I'm just dragging it out

Old 12-30-2010, 11:00 PM
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I'm just dragging it out

So, as you know, I found a big stash of alcohol a bit over a year ago. We fought for months, I went away for the summer, then I accepted a job this November in a different state.

We have been slowly moving toward discussing we are at a stalemate and maybe we need to give it up.

When he visited for the holidays, I asked him where the line was between his behavior (which he labels as using alcohol as a temporary comfort when stressed) and addiction.
He couldn't answer.
I said how do you know you are not over the line if you don't even know where the line is?
He couldn't answer.
Finally, he said, I guess we could do a survery of all cultures through time and get an average.

Yah, okay.

I said we could start (to try to repair our relationship) to acknowldege he and I have way different needs on the privacy/openness spectrum and maybe we could have a discussion to define those boundaries so that I wouldn't feel like he was hiding and he wouldn't feel like I was infringing on his privacy.
I thought that was quite generous of me since his need for privacy includes hiding drinking and alcohol and lying about it. Nonetheless, I thought if we could go at it in a more non-judgemental approach, he would feel less threatened.
He was fine with it until I started talking about things. Then he was back to defensiveness and obfuscation.
I think even naming where he is private is too much conciousness. He (subconciously) wants those things fuzzy so he doesn't have to look at them.

Tonight, my husband called me (depressed). His family had just taken portraits and I wasn't there. I did get asked a week before and I was working today, but I also felt like it would be more awkward for me to be in his pictures if we don't stay together.

He insisted he would do what I wanted, but nothing was good enough.
I said it was not about me bossing him around and being power hungry.
He said he and I both knew that it was (he gets so snotty/sarcastic/defeatist!).
I said, okay, will you go to AA or a counselor that specializes in addiction?
No! I'm not some terrible, f-up, he says.
I can do anything I want, he says (I can quit any time, in other words)
Then he goes all sarcastic on me. Oh, he says, look I didn't drink today! Is it a big deal?? Are you shocked?
Etc. etc.

After lots of fuming, snotty responses (in my head), I said, I'm going to go now.
He was confused.
I said goodnight and hung up.

I feel pretty tired.
The part of me that insists I MUST see it wrong and he is seeing it right is impressively persistent, but weakening.
Even if he doesn't have an addiction problem, he sure sucks to talk to about it.

What did my sister say? Everything I have ever let go has had claw marks on it?
That's me, too!
Dragging it out.

You know, I haven't posted in forever because I feel like I know I am just dragging it out.
I guess I am annoyed enough right now to post. (sheepish grin).
Words of wisdom, please.
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:35 PM
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Awareness is power.

I think after reading that
it's wonderful to see you examining your role in it.
WHat you contributed to it's ongoing-ness...

and now it's raised a question for you to answer.

And I think your post is your first attempting to answer that.

I've learned a great answer for being told this one:

No! I'm not some terrible, f-up, he says.
I can do anything I want, he says (I can quit any time, in other words)
It's two simple words:

"Prove it."

Works every time.
Yet I've never seen one get up and quit, either.
But the sentence never comes up again.

These things hurt.
they're just going to hurt
until they don't hurt
and nothing is more simple than that.

But we don't have to remain stagnant
while someone else is destroying themselves.

I think you're coming to that place
where changes start being made.

And that ... is a good thing.
That's a growth thing.
Taking ownership .. is a huge step.
huge.
Be glad for that.
And it's what we hold onto
until the pain lets up.

And each other.
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Old 12-31-2010, 01:06 AM
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Everything I have ever let go has had claw marks on it?
yep me too, LOL, I don't give anything up easily. we go at the pace we go, I really wasn't sure I was doing the right thing calling time until after I'd done it, when I found that the relief of finally having made that decision was a joy. Not having to go back and forward over it again and again and again.

The upside to taking my time, trying everything, is that I have never once regretted doing it. My stbxAH is who he is, I am who I am, we don't enhance each other's lives, and the compromises I made were both painful to me, denying my basic needs, and were not reciprocated.

