Floss

:codiepolice:

I slipped off my codie wagon today....and the question I keep asking myself is why? Just a bit of background... I broke up with my ex ADF (alcoholic defacto) 18 months ago. It came as a sudden shock. Things were going really well, or so I thought. We were living together, with our daughter and my other four children. He was staying sober (except for two one night slips which he took away from the home as my home was alcohol free) and we were getting along really well. The fact that he had been mostly sober for almost two years was a miracle as he had such a chronic problem with alcohol in the past, no-one thought he would ever stop drinking. Then on August 14th, 2009, I came home from a meeting to find him drinking beer in our home which was out of the ordinary as he hadn't been drinking and he had always respected the alcohol free boundary at home.

He told me not to worry as he was only drinking beer and not the "devil bourbon" as he calls it as he gets alcohol induced psychosis when he drinks and can become violent. My Al-Anon kicked in and I went about my business and all seemed okay for a while. I went to bed around midnight. At 12.30pm, he came into the bedroom. He was off his face, but he wasn't behaving aggressively. At 1am, he came back in and he'd lost it by then. He was very abusive, violent and luckily I had my mobile phone under my pillow as my HP had told me to take it to bed that night and I was able to call the police. He was arrested and charged and that was the end of our family unit. He left and never came back.

He is drinking chronically again, lost his job and will soon lose his house as he's living off the equity. His alcoholism has progressed to such a point that he hardly sees his daughter anymore.

DD is four years of age and is a mini version of her dad. She looks like him, she speaks like him and her mannerisms are like his. She's adorable. She loves him so much. I was always worried about her little heart breaking if her dad stopped seeing her as the sober person that he is has a way of reaching deep into your soul. My heart was well and truly broken into pieces after we separated and I'm not sure whether I'll ever be able to let someone in again or that I'll ever get over him. He's way deep into her soul too. When he's with her, he gets on her level and makes her feel as though she is the most important person in the world. You can see it in her eyes and the love between them is noticeable to everyone.

Last night DD asked to see her dad. I told her she wasn't able to right now. She asked why. I told her dad was sick at the moment. She asked what type of sick. (just some background...she was there the night her dad drank and she witnessed the abuse. It was the only time in her life she's seen him like that and she was extremely traumatised by it to the point she will still talk about the time her dad turned from "a lovely dad into a monster". For a while she didn't want to see her dad. But then after a while, her dad and I explained to her that he became like that because he drank a 'yucky drink' and that he will never drink around her or me again. She was happy with that and thoroughly enjoyed her visits with her dad, with me keeping a close eye on dad when he had her through telephone contact or with the supervision of one of his family members. Many times when dad hasn't showed and other times when she's asked why she can't see her dad, I've told DD he's sick and she's asked if he's having the yucky drink again. I've told her yes and one time she asked me why. I've told her that her dad is an alcoholic. She asked me what that was. I told her it's a disease where alcohol makes him sick. Even though I know she doesn't understand, I felt it was important for her to know she isn't the reason she wasn't seeing her dad so that she doesn't take his abandonment of her on her shoulders. And as she gets older, I will give her more information appropriate to her age. Each time I've gently explained to her that she can't see her dad because he's sick, she's content with the answer). So, back to last night when she asked what type of sick he is. I said to her, "remember when we've talked that dad has a disease?" She said "Yes". Then she said "I don't want to talk about it mum and she started crying". I gave her a hug and asked if she was okay and she replied "I don't want to talk". I told her that was okay and hugged her while she cried and cried.

My heart broke for her again because you could see the pain in her face. I don't know whether I've done the right thing now by telling her dad gets sick because of alcohol. But what else could I have said to explain the 'monster' night where dad turned from an angel to a devil. Or to explain his absence from her life?

Normally, I just let it go and I let my ex contact me when he's ready to see her. But not today. Today, I went to his house to see if he was sober enough to talk about our daughter. He was suprisingly sober and working around his house. I asked if we could speak and he was open to doing so which was unusual as he's been really horrible lately when we've had any contact with each other. We spoke about our daughter. He has no intention of getting any help but he said he'd still like to see her when he can if I'm okay with that. I know that one day his drinking will be so bad that he'll never see her and I told him that. I told him that his daughter will, as she gets older, start to believe that alcohol is more important to him than her because she won't understand the power of addiction. The thing is, I don't know whether I should stop him from seeing her from now on or just go along with things as they are until the day he can no longer see her.

