lillamy

... but we need to talk about some stuff regarding the kids, and so I have to initiate contact with the X.

And then I thought about what L2L said in another post -- about observing our emotional states when we interact with the A, about being aware of our expectations (and adjusting them according to experiences, to a realistic level).

Here's what I see: When he goes off on a rant and accuses me of everything under the sun (Global warming? Me. Financial crisis? Me. Snowstorm in Florida? Most likely, me.), it doesn't phase me anymore. That's a good thing.

Most of the time, I go through my day without giving him more than a thought in passing. That's also a good thing.

But sweet HP, when I think of having to start a conversation with him, I still get a stomach ache and minor anxiety attacks.

Why? Most of the time, our conversations are completely issue-focused and to the point. And yet, I get the same "walking-on-eggshells" feeling as when we were married -- like I'm walking around with a live grenade in my purse, not knowing what will set it off. We had an absolutely absurd exchange last week like that -- I don't even remember what set him off, but it was the full-blown frontal attack with cursing and veiled accusations and the whole nine yards. And I shrugged it off.

So -- finally getting to my point here -- how do I get beyond this? It's like the anxiety of expecting him to blow up is a hundred times worse than my reaction when he actually does. How do I teach myself to have that calm before I contact him?

wicked

Okay lillamy, I have this problem and it is not even about one guy in particular. It is global. I am now talking to a very nice man. He has never said ANYTHING out of place or untowards or nasty to me.
But, I wait. I wait. Why I am still waiting for that grenade to go off?
I worry I talk too much, I worry I am making assumptions, worry worry worry.
Jaysus.

Beth

wicked

Oh, i forgot, I am still a good person no matter what i tell myself.

But I do remember my discomfort when talking to my ex.
How could I be the cause of allllllll his problems when I was so depressed I could barely get off the couch.
If I could harness all that evil power, well, I could rule the world now that I am taking Effexor.
heheheheheheh
I cant take myself to seriously lillamy. sorry.

I hope someone has some good guidance soon.
meanwhile i am waiting for my beginners book on buddhism to get here.

Beth

stella27

I don't know. I have 3 children with my xah and I just really really really try to do everything by email. It keeps us both focused on the issues and sounding like adults since we are both smart enough to know that the other could always use it as evidence. It works for me, but I do dread live convos with him. I am in a mode of avoidance and that's all there is to it. When I am comfortable talking to him, I will. Not before.

Eddiebuckle

Two words: serenity prayer.

Learn2Live

This:
would have me walking on eggshells, with a stomachache and anxiety attacks too.

I did not mean that you should ignore or adjust your expectation that he treat you with calm, dignity and respect. IMO, you should not ever engage with people who are going to be violent or who historically have caused you to have anxiety attacks. What I was getting at was that we often engage with others based on our own expectations of how the relationship should be. Ask yourself if (and how) you engage with him based on your own ideas, wants or expectations that he play a certain role in his relationship with his children, or with you. Is the reason you want to talk to him because of YOUR needs or expectations of him? Or because you think it is the "right" or "fair" thing to do? Did he ASK to be included in these particular types of conversations? Or do you just ASSUME he wants to play a role in these decisions that you "need" to converse with him about? Or did someone else tell you you have to do this, like a court order by a judge?

For instance, with one of my old ABFs, I found that my DEFINITION of who he was supposed to be in my life (my boyfriend) carried with it some rather strong ideas and expectations of how he should behave and the things he should do. (These are the "Shoulds"). It became obvious over time that he did not have the same ideas about how he should behave as a boyfriend as I did. (And no, it was not because he did not love or care about me enough). Most of the times that I interacted with him with these expectations and ideas, I would be negatively affected (disappointed, hurt, scared, crying, stomachaches, anxiety, crazy reactive behavior, etc). But I was able to see him as a separate person and I could see clearly that he just could not fit the mold, and I finally realized that it was my expectations of him that was causing me all the distress, NOT his behavior. I stopped expecting him to behave in the ways that I thought he should behave. I stopped TELLING him, or expecting from him, what I required of him and started ASKING what he wanted. What I learned from this is that it is helpful when I first objectively consider what the other person's wants, needs and ideas are, no matter what of my expectations they might try to go along with. If I try to hammer a square peg into a round hole, the peg is not going to like the hammering and it might start yelling. The more I hammer, the more the peg realizes he just is not round, the worse he feels and the more he yells. Alcoholics are not very good at relationships, and not very good at parenting. His balking and squawking might be because he WANTS to do the "right" thing but is not able.

Before talking, ask if it's a good time to talk. And ask if the issue you want to discuss with him is something he wants to be involved in.

Hope something here is helpful to you.

coyote21

It's been 4 years and I still get that feeling SOMETIMES. Not as often, nor as long, still sometimes.

I HATE having to contact the axw. What I have found helpful to me, probably learned it here or in Al-Anon is this:

I ask HP to speak through me and to guide my words. Works every time, when I can remember to do it.

Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote

wicked

L2L,
This was very helpful to me, and I have written it down.
I am waiting for the grenade to go off because those are the type of men I have dealt with before. Always traps around the corner.
But, expecting it is making me a little nutty.
alright then, my new friend does not want to blame me or vilify me, he likes me.
I will start with that.

Beth

Learn2Live

Of course, if a guy is just some psycho or has a history of violence, all bets are off. But then, I wouldn't be HAVING a conversation with such a person. Period.

lillamy

Because we've got joint custody (and AH has been transformed into RAXH), any decisions regarding the kids' education (general & religious) and medical stuff needs to be shared between us. And to his credit, he's a better and more involved parent now than when we were married. Part of it is because he's sober and realizing he needs to be there for the kids, but part of it, honestly, is because I'm allowing him to -- taking a step back where I used to make all the decisions (not sure what's the chicken and the egg there...).

