kiki5711

I don't believe in this. It totally removes the responsibility to something "else".

I don't like to dwell on guilt, but hey, let's face it, sometimes "we DO" cause it, sometimes "we CAN control it" and sometimes "we CAN cure it".

There's no guarantee that a perfect childhood is going to produce a perfectly healthy human being, but there's a lot as parents we "could have" "should have" etc.... all the rest of coulds and woulds, have done and it affected our kids minds and behavior.

I think that one useful thing to teach our kids "by example" of course, is that anything can be overcome if you try hard enough, and never give up.

We can't guarantee the kids will have a lovely life, pick the perfect partner, have the best job, and even then, so what, a spirit of endurance and strengths in body and mind is a good thing to teach.

Well, it takes a lot of time and years. it's not a 2 yr crash course with a guaranteed diploma of course.

But anyhoo, just thinkin!

FindingPeace1

I think you are coming from the parent's perspective...which is admittedly a different one than the spouse.
I agree, it can be helpful to reflect, as a parent of an A, what factors could have influenced their choices (so that you might learn more about you).
Nonetheless, when working with adults or otherwise - ultimately, individuals make their own choices.
I don't think this saying is secretly telling parents to deny parental influence and responsibility. I think it is saying we could learn to get our claws out of other adults in the world and let themselves care for themselves.
We could discuss the level of causation in a variety of circumstances (of abusive parents), but I think the point is to let go.
Certainly controling and curing is beyond another person's power.
That lives in the individual.

I don't think we need to overthink it.
I think we can all practice letting go, setting self-care boundaries (for ourselves) and respecting other's choices to do with themselves what they choose.

Peace

lillamy

I've had this discussion with people before, and what I think it boils down to for me is how you view human beings, people, us.

I used to work with a woman who, together with her two siblings, watched while her alcoholic father beat her mother to death. They were too young and too scared to intervene. Both her siblings had addiction problems as adults, and explained it with their horrible childhood. The third sibling -- the woman I worked with -- said, "it doesn't matter what you have been through in your life. We still all get out of bed in the morning and have a choice to make: Am I going to let my past up to this point rule my future, or am I going to take charge of my future myself."

She refused to blame her father for the problems of her siblings. She said, "he was a complete and utter ***hole, but they chose to deal with their problems the same way he did, by using drugs and alcohol. That was their choice, despite the fact that they had seen first-hand the damage it could cause."

For me, the three Cs are empowering. I see it as grounded in an idea of human beings as being able to transition their circumstances. Because I see it as something positive: I see it as a testament to each person's power of choice, to make a different choice today than we did yesterday; to ask God (or whatever Higher Power we acknowledge) for the help today that we turned down yesterday; to improve on our lives and our paths and ourselves.

The three Cs, to me, mean that nobody in my past or my present or my future has the power to control how I have to behave. Nor do I have that power over anyone else. I think it's a "doctrine" (for lack of a better word) that places the responsibility for each person's life smack dab at their own feet. Yes, some of us had awful childhoods; yes, some of us had awful marriages; yes, some of us have health problems and heartbreaks -- but we also have the power of choice every day.

wicked

I agree with you lillamy. I am in recovery from alcohol. And admittedly, many years ago anything that crossed my path and made me stop feeling. I believe everyday is another day, another chance, another moment to do it right.
Otherwise, what is the point?

kiki5711

I am speaking from a parents perspective, you're right. I've gone through my share of guilt regarding my daughters. They are having a hard time emotionally and one of them trying to stop drinking. I know the core of their emotinal problems is from their father being emotioanlly abusive and the fact that I didn't leave him soon enough. I knew I had to get them away from him from the time they were toddlers but I went through hell and back a dozen times before I finally "escaped" the marriage and by that time they were 8 and 10 and he brainwashed them against me and went to live with him. Refusing to see me.

One year later, the older one came back. Three years later the youngr one ran away and came back to live with me. I still blame myself for the emotional turmoil they went through because of that marriage.

