juliwuli

came to believe a higher power can restore us to sanity??
my higher power is god, i have always believed in god i have to say that straight away, but i have always believed in karma too, - what goes around comes around and god judges sinners and will punish them,
i always thought my alcoholism was a punishment from god, as believe me, i have sinned in the past, so i am asking to be absolved of my sins?
am i asking for my slate to be wiped clean?
sorry if this sounds jumbled but i'm confused,

Veritas1

I don't believe alcoholism is a punishment from God.

Karma? Don't know about that really...sorry. Some others here might know this belief.

I have read God forgives, versus judges...in my Bible. Try reading the new testament maybe?

Maybe this would help you.

I think we always would repent and ask to be forgiven for our sins...or to use your word ...absolved...

We recognize we have sinned, and we ask God to remove our sin. We strive to live in the spirit.

God already knows everything we have done.

Yes, ask for your slate to be wiped clean. Ask for whatever is on your heart.

It's your personal relationship with Him.

This reminds me of a prayer.

Most merciful God,

We confess that we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves. We have sinned against you in thought, word and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart, we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. Have mercy on us. Forgive us, renew us, and lead us, so that we may delight in your will and walk in your ways, to the glory of your holy name. Amen

DayTrader

I think alcoholism is the result of being separated from God. God loves us but he doesn't force us to stay close. We're "allowed" to wander if we so choose. I don't look at it as something "sent from God to punish us" but as the natural result of what my choices.....and mostly in my choice to play the role of God - to try to run my own life (and the lives of others) as best I see fit.

First I recognize where my choices have taken me: chronic alcoholism and an unmanageable life - period. I'm screwed. So next, I have to decide if there's hope or not. Can this ship be righted? -- I think so.....IF there's a power out there with more abilities than me...more powerful than me. (2nd step) So I figure, IF this power is out there and it could and would fix my problems for me, wouldn't it make sense to listen to/follow that power? - I think so....so I make a decision to give up the reigns of control and hand them over to this power greater than myself (3rd)

keithj

That's the Step as it's written on the wall. The specific directions for that Step are in Chapter 4. It lists some minimal requirements. One of those requirements is being convinced of the hopelessness of alcoholism (Step 1). Am I thoroughly convinced, right down to my core, that I can not overcome alcoholism, that I have lost the power of choice?

Another requirement is laying aside prejudice.

This 'pre-conception' of alcoholism as punishment, and God as wiping the slate clean, must be layed aside. Then, as it tells me on pg 47, am I willing to believe in some power? That's all that is required. Willingness to believe. Then I abandon myself to this power, in whatever direction it takes me in Step 3. And so forth.

juliwuli

thank you you have answered my question entirely with this paragraph. thank you also to veritas 1 and keithj for your responses

skg

There's a lot of stuff in here, but I'm right with you on the questions! I spent years trying to determine why I wasn't getting any favors from the God my mother taught me.
So, I'm going to break your post down into chunks as I understand them:
First, I think the second step says, "2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity."

Hope, as a tool, relies firstly on being honest with myself and, having come to grips with the fact that I cannot do it with all my willpower and/or good intentions, finding the answer outside of ME. Me PLUS something else constitutes something greater than myself, true? Therefore, a group of people or a sponsor or a book or a combination of these, plus myself, is by definition, a 'power greater than myself." If I can rely on a group of people, a sponsor, a program, and/or a combination--a "Power greater than myself"--to show me the way; If I can do what they did as they did it, then I can reasonably expect to get the same results. If insanity is defined as, "Doing the same thing all the while expecting different results," it then follows that sanity can be defined as, "doing the same thing, expecting the same result." "COULD restore us to sanity," means there's work to be done.

The Spiritual Principle of the second step is HOPE. That if I do what they did, I can reasonably expect to get what they got. If I do it often enough, it will become routine.

As a tool, HOPE simply means "If I can't do it alone, perhaps there's someone of something out there that can help me," and I CAN BE restored. It's knowing that and asking for help. We no longer have to face ANYTHING alone. ANY THING.

HOPE. It is the power of the Alcoholics Anonymous Fellowship and the second step in becoming usefully and happily whole.

Now, as for the second part. This is a 4th and 5th step issue, so don't get the cart before the horse. Understanding that the relationship with a personal and infinite God can only grow as the vessel is made ready, simply allow yourself to remain teachable. Ask.

As I understand 'The Fall,' it keeps us separate from intended communion with God--and that God's tremendous sacrifice of Christ on the Cross at Calvary allows me to come back to communion with Him. Justification. To start anew, and be forgiven all my transgressions. But I must choose it of my own volition. My journey with God as *I* understand Him is just that: MY journey. Yours will likely differ, but it's available to you if you'll simply ask. I had to stop dictating my expectations to God and start listening with my heart before I actually started growing--and that happened only after doing the Twelve Steps and embarking on a spiritual quest of my very own.

As always, your results may differ...
~peaceness~

freya

Based on my experience thus far working the 12 Steps and on what I've "gotten" thus far from doing so, I would have to say that what I am seeking (and I had no clue that this was what I was seeking when I started) is a fuller awareness of, gratitude for, and receptivity to God's grace and the redemption (very, very different from "justice") that results from being open to and aware of receiving that grace...not because I deserve it or because I earn it or because I ask for it but simply because He loves me and will give it to me insofar as I am open and willing to receive it...

...Actually, my best guess is that He's giving it to me all of the time...The real question/problem is whether or not I am receiving it...

I guess how I see it is that my "sins" are any any behaviors, or attitudes, or beliefs that separate me from God and keep me from receiving/recognizing His grace, so, as Bob D. says, "I am not punished for my sins; I am punished by my sins."

In other words, God is not out to punish me or to cause me pain -- I cause my own pain and inflict punishment on myself insofar as I live in denial of God's grace and out-of-sync with God's will.

freya

Ngokpa

Karma is action. It's like yelling in a canyon and hearing an echo. It's like any other natural force like gravity; nobody has to cause it, it just happens.

People do the best they can, but we make mistakes because we don't know any better. So we have to learn how to know better. Which means being open to other answers besides our habitual ones.

WakeUp

A lot of people misunderstand the law of karma.
Karma is simply cause and effect. This thing happened because that thing happened before it. Karma is a law of the universe. Karma is not a gift, reward, punishment, retribution, or judgement. Karma does not keep score, or play favorites. It is not something deserved. It is simply cause and effect.

jgm

oh man you sound like me!

I think i'm with Keith, sounds like something my sponsor would say.

but yeah it dosn't have to be confusing, I did step 2 so I could do 3.

And just kinda go along with the process. Any clarity I get is always in retrospect, ya know?

I had to do all 12 steps to get any result. So I would ask all those type questions which is perfectly normal, but my sponsor would just say 'thanks fine, hold on to that question and lets move forward'

so how i practice step 2, and this is just what i was told, is by doing the rest of the steps.