I am left with the regret of not doing it sooner, but that for me is overwhelmed by the happiness that the decision is done with now. If you feel you are stagnating, you can choose to change that, to move forward in whatever direction, at the pace that is right for you.

and yes: prove it.
FWIW my ex didn't want the marriage to end either, even though he often berated me for many aspects of my basic personality and behaviour, and knew that I was unhappy about his behaviour. He used this as a weopon, how he was willing to accept me as I was with all my faults and still loved me, whereas I was too demanding and unwilling to compromise. The truth was the exact opposite, I compromised my arse off, I examined, over-examined and tried to change all the character traits that he identified and disliked (but still loved me despite of, lucky me, LOL), he changed nothing for any length of time, just talked a good talk.

((FP))
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Old 12-31-2010, 02:54 AM
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no words of wisdom, just some feedback that his side of the conversation is pretty lame. in all the time you've been gone, it doesn't sound as if he has taken any tangible steps towards dealing with his drinking and emotional baggage.

to me, an alcoholic saying that can quit anytime really means "i have no intention of quitting, i'm just going to hide it better from you"...

ever notice after relationship talks with an alcohlic in denial how that tired feeling washes over you? as if you are speaking a foreign language that they don't understand?
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Old 12-31-2010, 05:50 AM
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What is it the big book says about alcoholism? I think it's something like the disease is "cunning, baffling and powerful."

We can't outsmart the damn thing, FP, and neither can an alcoholic. I get frustrated as all heck about that, not just with alcohol but with other compulsive behaviors as well...compulsive behaviors are cunning, baffling and powerful...

I'm glad it's almost January, the next Alanon Step meeting will be "We admitted we were powerless..." I'm ready for more of those reminders, that letting go brings with it great relief and the freed-up time and energy to focus on myself and my relationship with my HP.

Sending you hugs, wishes for good rest, and peace within yourself in the New Year~and it's good to see you back here on SR!
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Old 12-31-2010, 06:30 AM
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barb, thank you. that's beautiful.
JenT - I have heard that a zillion times that "you know who I am! you knew when you married me! You're just judging me now. I accept you as is. That's what love IS!" Boy, does that sting.
It hurts because I DO have guilt over the fact that I wasn't ready to deal with this stuff when whe got married. I wish I had saved him the grief.
Those years don't feel like grief to me and I don't regret our marriage (or our wedding, which rocked), but I know he does.
For him, he has so much self pressure about where he should be in his life by now, he is depressed that I am regressing him. (sigh)
naive - boy, do I know tired. He was arguing with me that I didn't really understand how sad he was at the loss of the dream.
I was saying I had spent the better part of the year struggling with just that and I knew quite well about the sadness associated.
He was sure (since I am more matter of fact and emotionally neutral now) that I didn't.
Yah, okay.
That's the new place I go. "Yah, okay." Not as much outrage or confusion or devestation. Just a bemused acceptance (tinged with a bit of sadness).

posie - thanks. I have been trying to outsmart it for a year!!
Maybe if I just...we can be happy again.
sigh.

At the end of the call (I forgot to mention) I was trying to explain why I felt unsafe with his "solution" of "I apologize and we move on". I was saying I needed to see action. I was saying his one solution has been to quit (he suggested it), but he both drank during the time he said he would quit, and as soon as I left the house (to take a break) he gave up on quitting entirely. (God, that's heavy, huh? When I try to rationalize that he's not that addicted, that argues against my minimization)
I said that it doesn't make him a big jerk or a f-up, but it may make him an addict.

HOLY SMOKES did he get reactionary with that word (oops).
Great! You wanna get out? Get out! HAVE A NICE TIME BEING DIVORCED, he replied.
Silence on my end.
Then I said I as ready to go.

~
It feel a little better to let it out with you all.
I feel really sad.
It hurts a lot to accept the letting go.
Thanks for the support in the process.

peace
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Old 12-31-2010, 06:37 AM
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What I know is that I wasted a lot of time (years) thinking and arguing about who was right and who was wrong. After doing this in many relationships I realized that there really is no right or wrong (other than the obvious, see The Ten Commandments) and that it had become my M.O. to be hurt by something someone else did, to express that hurt, and to want the other person to change their behavior accordingly. The only way to do that is to TALK about it and the only way to get what I wanted was to be "right." sooner or later I had to accept that the world does not revolve around me and so people are going to behave according to THEIR wants and desires, not mine. It is up to me to do the same. Only problem was I was never quite clear about what I wanted or desired, other than how I wanted OTHERS to act in my relationships with them.