I made a poor choice for a father to my kids and they paid for it. I wish I knew then, what I know now. But it's all done and over with.

kiki5711

Every person that goes through trauma reacts different. Even though it may be the same trauma. Millions of people/soldiers etc...made it through wars and was able to pick up their lives somehow and move on. Others were mentally and emotionally scarred for life, ended up alcoholics, drug addicts, or just plain severely depressed.

wicked

Oh my, I made that poor choice twice. I understand how that guilt sucks.

as an addicted mother myself, sometimes i blame myself for my childrens poor choices.
part of my being sober now is giving them information i did not have when I was a teen.
I still missed the addiction with my oldest (he lived with his father) and my youngest (I chose not to see).
Another gift I get from sobriety is that pain, right there, that stabbing in my heart when I feel that twinge to use again. The shame was immeasurable.
Try to take it easy on yourself, and forgive yourself. Or the pain will not go away.

Beth

wicked

kiki,

would being ill or addicted make you less of a person?
i dont believe so, and I dont think you do either.
you have survived cancer, with tons of child addict drama at the same time.
are you confused about why they are making such poor choices?
instead of "soldiering thru" the tough times?
i know i did.
i grew up with my father saying "no weeping! no weeping allowed!"
to toddlers.
i am probably reading too much into your original post.

Beth

Shellcrusher

Seems to me that no guarantee's equal an inability to cause things to happen, control their course and ultimately can't cure it.

kiki5711

No, my father was wonderful. There wasn't any kind of abuse at all. I did tough it out and never blamed my parents about anything. They were who they were, and although they did not understand me when we came to USA from Croatia, (and it was a culture shock) I always took responsibility for my actions.

My older daughter gave me the most grief at a worse time in my life. While going through a breast cancer (mascectomy) then 5 months later with colon cancer. I had to wear a colostomy bag while going thruogh chemo.

During that time she became a monster. I wanted to run away. She drank and hung out with losers. Went to jail for 3 months, during which time I had to take care of my grandaughter. It was hell.

If my (current) husband did not help me and set boundaries and eventually made her move out and stay out, she would have run all over me. I always covered for her and tried to take care of her mess. After awhile I realized she was (heartless) at that time and was just using me and not caring what it was doing to me. That's when I REALLY started drinking A LOT. Instead of taking care of myself while going through chemo and stuff, I drank myself into oblivion every day to deal with the stress.

The younger one following the older one. The younger one still lives at home. She's the one I'm setting boundaries with now. Game's over. I've had enough.

However, every now and then when they are sober, they'll tell me "mom, you are my hero, I see how you dealth with all your problems and us and how strong you are".

Well, that's all good and well, but now I'm practically a total nerve wrect train and just the sound of my cell phone sends me into panick because it's usually them calling about either something they want or something bad happened.

I don't answer my phone any more and told them they are now old enough to be responsible for their actions and pay for the consequences of bad choices.

It's been a lot of help being on this forum and from my rehab to learn about boundaries.

MsPINKAcres

((kiki))

I think what helped me understand the 3 c's was when a wise "oldtimer" asked me to look at it the other way ~

I said like you I felt the responsibility - that I had caused, maybe I could have cured or controlled if I had done better???

She said - look at it this way . . .

You didn't cause your loved one to BE an alcoholic/addict - because if you did - then you could CAUSE them to NOT one - after all if you are that powerful - well why don't you just FIX them (she had a wonderful sense of Wit mixed with love & Humor)

If you could have "cured" them - don't you think all these wonderful people would have "cured" their loved ones many years ago - what makes you think you are some more talented than them??? (again that wonderful sense of humor & wit)

Control - hmm - she smiled at me and gave me a big hug and said "Your control of them has been working so well - really what else do you think you can do that will help control them to do better???"

The she smiled & said - honey probably every parent on the face of the earth - truly could have done a little better, loved a little more, been a little healthier with their children - because we are all imperfect - is everyone an alcoholic/addict?

NO -

alcoholic/addicts are born in everyday normal families and families that have seen multiple generations of this disease. This disease is NO respecter of person - it will strike anywhere and my friend it has nothing to do with YOU!