The other thing is, how he acted towards me today. My gut told me not to go, but my emotions got in the way. He started his quacking, trying to blame me for everthing and I told him I'm not buying into his alcoholic quacking or blame shifting anymore. That stopped him in his tracks and he looked a mixture of puzzled and amused that I'd worked out that tactic of his. What I also noticed was how I was feeling around him. I felt nervous and sick in my gut but I also felt the love. I miss him and stupidly I told him so. He said "I used to love you and you have some virtues but there's no way I'm coming back to you, a woman with five kids!" (This comes after Christmas day when he professed his love for me again..quack quack). I know it's over between us, but I don't know how to let him go. It really hurts. I think I need to go NC because the pain of having him in my life seems overwhelming right now but that's impossible as I need to be there to arrange contact for our daughter as she's still so young and I need to do at least regular telephone check-ups on him/her for her safety whilst she's in his care.

I left his house again with nothing much resolved about our daughter and my heart in pieces again. He, on the other hand, seems to have let go of me and he made it quite clear in a smug and arrogant kind of way that he's quite content in his own world.

What was I expecting by going there? A miracle? For him to say that he finally 'gets it'? That his daughter and I were worth fighting for? And shock, horror, that we're more important than a substance? I'm not sure why I tortured myself by going there today...

dancingnow

I felt so sad reading your post. It's hard when your looking for the true person inside an A and it's the alcohol quacking that keeps talking at you and plus you have your little ones to take care of.

I ask my HP every day and especially the times when I need to interact with AH (we're separated) to help me say and do what is best for my kids.

Hope you get back to a peaceful state. You have a lot of strength and courage and it's hard to be a parent and see your children feel sad and in pain and not be able to change it.

Seren

I'm so sorry for your pain. It's true that no contact is for our protection, but we sometimes have to learn that over and over again.

Hugs and prayers for you and your daughter....HG

LexieCat

Aw, Floss, that really sucks.

I'm so sorry.

But you are doing right by your daughter. You can't save her from being sad about her dad--she has a right to grieve that. You can only comfort her, assure her it isn't her fault (nor yours) (and, to some extent anyway, not even dad's--he didn't ask to become an alcoholic, though he's still responsible for how he acts), and be a strong role model for her.

Big hugs,

tjp613

I think you went there because you thought there was some shred of hope for an end to your daughter's pain. She's in pain. You're in pain. You want it to stop. The path of least resistance is that *voila!* he has had an epiphany, all is well, and you can be a happy little family again. It is so natural and understandable to do what you did.

I'm so sorry that he said such a hurtful thing to you after you were brave enough to share your vulnerability with him. Ouch!!...that hurts...and he knows it.

$20 says you won't be touching that stove again anytime soon.

As for what to tell your children about alcoholism, it sounds like you're doing all the right things, but here's an article... http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post2108924

((((Hugs))))

Kassie2

That sounded painful for you and I am sorry for your hurt.

Looks like someone beat me to it to recommend readings on the topic about children. My best suggestion is that it isn't your job to "explain" his behavior to her, you know the A causes it but why he continues or stops is up to him and you don't have those answers.

My first concern for kids is always - what do they want and can it be done safely?

When my DD saw her father in a violent rage et al. I tried to talk to her and she just wanted to know if it was ok to still love someone even though they did bad things. She said she knew it was wrong but she still had these feelings. I told her that we don't stop loving someone because they do bad things - but we do keep ourselves safe. So we went over the things she could do to keep safe on visits including the choice to leave or not go when she felt like it. She never decided to skip but as an adult knows her father's limitations very well. Last year she was in a relationship for the first time and he exhibited some of the same traits as her father and it took a short time - she was hurt but she got out of there once she saw it and moved on.
(Through this in to give you an example that it can turn out better than we think.)

lc1972

Hi Floss,

I think you are doing a great job trying to do what is best for your daughter. I am not sure if you have looked into it but there are counselors that specialize in children that age. It might be worth looking into and asking them if it is in her best interest to continue seeing her father. Sending hugs and prayers out to you.

