When do they get it?
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When do they get it?
Had a conversation with the RABF today. It left me puzzled. Not about he and I but he was talking about his kids. Loves them dearly but he doesn't seem to connect the dots about how his drinking has damaged their lives. Or he isn't ready to face it yet. He is sober but his thought process is that of the alcoholic. When does that change? Maybe it is too soon in his recovery but he even said he didnt' feel guilty that their mom is really struggling.
He is a compassionate sensitive guy but then he all of the sudden acts detached about those he loves. Could just be who he is but maybe it is part of recovery early on... still not able to face the extent of the damage they've had on others lives.
I wasn't questioning him btw, just listening and processing his 'guilt free' perspective. The more I think about it and write this the more I think it is still too early in his recovery to face the extent of how his drinking affected others.
And before y'all say 'why are you thinking about this and you should go to a spa'
it is because if I'm gonna have anything serious with this guy, how people treat their loved ones (sober) tells a lot about how a bf will treat their significant other. He is great with me and with his kids but the sudden detachment from his part in whatever hardships the kids face was odd, he is usually more self aware than that. I imagine the load of accepting the full extent alcoholism has on kids is too big for him to process at this point. Will he ever 'get it'?
This is where those who have gone through recovery could possibly provide insight mayhaps?
He is a compassionate sensitive guy but then he all of the sudden acts detached about those he loves. Could just be who he is but maybe it is part of recovery early on... still not able to face the extent of the damage they've had on others lives.
I wasn't questioning him btw, just listening and processing his 'guilt free' perspective. The more I think about it and write this the more I think it is still too early in his recovery to face the extent of how his drinking affected others.
And before y'all say 'why are you thinking about this and you should go to a spa'
it is because if I'm gonna have anything serious with this guy, how people treat their loved ones (sober) tells a lot about how a bf will treat their significant other. He is great with me and with his kids but the sudden detachment from his part in whatever hardships the kids face was odd, he is usually more self aware than that. I imagine the load of accepting the full extent alcoholism has on kids is too big for him to process at this point. Will he ever 'get it'?This is where those who have gone through recovery could possibly provide insight mayhaps?
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Usually step 4 is the big one on getting the damage caused by drugs. If I can remember, they had me doing my step one by the 2nd week. By the 4th week we had step 4 and 5 together. That could be all dependent on how long his actual detox took. If he spent a week on anti anxiety meds he may just be on the first or second step.
Or he could be one of these kind of guys that just doesn't get it irregardless of substance abuse. My mom's bf is one of those guys, he's loveable, he's sweet but he was in the military his entire life, never bonding much with his wives or kids and he has no emotional attachment to them, when he was sane, (Alzhiemer's got him) he did not seem to wonder or care where his kids were, what happened to them as adults, just strange. He wasn't a drinker or substance abuser, he just seemed detached.
I hope in his case he's just not gotten thru the fog yet and really started working on his issues. I do believe there's hope but real recovery really starts after treatment. The first 6 months for me were like being on an insane rollercoaster. Happy one minute, crying the next, wanting to commit mayhem, wow it was all painful.
I don't know what else to tell you, each person gets things differently, some quick, some slow. Pamper yourself now, I adore that Bath and Body Works store, I just can't ever get out of there for less than 25 dollars. Sweet thoughts and hugs for you.
Or he could be one of these kind of guys that just doesn't get it irregardless of substance abuse. My mom's bf is one of those guys, he's loveable, he's sweet but he was in the military his entire life, never bonding much with his wives or kids and he has no emotional attachment to them, when he was sane, (Alzhiemer's got him) he did not seem to wonder or care where his kids were, what happened to them as adults, just strange. He wasn't a drinker or substance abuser, he just seemed detached.
I hope in his case he's just not gotten thru the fog yet and really started working on his issues. I do believe there's hope but real recovery really starts after treatment. The first 6 months for me were like being on an insane rollercoaster. Happy one minute, crying the next, wanting to commit mayhem, wow it was all painful.
I don't know what else to tell you, each person gets things differently, some quick, some slow. Pamper yourself now, I adore that Bath and Body Works store, I just can't ever get out of there for less than 25 dollars. Sweet thoughts and hugs for you.
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Hi Babyblue My RABF owned up to a lot of havoc he caused after his 4th and 5th steps. It's weird though...he'll verbalize his remorse, but then seem clueless as to why I haven't wanted to go public with our romance so soon, or to the real life effects of his actions. There's still a disconnect there, and maybe it's a defense mechanism...
