Clean4ever

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Their are three ways to react when someone crosses the line and your boundaries have been violated....1)Stay Passive....say nothing and it will continue 2) Get aggresive and it might stop but someone might get hurt 3) Try Assertiveness and get results....In the household I grew up in staying shut and not making more trouble was the best option. Today in recovery I refuse to be treated like a doormat. Some addicts need to SHUT UP MORE and SOME need TO SPEAK UP MORE....Thats me...I NEED More Practice being Assertive. Im getting a little bit better at it. This assertiveness is a good way in expressing anger in a positive way. Im just learning this. And it will also help with resentfulness. Any suggestions on this topic ? Im Open...Thanks Clean

GingerM

I found that learning to be assertive was a very difficult thing for me to do, especially with pushy people or people who have no boundaries of their own.

I also have my own moral compass that tells me I don't want to ever behave in a way that I can't stand back and admire myself for. In other words, I am not a mean person and I don't ever want to be mean, even when someone else is being "mean" to me.

My therapist gave me this tool: repeat repeat repeat.

Let's say someone thinks you should go see a movie because they thought it was really good. (Note that in this scenario, YOUR preferences are not being taken into consideration - because the person has no boundaries, they assume that since they liked the movie, you will too and therefore you simply MUST go see it). My reply would be "No thank you, I'm not interested." They start pushing: "But it's a great movie! You'll love it!" In the same pleasant tone of voice, I repeat, "No thank you, I'm not interested." They push some more "No really, it's great!" Same pleasant tone of voice "No thank you, I'm not interested."

The great thing about this tool is that a person can only argue when they have something to push against. That's why repeating the exact same words in the exact same tone of voice works so well. You don't argue with them about whether or not you'd like the movie (that gives them something to push against), you just keep repeating the same words in the same tone of voice. For the boundary-less, this is akin to arguing with a wall. They have nowhere to go with it, nothing to grab onto to suck you into their world. Once I had been taught this skill, and once I'd had the chance to practice it, I found it works amazingly well. It's great for coworkers, clients, friends, family members.

And the best thing of all for me? I don't have to get nasty or snarly. I can continue to be pleasant and not "mean" and still strongly defend my boundaries.

That's my experience, for what it's worth. I will add that it did take me a while to get skilled enough to not find myself arguing. The closest I get to arguing now is that I will often acknowledge their intent before continuing repeating myself. "I understand that you think I would really enjoy this movie, but I'm really not interested." (they usually try to hook you into an argument here, that's where the repeating of "No thank you, I'm not interested" comes back into play.)

It works for little things ("have a cookie!") to big things (you need to change and be more like me). There are a few people I know who will become angry with me because I keep repeating myself. In these instances, I know I need to hang onto my resolve to continue repeating that much more strongly. The people who get angry after the 5th or 6th time I've repeated myself are the very people trying to run over my boundaries with a steam roller. It's even more important for me to stay focused on myself and continue repeating whatever the phrase is that I'm using.

dollydo

Overall, I am an assertive person, so, when it comes to my bounderies that are being stepped on, I am firm and assertive and when that doesn't work after a period of time, I move on.

Not for everyone, just works for me.

nowinsituation

Timely thread for me, as I recognize in myself the inability to enforce my boundaries without getting angry.... For example enforcing house rules with my daughter (usually minor stuff) or work policies with my co-workers. Often it is something small, and I will ignore it or deal with it on my own. Then after letting it go I feel I don't have a right to enforce it.... Until my frustration builds up to anger, and I over-react.

Ginger - I love your advise and can see where it will be a good tool when someone is encroaching on your boundaries (or being aggressive). I also need lots of work on assertively enforcing rules/boundaries with others who are being passive.... Any ideas?

tromboneliness

That's what my favorite non-program program book (When I Say No, I Feel Guilty, by Manuel J. Smith) calls the "Broken Record" technique. It's a book about systematic assertiveness training, and he gives you specific techniques that you can practice and use in real life. Amazing how well they work!

T

GingerM

My techniques are as varied as the people I need to enforce them with. I have raised a teenage male and I am also a manager. The one thing in common with the two is that I try to never *ever* do for them what I've asked them to do.

For instance, with the teenager, he eats a tremendous amount. One of the rules in our house is to clean up crumbs or sticky things left behind on counters. Given that he eats on average about once every 20 minutes, the counters can be really disgusting by the end of the day. This technique was difficult for me because it requires patience and calmness.

With my employees, we have a job that requires a terrific ungodly amount of documentation. My employees often forget to document the things they need to.

In both cases, I do not do the task for them. I will warn you that this method will take much more work than doing it yourself, but it also will prevent you from driving yourself insane with the bitterness of always having to follow up behind people.

Step 1: Assume the person has truly and genuinely forgotten to do the task (or forgotten the rule) that has been set in place

Step 2: Get your mind in a place where you can be sure that your tone of voice will sound as if you honestly believe they have simply forgotten.

Step 3: In a pleasant tone, remind the person of the task and ask them to complete it, preferably now, but at their earliest convenience if they are unable to do the task at this moment.