Tuffgirl

We all fall off the wagon from time to time. We get a little banged up, cry a bit, and then try it again.

I had my moment earlier this week. It hurt. And it was stupid, accomplished nothing but anger and sadness.

But I think we need from time to time to remember why we are in the situations we are in. You got a reminder, another lesson learned. This man doesn't have your best interests at heart, not your daughters'. He can't. He's an alcoholic and we all know how incredibly self-centered alcoholics are.

Take good care of yourself and your kids. Find them the support they need as they grow. Take things one day at a time and strive to be the best Mom ever. And know every once in a while, you'll fall off the wagon. And that's ok.

Learn2Live

Sometimes I re-engage because I have forgotten the lesson I learned all the previous times I dealt with him and need a reminder.

Sometimes I re-engage because there is something I want to control.

Sometimes I re-engage because I WANT something so badly in my heart, that it convinces my mind that I can get it.

Sometimes I re-engage because I THINK I need something from him, and that convinces my heart that I can get it from him.

Sometimes I re-engage because there is some lesson I have not yet grasped.

fulloffaith

So sorry for your pain. But it is such an accomplishment that you recognize what you are doing and how it is hurting you. I agree with others, sometimes we want something so badly (a loving partner, a friend we can trust, the stable family with TWO loving parents). We have done so much to try and make what we want happen. The alcoholic is simply a person who cannot be what we want and need them to be. For us or for our kids. It's funny how they try to keep doing just the minimum....just enough to keep us hooked in the game.

I am glad for you that you know that you had interactions that hurt you. Now you can do all you can to stop that from happening again. They may not change, but we can. hugs.

theuncertainty

Oh, Floss. I'm so sorry for both you and your DD. That is the most heart-rending, isn't it? DS did and does the same thing: asking why and then saying he doesn't want to talk about it and crying just the deepest, body-wracking sobs. I've approached it the same way with him: "Daddy's sick. He has a disease." It doesn't make it hurt less, I'm sure, but I do hope he knows it's not because of him (DS).

Sending hugs. You're an excellent Mom!

Floss

Dancingnow...thanks for your reply. I have another exAH to deal with too and he is horrible at times when there's contact between us during the drop off and pick up of children. I have nothng but resentment for him (something I'm working on now) and so, with him and my exADF, I'll ask and follow my HP and also ask HP to guard my heart during these times!

Hydrogirl, thanks. I'd love to go NC to give myself time to heal, but I'm not sure how I can do this because I have to have contact with the ex regarding my daughter's visits. I do, however, have a friend who's offered to be the pick up and drop off point for our daughter. That way, I don't need to see my ex (unless I run into him when I'm out and about...I live in a small town) but I will need to talk to him while he has her. And I do have the choice whether I go to his house to have a talk or not...

Thanks Lexie. This is where I get angry at myself for my choice in men. I have another exAH and I think about the pain my other kids have gone through because of him or my choice to marry him and have kids. He's an abuser through and through. With him, remove the alcohol and you've still got a Narcissist. My exADF is entirely different but he does play games with my head. I love you, I love you not kind of thing. With him, I can see the disease play out and I feel for him. As you said, all I can be is a strong role model for my daughter (and my other kids). My kids know I'll never abandon them and I'm there for them.

Thanks Tip. You were right in your assessment of why I went there and it was definately an "ouch" moment. I cried last night in bed and I don't do that often. I'm usually a suppresser of sadness. Rejection again. But, today I will brush myself off and go to the beach. It's going to be a stinking hot day again! When I finish writing this, I'll read that article. Thank you!

Kassie, thank you for your reply. Right now, my DD wants to see her dad. She misses him so much and can't quite understand why she can't see him more. My other kids on the other hand have a different relationship with their dad. My eldest daughter doesn't want to see him anymore and that's fine by me. He's good with the younger ones, but once they turn teenage, and he doesn't have the full on control, he becomes abusive towards them. One of my sons is 12. His days are numbered with his dad and he knows it because he's seen his dad kick three of his teenage kids out so far (he has two teenage boys to a previous marriage). I'd like him to get out of there now, but he would like to wait until the time comes.

Thanks Ic1972. That's a good idea. I'm sure there are counsellors I can access in this area who specialise in this type of thing. I'll be checking that out!