Maybe the kids are what your RABF actually feels the worst about, and so he just shuts down or denies to cope. I'll tell you, not one of my loser addict parents EVER acknowledged what they put their children through...they blame us subtly, avoid and abandon us, criticize and put us down constantly. Does he do this? Watch for that sort of thing, please. If your RABF truly cares about his kids, then it might just be too painful for him to face just yet, but I believe that sometimes addict parents have a way of minimizing their own guilt by minimizing the effects their drinking has had on their kids, and they might even go so far as to dislike, subtly abuse, or avoid the children.
I would talk to him about it. One thing my RABF is adamant about is working an honest program and bringing everything out into the open so resentments don't bottle up on either side... this, of course, did not take effect until his post 5th step transformation, but... if he's far enough along into his recovery he can handle an honest chat.
My RABF owned up to a lot of havoc he caused after his 4th and 5th steps. It's weird though...he'll verbalize his remorse, but then seem clueless as to why I haven't wanted to go public with our romance so soon, or to the real life effects of his actions. There's still a disconnect there, and maybe it's a defense mechanism...Maybe the kids are what your RABF actually feels the worst about, and so he just shuts down or denies to cope. I'll tell you, not one of my loser addict parents EVER acknowledged what they put their children through...they blame us subtly, avoid and abandon us, criticize and put us down constantly. Does he do this? Watch for that sort of thing, please. If your RABF truly cares about his kids, then it might just be too painful for him to face just yet, but I believe that sometimes addict parents have a way of minimizing their own guilt by minimizing the effects their drinking has had on their kids, and they might even go so far as to dislike, subtly abuse, or avoid the children.
I would talk to him about it. One thing my RABF is adamant about is working an honest program and bringing everything out into the open so resentments don't bottle up on either side... this, of course, did not take effect until his post 5th step transformation, but... if he's far enough along into his recovery he can handle an honest chat.
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I'm guessing it is that fog. He loves them and is great with them and I have seen him contrite before. Which is why I was almost shocked at the disconnection. Guilt is one of those things that probably make the drinker want to drink to cover the pain of it. Maybe that is why he is avoiding it because he will have to deal with it sober without numbing. I've been in very painful situations where simply processing my pain was too much so I shut down, went almost numb. And guilt is sort of a useless emotion, it is actions that count.
But I was proud of myself that I didn't even involve or give him any input because it doesnt involve me. I am not going to help him clean up his mess AT ALL, not gonna touch any issues of his past with a ten foot pole! No sireebob.
And yes mediation (meditation is harder to type sorry). Shopping therapy is always helpful in my book
But I was proud of myself that I didn't even involve or give him any input because it doesnt involve me. I am not going to help him clean up his mess AT ALL, not gonna touch any issues of his past with a ten foot pole! No sireebob.
And yes mediation (meditation is harder to type sorry). Shopping therapy is always helpful in my book
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Nicam: good insight. Thankfully he is very loving and attentive. Loves talking about them and they are doing great considering what theyve been through. He is always thrilled when they get to do something with him or seek him out. He is a good dad in terms of behavior directly with the kids.
It is the largest part of his pain for sure. And probably too much to bear at this point. He never minimizes so I was kind of shocked at his thought process.
It is the largest part of his pain for sure. And probably too much to bear at this point. He never minimizes so I was kind of shocked at his thought process.
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I read an article that used that particular phrase: alcoholics have a very difficult time "connecting the dots" emotionally, particularly in regards to the effects of their addiction.
I used to scream at my aexh about the obvious negative effects of choices he made. Turns out what I could see quite clearly, wasn't obvious at all to him.
It seemed to me at the time that the only possible way to be so $#@^& obtuse was to have a deep desire not to see. Now, I'm not so sure. I welcome insight too, but I finally filed that effect under "I don't get it" and moved on.
I used to scream at my aexh about the obvious negative effects of choices he made. Turns out what I could see quite clearly, wasn't obvious at all to him.
It seemed to me at the time that the only possible way to be so $#@^& obtuse was to have a deep desire not to see. Now, I'm not so sure. I welcome insight too, but I finally filed that effect under "I don't get it" and moved on.
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I'm enormously triggered by this post - yet riveted - waiting for the replies and trying to keep mine pertinent. I have seen exactly what you are talking about. I can't wrap my brain around it and can't even guess at what lies behind it. My xah has a daughter he detached from (and eventually signed away his parental rights and discontinued all contact) before we were married. I really really really wish I would have seen that for the enormous, stadium sized, red flag that it was. To see him begin to detach from our children is heartbreaking for me and devestating for them. I don't get it.
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Approaching five years sober, mine still doesn't "get it." He's taking the kids to Italy for vacation after Christmas. I had a conversation with my son the other night where he said his dad thinks he can just make up for years of being an irresponsible parent by taking them on a trip. And, unfortunately, I see his point. When we were married, he always tried to "buy" his way out of problems with gifts and such. This is just more of the same. Probably learned it from his dad, and maybe his dad learned it from his.