Step 4: check to see if they've done it

Step 5: State that you believe they must have forgotten, and ask them to do it again.

The key, I found, with this is to always always treat the person with respect and dignity.

The teenage male usually only took two reminders to clean up the crumbs. One of my employees had developed a very bad habit of forgetting to document things - after asking the third time, I would simply take the documentation and leave it on his desk with a sticky note that said something along the lines of "please don't forget this."

Being someone who has a tendency to forget the little details myself, I can easily see how someone's mind might be elsewhere (especially teenagers!) and would simply forget. Then I treat them the same way I'd like to be treated if I needed to be reminded of something I totally spaced.

It is a very tiresome business, but the great thing is that they usually respond well to the respect and dignity of the request. One of the interesting things about treating people with respect and dignity is that they develop a sense of respect for you in return. This cuts down on the number of yelling matches that occur. It doesn't happen overnight (and the teenager may respond with a "stop nagging me!" type statement, the best response to this is "I'm very sorry if I sound like I'm nagging, I don't mean it that way, I thought you simply forgot and was reminding you." There's no arguing with someone trying to do a kindness for you.)

One of my employees was very very deficient in his documentation. After about a year of this treatment (the only time I ever told him he HAD to document (issued as an order, not a request) was during training - we work in a highly litigious field, and I made sure he understood that a lack of documentation could lead, at best, to us being sued, and at worst, to him being sued for fraud) - after about a year of this treatment, my employee was better about documenting, but still not great. At that point, I dinged him on his annual review - and made him cry. Honestly? It's a horrible feeling to watch a person cry during their annual review. I think all my employees have broken into tears at some point when something has happened that they know will let me down - and they've admitted that they aren't nearly as concerned with what our clients think as they are with letting me down or breaking my trust in them. They've also said that they only reason they care about what I think of them is because I've never yelled at them and have always been reasonable and supportive of them.

So in the case of setting rules and getting others to follow them (where you're trying to modify someone else's behavior) a little respect goes a very long way. As I warned before, this can be very time consuming and a lot of work, and sometimes emotionally draining. In the long run, though, it pays off.

Another key to this technique (both with teenagers and with adults) is to not hold prior offenses against the person. Treat each new instance as if it were the first and only. Don't bring up stuff from the past - you can't change the past, and bringing it up only serves to make the person feel like you're berating them. I am frequently heard to say to my employees "well, where do we go from here?" or "what can we do about this now?" with the emphasis always being on the "where we are right here right now" and not on the "how did we get here?" Realistically, it doesn't matter much (except with the teenager) "how we got here" - what matters is what we do from here to try to fix the problem. With the teenager, after the problem was rectified (and ONLY after), then there would be a discussion about how we ended up with the problem and possible solutions to how to avoid it in the future. I have similar discussions with my employees, but those tend to be pretty short since my employees usually know what they did wrong (and since they're terrified of letting me down, I don't need to say much other than to ask them what they think is the best way of preventing the problem in the future - they almost always already have the answer)

If you and your teen already have a somewhat hostile relationship (not to be unexpected with a teen), you may need to sit down before you make these changes and ask for their help. Tell them that you are not happy with your own behavior and that you are trying to work towards changing it to be more respectful to them. Ask them to remind YOU if they perceive you as acting in a disrespectful manner (you have to be ready to hear it if they do remind you, and to thank them for their help). This makes them feel as if they have some input and the process is collaborative rather than combative. Forgive them if their mode of expression is hostile - teenagers do not have the social graces of adults and may snap or snarl rather than calmly stating their opinion.

Last year, I realized that almost no one ever says "You're welcome." I realized I was one of those people - I would grunt or mmm-hmmm or nod, but I didn't say "You're welcome." I asked my teen to help me change that behavior by reminding me. He took great delight in saying "Thank you" all the time just so he could rib me about not saying "You're welcome" Now that he's off at college, he still emails me or texts me a two word communication of "Thank you" and if I don't respond, he'll send it again. It's sort of a game now, but a game with a very good purpose: for one, he's learning when to appreciate things that people do for him, and secondly, I am re-learning a basic etiquette skill that I seemed to have allowed to fade. It's all done with fun and dignity.

I would not treat my employees this way. But for the most part? I treated my teen with the same respect and dignity that I treated my employees, only with slight modifications due to the familial relationship I have with my teen and also the fact that he was not an adult yet and needed to learn a few more skills of adulthood.

And it was exhausting on some days. I will admit that there were a few days when I just cleaned up the crumbs because I just didn't have the emotional energy. But the majority of the time, I would remind, remind, remind. My teen is also terrified of offending me or letting me down, just like my employees. He also knows that I will always love him and (barring the big felonies) will always emotionally support him (which is why he feels so horrible when he does let me down).

It was not an overnight process to get either my employees or my teen to that state though. It took about a year of closely working with my employees before they truly believed that I was not going to yell or blame or otherwise be punitive. It took probably more time, but spread out over a longer period of time, for my teen to get there.