Thanks Tuffgirl. I needed that reminder. It's as though I only remember the 'good' person he is and my mind shuts out the bad stuff. I'm lucky I have a friend who reminds me of all the stuff my ex has said. All the mind games he plays. The push/pull that goes on with him. And he is incredibly self-centred and his resentment is huge! I'm his latest scapegoat for everything that's ever gone wrong in his life...

Learn2Live, thank you for that enlightening list. I was wondering all night why I went there and couldn't quite put it into words for myself. I know it was emotion driven that's for sure. I can tick every point on your list. I'm going to write it out and put it somewhere where I can see it so that if I'm tempted again, I will read it and work out the underlying motive which is hard to see on your own sometimes when emotions blind out the rational. Thank you. It might help prevent another slip for me!

Fulloffaith. You're so right. They really do try and keep us hooked don't they? And obviously I haven't worked through enough of my stuff yet by allowing myself to stay hooked. Why do they do that? Yes, we can change. I just don't know why it still hurts so much 18 months later. I suppose, I have good days and bad days. And I'm not so paralysed with pain now, so I must be getting better. Now to not put myself in the firing line again!

Thanks Uncertainty. I know you know what it's like as you go through the same thing with your DS. It really hurts doesn't it? And it hurts more because we can't make our kids pain go away. We can only be there for them and hold them while they cry...

coyote21

I'm not sure why I tortured myself by going there today...

I know why. Because we'll do just about anything to try and stop that pain our kids feel from being abandoned, because they love their alcoholic parent. Little kids aren't supposed to have their little hearts broken and their little souls wracked like this when they're only 4 or 5 years old.

Reading your post made my eyes sting so bad for all our little kids, god damn it. LMC doesn't cry anymore, but she's so mad inside, it comes out all the time, it's burning hot inside her because she's so hurt by her mom choosing wine over her. The mad is easier to deal with for her and for me, but I still know where it's coming from. I have it too, but not from her mom anymore, I'm long past where she can hurt me again.

You just forgot for a minute that there's nothing we can do to stop our little kids from being hurt over and over again. We are powerless over alcoholism.....

Keep telling her the truth about her dad, it's not bad mouthing him, it's just being honest with her, and not covering up for him. He doesn't deserve it, and she deserves to know the truth.

LMC says how much she hates her mom, but I see through that, it's because of her hurt.
See ya in hell m-fers.

Sorry, got a little triggered there for a minute.

Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote

theuncertainty

Coyote, I was going to quote the parts I wanted to "Yes, that's it exactly!" and ended up started to paste the entire thing. So, ditto.

I just really want to grab XAH and shake him sometimes. "How could you do this to our DS?!?" But, he doesn't have to deal with the heart breaking melt downs, he doesn't see the pain. Even if DS felt safe enough to vent his feelings around his father, XAH still wouldn't see it.

Wishing us all peace and continued strength. And since our kids have to deal with this too, wishing them the same + all the opportunities in the world to be happy and carefree little ones.

Floss

Thanks for your reply Coyote...I understand why my post triggered you. It really sucks when you're left holding all the pieces, trying to console broken hearted children whose parents choose alcohol over them. It's hard to live with the fact his daughter is not reason enough for him to at least give sobriety another go. He's at the chronic stage of alcoholism. He knows he will lose everything, maybe even his life or what's left of his sanity, if he continues to drink. He's been to AA, court-ordered rehab, gaol, the mental ward. He's lost job after job and is about to lose his house. He knows there's a drug he can take while he keeps drinking which may help him find sobriety (if he's one of the lucky ones it works for) but he won't try it because he doesn't want to live a life sober. He knows he has choices and yet he clings like a man possessed to his right to drink. I believe the day DD is old enough to question her father about his alcoholism will be the day he 'chooses' not to see her anymore. He doesn't like being challenged in any way about his drinking. He guards and protects his partner in life (alcohol) above and beyond anything or anybody including his daughter. And yes, I did forget for a minute I am powerless over alcohol. How is it that a consumable liquid has that much power to destroy not only the person drinking it but everyone around them? I like feeling angry towards him because it helps keep me strong. Mostly though, I feel sad and I miss him and I know DD misses him terribly. And I will keep telling my daughter the truth in a loving way because not to do so would be adding to the secrecy and denial of this dreaded disease/addiction.