I've been thinking about whether part of my anxiety is because I'm not convinced we'll agree on what's the best course of action in this particular situation that we're dealing with, and that's probably part of it -- I used to be able to make the decision and basically inform him when we were married (he didn't give a flying, basically). But there's also this other thing -- even if all I'm doing is texting him "DD left her Math homework at your house, please drop it by the school before noon today," I have to do yoga breathing before sending it.

The first part -- anticipating disagreement --, that just is what it is, in my mind. That'll always be there, there's always the risk of not seeing eye to eye on issues, and the fact that he is the person he is (drunk or sober) means discussions aren't easy. But I think it's the other part that's bothering me, because that part is all me. That part I want to be able to work on, and affect, the anxiety just because I have to communicate with him.

I ran across this quote from Aristotle today and it actually made me chuckle: "Fear is pain arising from the anticipation of evil." I think that's it. I'm anticipating evil even if I were to e-mail him "Have a nice day!" (which I don't...)

Live

I understand that Aristotelian fear. LOL

I thought L2L's idea on that other post of noting interactions was GENIUS. also everything she said here.

I can't talk with irrational and the very thought that I might have to...eek, anxiety, please don't make ME!

Let's hope she doesn't start sending us bills anytime soon!

Learn2Live

You're so kind to me Live. Love ya' hon. Good to have you back.

lillamy

If L2L starts billing us for good advice, she'll get rich and I'll be broke!

Learn2Live

I have plenty of experience with fear as pain arising from the anticipation of evil. In fact, I think my past experiences have affected my thinking in more ways than what I am aware of. If you figure out how to keep from feeling anxiety in anticipation of speaking to someone who has a history of yelling at you and generally flipping out on you, please let me know. I personally avoid toxic people like the plague. But it sounds like you can't.

I like stella27's idea about doing everything by email. Maybe you can further examine your interactions with him and figure out what sets him off. Maybe ask him when he is calm what sets him off? I do know there are subtleties of language that can be used too. Such as instead of saying, "please drop it by the school before noon today" say "could you please drop it by the school before noon today?" which gives the person the option and sounds less like an order or requirement. Remember, too, alcoholics and addicts tend to have EXTERNAL loci of control and so tend to feel bossed around and be easily frustrated.

Not sure if I'm helping any.

Learn2Live

Aw, thanks you guys.

coyote21

I got to enjoy two, count 'em, two , grueling six hour custody battles with axw. Ah, good times.

The first one, with a lady judge, we got joint custody, but with DD living with me, what ever that was called.

Axw was entitled to an appeal with a higher up judge. This time, the guy judge granted me sole custody. Axw and her mom pulled out ALL the stops and were caught in lie after lie. I, on the other hand, "told the whole ugly truth", even on myself.

I asked my lawyer after it was said and done, how the hell we managed to pull that off. He shrugged and said, he was probably trying to protect you from a LIFETIME of having to negotiate "every little thing to do with your daughter", with those two women.

I'm good with that.

Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote

P.S. I also asked him if this was it or if axw could drag me back over and over, (one of her threats). My lawyer laughed and said, she could, but next time he'll (the judge) probably charge her with the Kennedy Assassination. Pretty funny.

Live

a few days ago I was on another forum and a lady there had bought a pair of leather shoes and some leather protector. She is on a very tight budget so these purchases were not made lightly.

When she sprayed the leather protector on the shoes..the shoes got all splotchy. She got upset.
and before she had even left to go back to the store she was up at arms and defensive.."I am going to have to make them take them back. I am just going to have to insist" etc and you could hear the anxiety, fear etc in her.

we told her that she probably was anticipating problems that likely were not going to occur. That while the problem with the shoes felt very personal to her that to the store it was a business transaction and that most stores have customer service policies that want happy customers and repeat business.
That wasn't the paradigm she had been operating in.

She had expectations of trouble. and then all the consequences of not being able to afford another pair of shoes, money lost etc etc etc

I acted this very same way recently with my health care team..a couple people messed up and I applied it to the whole system and utterly panicked. Part of it was the traumatic effects of the initial screw-ups and part of it was my expectations of nothing but more of the same.

Last year in counseling we talked about reality testing alot. I have to do that often. Not just with myself but I consult others as we do here.

awesome bunch, aren't we?

but that fear and anxiety from expected evils is miserable..so anything that eases that is all good (except denial) LOL

theuncertainty

I wish I had anything to add for you, Lillamy. Sending you hugs and wishing you strength and peace!

lillamy

Live, you know, that story brought it home for me -- and I laughed, because it reminded me of a story my dad would tell me when I was a kid, about this guy who's out biking and gets a flat tire. So he sees a farmhouse and decides to go up there and knock on the door and ask to borrow a bike pump. But on the way up the hill, he starts telling himself this story about how the farmer will probably ask him who he is and want him to leave something of value so that he knows he won't just take off with the bike pump. That thought makes him feel insulted, because he's really a good guy who just had a flat on his bike, and who's the farmer to question his integrity, etc. So he works himself into such a frenzy and is so convinced of the truth of the story he's been telling in his own head that when he gets to the door, knocks, and the farmer opens, he yells at the farmer, "You can keep your f***ing bike pump, a***ole!"

I think you and L2L said the same thing, but the story drove it home for me. Yes, that is what I'm doing. Thank you!

And for the record, I did have an e-mail exchange with the ex, and he was being perfectly civil.

wicked

I love that story. And I will keep it in my mind when dealing with my daughters school.
By the time I want to call the VA department there, I am ready to tell them to keep their damn school.

LOL
Oh yes. anticipatory dread. still working on that.

Beth