Sorry this is so long, but I found it difficult to get all the important parts across in just a few sentences. I hope some part of this is helpful.

NoelleR

"...My therapist gave me this tool: repeat repeat repeat...

"...Let's say someone thinks you should go see a movie because they thought it was really good. (Note that in this scenario, YOUR preferences are not being taken into consideration - because the person has no boundaries, they assume that since they liked the movie, you will too and therefore you simply MUST go see it). My reply would be 'No thank you, I'm not interested.' They start pushing: 'But it's a great movie! You'll love it!' In the same pleasant tone of voice, I repeat, 'No thank you, I'm not interested.' They push some more "No really, it's great!" Same pleasant tone of voice 'No thank you, I'm not interested.'..."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I dunno, kinda sounds like my buddy Einstein's definition (and a perfect example) of insanity ("The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.")......


(o:
NoelleR

GingerM

But! Einstein didn't take into account friction and wear and tear! Eventually, if you do the same thing to something over and over again, it will wear down (e.g. brake pads, clutches). I think that's the principle at work here.

EveningRose

Exactly. This is what I was trying to say in my post about being excluded from my family: why I chose walking away. (Or did I delete that part?)

My own experience is that you have to be prepared for people to be angry, no matter how nice you are about being assertive. It makes it hard because, if you don't want to be 'mean,' and you know your entire family is saying you are 'mean' or 'bad' or whatever, it's easy to second guess yourself. But I can look back and see that, like Ginger, I have repeated one message, relatively calmly, 99% of the time: I would like to be treated with respect. It has done me no good as far as having a good relationship with my family. But it has done ME a lot of good in getting me away from the insanity, and I have no regrets or embarrassment about my own behavior.

I like the idea of assuming the best of people. Assuming they genuinely forgot to clean the counters, for instance. Although, again, it doesn't help the situation, it has helped me, to understand that my siblings have been raised hearing certain things about me, literally their whole lives. It's not really their fault they think of me as they do. They're victims in their own way, denied a relationship I know they would like to have, because of the brainwashing my mother did on them. I know she is half-crazy with living with my dad for 50 years. Doesn't mean I have to go back for more, but it helps me a little bit to speak to them civilly and kindly, if I absolutely must. It helps me pray for them rather than hate them. It helps me not to take it personally, and to see that it really doesn't say anything about who I am, because I think it's when we believe it really does say something about us that we are the most hurt, and therefore, the most angry.

GingerM

Bullseye! We can't change crazy people to not be crazy. We can change ourselves so that we can be comfortable with who we are and how we behave. Like you, this isn't about helping or changing my family, it's about helping and change ME so I can be at peace with myself.

tabfan

I have taken a lot of physical abuse as a kid. Both my parents were alcoholic. My brother was four years older than I, and he was always bigger and faster than I. I tried to out run him a couple times. But, my legs had been badly broken as a 4-year-old and therefore didn't work so good. No matter what I did, no matter how much I prayed (and I prayed a lot for someone to "save" me), I still got badly beaten! When my parents returned, I was told that if I "told on my brother" he would come back and kill me. He always followed up that warning with another blow to the face or the side of my head, leaving me bleeding on the floor. Worst of all was getting the wind knocked out of me. I would get up, and I would start getting light-headed from having no air in my lungs! My mouth was open, trying to breathe, but nothing would come out or go in! I would almost pass out from it just before I started breathing again! There are only a few beatings that I can remember, but they are all blurred into months and years of beatings. My little sister witnessed all the beatings and she told me that there were literally thousands of beatings. I can't remember them though. And, I am okay with that.

The worst part of all this is, I learned to be passive. Like my mother who took abuse from my father, I said nothing to anyone. Being the "hero" kid, I also didn't want to bring attention to the insanity in our home!

I was in Treatment in 1986 when I was told that it was "okay" to be angry. I was sitting in group with about 8-10 people sitting around in a circle. It was my turn to share. The therapist said "Let it out! We are here to help!" I took a deep breath and hollered at the top of my lungs. I think I almost blew the windows out of the room! Apparently, I started hitting the arms of the wooden chair that I was sitting in. The therapist told me later that she thought I was going to break my arms just above the wrists. She screamed: "No hitting your arms on the chair! Hold onto the chair with your hands!" So, I did.

That was my first experience with true anger. It was weird. I had lots of trouble going from passive to aggressive. It only happened a few times, but they are when I was "sober" and they are fresh in my mind. All I remember thinking is: "I have allowed this person to be mean to me only a few thousand times too many! I am not going to take it anymore." Then, it was a verbal assault. It only happened about seven times but they were major events. I am not 50 years old and I am reading a book called "Hold Onto Your Children" and I am learning about what went wrong in my childhood that made me so unhealthy emotionally.

Thank God we had "Adult Children of Alcoholics" Meetings in our small town when I first got sober. Thank God! I would not have made it if we didn't. The meetings have long since fizzled out but it was the best four years of my life. I was being bandaged-up emotionally every single Thursday evening just by being around those in my group. They will forever be in my heart!