Now I am different. I learned to discover what I want and desire for me and my life and I make myself 100% responsible for that. If someone else doesn't jive with that, I have to determine whether or not they steal my peace and serenity enough that I should eliminate them from my inner circle. It's a very simple equation.

My suggestion? Stop talking about it with him. Stop talking to him about HIM. Decide whether or not you are both headed in the same direction and if not, well, take the action you need to take to get you where you want to go.

To me, anymore, talking is mostly about politics: Who has the "power" and is going to control the relationship. When both people want the control, talking goes no where. I am the boss of my own life and that is enough for me.

Hope something here makes sense or is helpful. I note that you were happier in the mountains
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Old 12-31-2010, 06:39 AM
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I still get glimmers of the guy I love with my AH, but our arguments about his drinking are very similar to yours. I truly believe they cannot get better without real help. If they are not willing to get help, it will be more of the same.

And I have the stories to prove it.

If nothing changes, nothing changes.

It's just awful. You want to get back to where you were - with the guy you love(d?) .. but these relationship discussions and drinking talks get so tiring. Mine actually says, "If you want me to stop drinking entirely, then leave now!"

Oh, okay.

It sounds like you are at a stalemate and waiting for something big to make you leave. Maybe all these discussions rolled up into one can be your big thing. I appreciate your stories - I so know what you are going through.
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Old 12-31-2010, 06:41 AM
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FindingPeace, I just read your last post and what I want to say is, he's not going to change, hon. He doesn't want to stop drinking, otherwise he would have in this past year.
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Old 12-31-2010, 06:52 AM
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You are so right.
I guess that is why I haven't posted in a while.
A part of me knows I am on the merry go round and keep talking about it without taking the actions that are in alignment with caring for myself.
I am afraid to and sad to.
He's exhausted from all my talking, too.

I feel a little like a kid standing on the diving board.
I know its time to jump.
I know there is a line of kids behind me.
I know I climbed up here to do this.
It just looks so far and I am so afraid.

I used to spend a looooong time up there feeling scared.
I'm still not sure, as an adult, what the trigger is to allow myself to jump. This comes up a lot in my life, actually.

I AM happier in the mts! I am still in them.
THere is a foot of snow outside and my dog and i are just about to ski out the front door!
Wish I could sit around and talk to you'all all day, but...I'll catch up tonight!

peace
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Old 12-31-2010, 07:01 AM
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I wish I were like you, about to ski out the front door. You are amazing! You say you are fearful yet look at what you did this past summer! See and acknowledge your courage and independence!

Fear IS paralyzing. Feel the fear and do it anyway! There are great things on the horizon; dare to dream of them! And remain grounded in today.
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Old 12-31-2010, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Learn2Live View Post
I wish I were like you, about to ski out the front door. You are amazing! You say you are fearful yet look at what you did this past summer! See and acknowledge your courage and independence! Fear IS paralyzing.

Feel the fear and do it anyway! There are great things on the horizon; dare to dream of them! And remain grounded in today.
So True L2L!!

I love your imagery FP. The diving board is a good one.

Feel the Fear and do it anyway. Such good advice there. I used to think that I should not do something until I no longer felt afraid. I wanted to be brave and courageous and thought that meant no longer being afraid. I've redifined that. Being brave and courageous is feeling the fear and doing it anyway.

Have you ever been bungy jumping? I have been (I foolishly jumped off a bridge once too -dumdum). It is a very physical expression of feeling the fear and doing it anyway. Wow, the exhilaration. I'm going to combine that diving board image with that feeling next time I'm so afraid - because I've spent years at the top of that diving board!
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Old 12-31-2010, 07:50 AM
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FYI - the ski was fabulous! (It has to be in the teens today - brr!)
I have not bungee jumped, but I have skydived (skydove?)
Why I could do that without hesitation, I don't know.
I was more compelled by the excitement.
I guess I was forward looking and with my husband I am backward looking.
It takes courage to stop second guessing.
It takes courage to stop hoping and wishing.
It takes courage to accept things as they are.
It takes courage to let go.

Where's my courage for those things??

Have a great day!
peace
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Old 12-31-2010, 07:54 AM
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Great thread, great introspection, great "claw marks" quote (I'll be adding that to my "SR Quotable Quotes list), great diving board analogy.