We're doing the best we can and I hear the pain in your reply Coyote and I know you understand. All the best to you and your LMC.

Thanks Uncertainty, I was also going to quote some of Coyote's reply and ended up wanting to keep it all too. I ditto it too. And you're right. They don't have to deal with the tears, temper tantrums, broken hearts. My daughter's father gets to drive away with DD running down the road after him crying and then falling in a heap at our front door sobbing uncontrollably calling for her dad for an hour or two. He gets to go home and drink. Numb it all out and leave me to it. I wish our kids all the happiness too. They deserve it. One thing is though, they have us. They know we love them and we will never leave them.

LexieCat

Interestingly, two men shared at my AA meeting last night how the one thing that got through to them when nothing else did was when their teenaged daughters told them they hated them. One spoke of his daughter, who never said a word against him, walking up to him and saying, "You know, I can't stand you. And neither can (siblings)." The other said his daughter wrote "I hate you" in lipstick on the mirror.

Sadly, I think the majority of alcoholics would blow right past that. It's also noteworthy that both of these guys said they now understand how long the hurt and harm had been going on before these events happened.

Both of these guys have a few years at this point. It's sad that so much pain has to be endured by everyone before things change. And even sadder that sometimes they never do change.

Learn2Live

Floss, hon, I just want to point out something about this:
Thinking this way has huge implications not good for that little girl. Or any child of an alcoholic. It is simply not true. Alcoholics choose to drink alcohol, and continue to drink alcohol, because they are alcoholics. It has NOTHING to do with ANYONE but THEMSELVES. Your daughter is learning from you. And your operating under this fallacy of thought will teach her that his drinking DOES have something to do with her (I am not blaming or criticizing you). Continuing to operate out of this thought process (your behaviors and actions) now, will reflect an attitude that his choices are directly related to who she is.

As an ACOA, one of the most difficult of my thought processes to change (which dictated my M.O. in nearly all relationships) was the "poor, hurt me with the alcoholic Dad who never did or gave me anything, different from everyone else, everyone should feel sorry for me" kind of thinking. As difficult as it may be, try to accept that he is NOT choosing alcohol over her. This may require a change in your ideas of what a father SHOULD be. Try to accept that he is doing the best he can do as a parent, tell him how you want him to behave ONCE, and then let it go. There is nothing for you to feel sorry for your child about, even if she is just little. Let her feel what she feels, acknowledge those feelings verbally and physically, but don't dwell on consoling her. There are a lot of wonderful things that a 4-year old can focus on other than what her alcoholic parent is doing. You are so doing the right thing by not forcing her to grow up with an alcoholic in the home! :ghug3

LexieCat

Thanks for that reminder, L2L.

It isn't like the alcoholic sits there with the bottle in one hand and the photo of the child in the other and simply chooses the bottle. It isn't that simple. It is a horrible, wracking compulsion. On some level, the alcoholic is aware of the harm he is doing, but is powerless to do anything about it. Usually alcoholics heap guilt on themselves, and use it to rationalize continuing to drink. ("I'm no good, let me numb those feelings away.")

Kids have the right to feel sad and mad when a parent abandons them through alcoholism, but we don't want them growing up to see themselves as little victims. We want them to grow up knowing that they ARE worthwhile people and weren't consciously rejected by the alcoholic parent. It's just that mom's or dad's sickness is so bad they can't be the parent they should be. And yeah, it isn't fair, but lots of things in life aren't fair. We can choose our own responses to the unfair things in life.

Learn2Live

I noticed a few weeks ago that my mother, now in her 70s, feels sorry for EVERYBODY. And expresses it. And I KNOW she has always been this way. "Oh, poor guy who got a dent in his car." "Poor lady who can't carry that heavy box." "Poor people can't see their behavior is bad for them." "Poor guy probably lost his house because he was laid-off from his job." It really bothers me now. Because I'm pretty sure it stems from having, living with, and trying to cope with living with, such a severe alcoholic. It is simply not a healthy way to think IMO.

Learn2Live

OMG I just realized, this is probably the reason I have always felt sorry for guys and made myself crazy (and broke) trying to help them!!!