So KiKi - this is what helped me to understand the 3 c's -
In my opinion it truly has nothing to do with me - I know that I can contribute to their recovery or their continued downward slide - that choice is MINE -
Today I choose to give them the gift of a healthy mom - because I believe that is the most loving, respect thing I can do.

PINK HUGS to you!
Wishing the best for YOU and your loved ones!!
Rita

sojourner

I just finished reading Carol Burnette's autobiography. My goodness, did she ever come from a family FULL of addicts. the adults who raised her were on relief all her young life. Her grandmother (who raised her) was a hoarder and a pill-popper, her father died in active alcoholism with TB, her mother died an active alcoholic. It was pretty darn dysfunctional.

So what's her "excuse" for not going down that road? If anybody could use their childhood as an excuse, she could.

But let's not forget that addiction takes hold very quickly in some of our young people. Just about everybody experiments - it has nothing to do with childhood experiences - it has to do with peer pressure and wanting to fit in. Very few people get "hooked". Those that do get hooked have something going on in their brain. What the heck does childhood experiences have to do with that?

Our children are not as mindless as we give them credit for. They make personal decisions every day from a very early age. None of them escaped the warnings about drugs, alcohol, etc.

Babyblue

Children from the most loving and stable homes ALSO become addicts or alcoholics in just as large proportions.

Not all addicts or alcoholics had trauma, an abusive parent, poverty etc. Many come from loving and great homes.

If that were the case then those parents who DID all the right things and had resources would have been able to get their kids (even as adults) well.

That is really all the proof anyone needs.

Did you do some things that weren't healthy or helping to the addict? probably. But all parents make mistakes. We all have issues from our parents. Some scars run deeper than others but addiction and alcoholism is the great equalizer.

I think this notion that addiction or alcoholism is the domain of dysfunctional families or relationships is something that I hope can be balanced out.

Learn2Live

The "it" in the three Cs refers to alcoholism. It does not absolve anyone of their personal responsibilities. It is a tool that is meant to refocus the codependent who blames themselves for the problem and who is wrapped up in trying to cure or control the alcoholism. Guilt is often used as a manipulation to get another person to do what you want them to do. Lots of us stay out of guilt. Once you break free from the slavery of guilt, you can see just how sick it is to continue to allow yourself to feel it and operate out of it.

FindingPeace1

I found a concept from The Landmark Forum very helpful. They distinguish between blame and responsibility.
Blame is filled with guilt and negativity. It is stagnant. It ends there. It makes you feel stuck. You feel bad, responsible and at fault.
Responsibility is active. It is a choice. You take responsibility. It gives you power and choice. It doesn't have to be negative. It is generally positive and forward moving.

For example, I don't blame myself for marrying someone with alcohol problems (that make me unconfortable) and not saying anything till 2 years into the marriage.

I'm not saying that is how I would do it over if I had the choice.
I'm not saying that was a good choice.
I'm not saying it didn't hurt him to do it this way (it did and still does).
I'm just saying it doesn't serve me to be stuck feeling guilt and blame.

To put it another way, I once was told that guilt is an emotion that lets us feel better about the poor choices we made without having to actually change anything.
We can perseverate on the guilt and not move forward.

On the other hand, I do take responsibility for the choices that I made. They weren't ideal and I know I hurt us both. I accept responsibility for my poor choices and am taking steps to change how I deal with things in the future.
Beyond that, I work on letting it go.

There is a story about 2 monks walking down the road. They come upon a woman standing beside a river, who doesn't want to cross and get wet.
One of the monks offers to carry the woman across and she accepts.
He carries her across the river and the two monks keep walking.
A few hours later, the other monk, frustrated, asks the first monk, "Why did you carry that woman across the river?? We are monks and it is in our vows not to touch women! What were you doing? What were you thinking?"
After a bit of silence, the first monk responds, "I put that woman down a few hours ago...but it appears you are still carrying her."

I think acknowldeging what didn't work is very healthy.
I think there is room for us to allow it to be okay that we blew it.
We did the best we could with the knowledge that we had at the time.
It was all we could do.
No reason to preserverate beyond that.
It is so and it is done.