Great new word: Obfuscation is the concealment of intended meaning in communication, making communication confusing, intentionally ambiguous, and more difficult to interpret. Wow.

How did I ever get through 13 years of alcoholic nonsense with knowing this word?

I would only add, try to forget about all the other kids lined up behind you on the diving board. Way too much pressure IMHO.

You'll pull the trigger in your own time, and like me, you will absolutely, positively know, beyond the shadow of a doubt when it's that time.

Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote

P.S. What L2L said: You are amazing! You say you are fearful yet look at what you did this past summer! See and acknowledge your courage and independence!
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Old 12-31-2010, 08:20 AM
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THanks so much coyote.
I think something important is happening. I feel...volcanic. I mean I feel all topsy turvy and on the precipice of change (there's that diving board again!)
Holy smokes do I need support!
I am so terrified to divorce my husband.
I feel so bereft.
I feel so wrecked!
I feel so devastated.
THis just goes to show how much (feeling) I deny.
I don't know how to be a container big enough to hold all this pain!

God, I'm having a hard day!
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Old 12-31-2010, 08:24 AM
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I guess I was forward looking and with my husband I am backward looking
That is really good. Thought provoking. We can also see and feel the safety net. Not so at the top of the diving board.

It takes courage to stop second guessing.
It takes courage to stop hoping and wishing.
It takes courage to accept things as they are.
It takes courage to let go.
I don't know. I have to be honest and admit that those things did not really happen for me until after I left. I don't really recommend that route - would have been better and probably less crazy making to get all that in order first - I just didn't do it that way. I didn't know how and still don't. It may have something to do with not having a hp or not trusting in a hp??
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Old 12-31-2010, 08:25 AM
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I think this is your time to learn "change your thoughts, change your life." Google it and see

If nothing else, YOU are my inspiration today to get out of bed and get outside in the freezing cold and do something physical. Thank you. I'm going now!
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Old 12-31-2010, 10:09 AM
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Good thing for work.
You can't sit in your house and cry if you have to go out and work with the public!

L2L - wayne dyer rocks my world, for sure.
There is knowing and there is KNOWING.
Sometimes I resist it sinking in!! :P

How did you let go if you were still holding on and second guessing, though? It seems like you have to commit mentally to do it physically.
What order did you all wise ones out there do it?
How did YOU jump off the diving board?
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Old 12-31-2010, 10:12 AM
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The part of me that insists I MUST see it wrong and he is seeing it right is impressively persistent, but weakening.
This is so profound to me. I am keenly aware, lately, of how my subconscious works to convince me I'm seeing things incorrectly. That I'm wrong.

**** that, I say.
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Old 12-31-2010, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by FindingPeace1 View Post

How did you let go if you were still holding on and second guessing, though? It seems like you have to commit mentally to do it physically.
What order did you all wise ones out there do it?
How did YOU jump off the diving board?
I was certainly NOT one of the wise ones, nor was I one of the courageous ones. I stayed far too long, I was frozen in fear, but by then I finally had a HP.

I've shared this before, but but will again.

My wife was in court ordered rehab for 28 days. A CPS judge had put her out of the house, after a year in the system, for getting drunk in the care of our 4yo little girl while I was a work. I'm really quite surprised they didn't take LMC away from me also, at this point.

Two weeks into rehab, I could just tell that my aw wasn't "getting it". I didn't know what to do.

So I went to our CPS supervisors office and asked her, "If I allow my aw to return to our home after rehab, and she relapses, what would your (the Department's) next move be"? BTW, the relapse rate was 97% at that time.

She was very frank with me, she said, "We would then petition the court to remove your child from the home, because at that point YOU would be failing to provide a safe environment for her".

At that exact point in time, sitting in that womans office, it was "Game Over" for me. I was done.

Actually, not quite, I offered my aw one last chance at saving the marriage. I told her if she could maintain sobriety for one year, she could come home.

She told me to eff myself, and subsequently sucker punched me with divorce with out my knowing, so she could take all our community property. Called me up and said we were divorced, that worked pretty well for her. Just as well, it was just stuff. As a side note: Karma washed ALL THAT STUFF away a year later with a hurricane.

So basically, as far as getting her out of the house, and getting the divorce, my HP did for me what I couldn't do for myself. But I kinda set the ball rolling that day, when I decided I was done.

Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
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