children? They're selfish and take the path of least resistance. So, sure he's gonna eat it up when AA tells him to focus on himself. He's very comfortable with that concept. When he finally stops drinking, he'll just be a sober immature individual.

His mama babied him at some point, or all the time while growing up and he didn't break away from her. This is the product.

LexieCat

This is nonsense. Alcoholics aren't immature because their mamas babied them.

Most alcoholics stop maturing around the time they started drinking. The younger they were, the less mature they are. In essence, alcoholism "freezes" them at the level of maturity where they were when they started drinking. Hence, many alcoholics are like teenagers--whiny, self-centered, have a sense of entitlement, etc. A lot of the recovery work alcoholics do is to become mature, responsible adults. Of course, not every "dry" alcoholic has worked a thorough recovery program.

FindingPeace1

Welcome, Gajeh!
I'm sorry this is happening to you. I suggest you start a new thread in the general forum so that your story isn't buried in here. There are lots of folks willing to support you here!

TC - I loved the part about being unkind to others 'cuz every time my A would get snotty to someone (generally some business person on the phone - like the phone company or insurance) I'd be hyperventilating! LOL!

On the other hand, while I have learned and grown ALOT here, I also recognize I am split. I am separated and doing phone counseling with my husband...and the...(what came to mind was little girl...that's deep) part of me that is still working with him does not feel anything that my intellect knows. It is like the part of me that is learning all this isn't yet sinking in to the all of me.
We talk very little now and I know I need to move on, but I can't seem to do anything in that regard.
My learning is happening on another planet from the real world one of being married to someone that crosses my boundaries.
Perhaps I just need time to process. That's a nice way of looking at it.
I feel immobolized to divorce.

Let it be known my mother kicked my father out and then they stayed married, living totally separate lives for decades, until my dad's new partner FORCED them to do the paperwork. They were friendly and dad came for holidays and birthdays. Here I am playing it all out again.
Emotionally disconnected and in hiding!
D'OH!
I don't know how to push forward to integrate it all.
peace

dogluvah

Lexie...I'm not talking about the effects of alcohol on a person. I'm talking about personalities. If the person has been immature in their formative years, they're not going to suddenly turn into a mature personality/being. They can engage in mature behavior, but underneath, they are always going to be what they formed into during childhood.

If this posters husband was always immature, he's not going to turn into a mature person when he stops drinking. He will be MORE mature when he has his alcoholism under control, but if he is a mama's boy, selfish, immature personality, that won't be changing.

That is what the dating process if for. If you don't want to live with a certain type of person, don't marry them.

I believe in God, so anything is possible with Him. However, in the absence of miracles, our personality has already been "set" when we reach adulthood.

Bolina

Or don't even begin dating them, perhaps?

I find it tragic to think that personality is fixed, dogluvah. Do you have any research to support that, becauee I would find that very interesting to read? I would imagine that there would be no requirement for therapists or the like if that were the case....

Accepting the unacceptable. I did that a lot. I somehow thought that I could change the outcome by making him be someone he wasn't. Then I changed what I found unacceptable (i.e. accepted what I never believed I would). Then I got into recovery and realized that I had a choice.

I do agree with Lexie, though. I had to accept another for who they are, me for who I am at whatever point in time and accept the situation for what it is right at that moment. If that is all positive, then great. If not, then I need to have a long hard look at that is going on. Perhaps the previous para shoud be about tolerating the intolerable?

dogluvah

Bolina, I don't mean to offend you, but are you kidding me?? There is nothing but research and theory on this. Ever read Freud? Nearly all, if not ALL, the major personality theories used by major theorists in the field of psychology acknowledge Freuds insight and work on personality theory. What I posted about personality is generally accepted in the field.

Start with Freud, there is much to read there, then report back to me your findings.

The internet is a good place to start reading. When you want research data though, you need to access peer-reviewed journal articles and texts for the information.

Bolina

Freud is almost entirely discredited these days, apart from a few diehards. As you will know from your studies.

dogluvah

I'm sorry, but that isn't true. Only portions of Freud's theories have been strongly debated. Again, his personality theory which holds that personality is formed in large part from our childhood experiences and upbringing is widely accepted.

HIS Psychoanalytic theory, while it may not be used exclusively, is almost ALWAYS incorporated into a psychologist's treatment therapy in some fashion.

Freud was considered one of the greatest geniuses of all time.

As I know from my studies...Have you ever heard the phrase, "you're being "anal"? Where do you think it comes from?

Please don't take this the wrong way, Bolina, but if it were possible, I'd like to see you go up against Freud...LOL.