Hugs to you.
Take what you want and leave the rest.

Peace

lillamy

kiki -- I'm sorry if my response was hurtful to you; I did not mean it that way. Your second post scares me: That is my biggest fear, that the fact that I wasn't able to detach from and leave my AH sooner will come back and haunt my children.

It's "easy" to think about now, when the children are still fairly young, that I did what I was capable of doing when I was capable of doing it. But like you, I still have the guilt -- the "I should have left sooner."

Please be gentle with yourself.

kiki5711

No, it wasn't hurtful in any sense. It helps me to see it from all angles.

Because I knew this was going to affect them later on in life, I fought hard to set myself free from that marriage, for me and mostly to be an example for them that IT CAN BE DONE so that when they find themselves in a "loser" relationship, they can see it doesn't have to last.

My sister is one of those bleeding hearts that didn't want to give up on her marriage in spite that her husband was abusive/drunk and is still married to him. I told her many times to leave but she kept saying marriage is something to work on and through.

My parents stayed together their whole life but there was never any abuse there. I knew they were not in love at some point any more, but they're from the "old country" and they stuck it out. Even if my mother did want to leave, where the heck would she go? She was not educated and my father was the bread winner our whole life.

I wanted nothing to be like my mother as in "being dependent" on my partner. Somehow, my sister did end up having that mentality even though she put herself through nursing school and "could' be independent, she opted out to stay. I don't speak to her very often because I can't stand her husband.

All in all, I think my daughters will have in their brain memory of me being a fighter in all situations. I HOPE. So that no matter what they're going through, they can remember that it can be overcome.

kiki5711

We all have plenty excuses and some understandably so. I remember when I started smoking again after almost 10 yrs of not smoking, it was when my "journey out" of the marriage started. I would say to myself "this is killing me, the cigarettes" but then I would feel, "well, life at the moment is killing me even worse". I was in "fight/flight" mode and that "mode" hasn't let up since then. Even though events have changed, the stress of life has not let up.

When you're sinking in "hell hole of life" it's hard to think of anything other than to ease the pain. Sometimes you just need one hand to pull you out just high enough to start climbing back up on your own.

And then when you finally pick yourself up and think you have mustered the courage to start a new, --- lawyers letters threatening to garnish your wages for unpaid medical bills cheer you on so that you feel even better about life. (hear the sarcasm?

MsPINKAcres

Kiki - when I finally did walk away ~ that is exactly what did happen to me - my paycheck was garnished for my ex AH's medical bills that he didn't pay; then I received notice that paycheck was about to be garnished for the housenote!

This was the house that I struggled to get after our home was devasted from Hurricane Rita - We had replaced it with the home of my dreams, I had been the one who had fought the "red tape", stayed on the phone for days, went thru all the drama - and finally gotten the home based on my salary, job history & credit rating. HE refused to leave and also refused to pay the house note.

Had to file bankruptcy to stop them from garnishing my check for a house HE still lives in. And actually he still gets to live in that house for FREE because the government agency won't foreclose on the loan.

I didn't cause it
I can't control it
I can't cure it

But what I learned thru this painful discouraging lesson is that I can control my attitude, my outlook and my life -

Today my life is peaceful, calm and I am HAPPY! Will I ever have a big home like that again? NO but where I live now is PINKFULLY blessed with love, serenity and safety - I wouldn't give that up for the world.

That's another thing I learned about the 3 c's.

PINK HUGS to you!
Rita

kiki5711

how could they do that? the medical bills garnishment I mean? It's enough stress to put you back on the "exit" of a heart attack road. It's cruel, just totally cruel.

I have a ton of medical bills that have not been paid yet. This is an accumulation of the past 3 yrs of dealing with 2 cancers, not working for a year and half, and now working for much lower wage then I use to make.

I guess they won't be satisfied till I"m dead.

It's just when you think you're making a "little" progress in your life and trying to get better, the blood suckers want to take you down for a few dollars, as IF they havent's collected thousands and thousands of dollars on me from the insurance company already.

I'm totally ill about it.