I guess my point is, don't hold your breath waiting for him to "get it." Maybe he never will.
L
Edit to add: I was once worried about him being the "disneyland dad," while I did all the responsible day-to-day stuff with the children. Turns out, they see right through that. They know who they can count on and who they can't when the chips are down. Sad for him, but his choice.
I guess my point is, don't hold your breath waiting for him to "get it." Maybe he never will.
L
Edit to add: I was once worried about him being the "disneyland dad," while I did all the responsible day-to-day stuff with the children. Turns out, they see right through that. They know who they can count on and who they can't when the chips are down. Sad for him, but his choice.
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Great responses. Thanks. It would be sad to think that this is the start of him detaching more from them after he realizes he can't go back and undo what has happened. Sort of like giving up on himself as a dad. If you are constantly told how much you messed up you probably start to feel like there is no hope and just give up trying, esp after causing so much pain to so many people for a sustained amount of time.
My friend spot on identified why this conversation bothered me. First because I am a mom and I can empathize as a mother trying to protect her kids from a dad who has a serious issue. And because it reminds me how ill he still is. How much work he has yet to do and why I will not entertain bringing chaos into my own life until he really is successful at sustained recovery. It is too early to tell and it is going to be a much longer road than I thought.
My friend spot on identified why this conversation bothered me. First because I am a mom and I can empathize as a mother trying to protect her kids from a dad who has a serious issue. And because it reminds me how ill he still is. How much work he has yet to do and why I will not entertain bringing chaos into my own life until he really is successful at sustained recovery. It is too early to tell and it is going to be a much longer road than I thought.
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Perhaps the trick is to switch the focus from themselves to the children. I'm not sure when that happens and don't know how to predict if it will happen. It must take a ton of courage and recovery and I would think a personality that allows them to 'get it' at the very core.
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sounds like a red flag for you (would be for me too, in my experience, how potential male partners treat their exes/mothers is a big predictor of how they will treat me eventually), do you have a time limit on how long you are prepared to wait to see if he does change his attitude? this might after-all be who he is, alcoholism not-withstanding or who he will be from now on, I've learnt a very hard way that hanging onto someone's potential isn't a good option for me. if he never did change this particular attitude would that be okay with you? - it might well be and if so that's fine (these are not critisisms, just things to think about).
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Originally Posted by LaTeeDa 
Edit to add: I was once worried about him being the "disneyland dad," while I did all the responsible day-to-day stuff with the children. Turns out, they see right through that. They know who they can count on and who they can't when the chips are down. Sad for him, but his choice.
Trying to manipulate a little kid, which REALLY rubs me wrong. I bite my tongue to suppress asking "Have you tried sobering up yet, I hear it's much cheaper than buying things"?
Any way, it's good to hear that the kids "get it", at least.
One final thought, and I've mentioned this before.....I'm a GUY, and from being around other guys, I can sorta see how the kids can be left behind, I've know plenty who have and weren't even alcoholics. My dad hauled ass when I was little and oddly, now I'm glad he did. He's the reason why I couldn't leave LMC behind.
As it turns out, a COUPLE of more "final" thoughts!
Society has sold us on the idea that dads are "expendable", and not of near the importance that moms are. I guess some dads use that to justify the dismissal of their parental duties. I'm of the belief that BOTH are very important, married and together or not.
But I'll never be able to wrap my head around how a MOTHER, who actually grew a kid in their own body, can choose booze over their own flesh and blood. If I live to be 100 I'll never "get that". No more judgment, just not understanding.
If any body reading this ever wonders where THEY, as a spouse or significant other, fall in the pecking order in relation to alcohol, I hope you are paying attention.
Like some one else said, I just have to file that in the "I'll never understand it" drawer and not give it any more thought. I've "Let it go".
Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
P.S. If anyone meets a "nice" divorced guy, who doesn't put his kids before you, I'd keep looking.
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This is where my anger comes in at my AH. After all of the arguments, the police calls I could bang my head against the wall. Never in my wildest dreams could I let anything I love come before my husband and my kids. I love chocolate but if my AH told me to never eat a piece or it was over my chocolate loving days would be over!
I have to learn to let it go I suppose. To not even go there because maybe AH will never ever get what he has done to me. How he has broken my heart so many times that I do not even believe I love him anymore.
I have to learn to let it go I suppose. To not even go there because maybe AH will never ever get what he has done to me. How he has broken my heart so many times that I do not even believe I love him anymore.
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Addictions don't care if you have kids, loved ones, jobs, money. It's an equal opportunity disease. I see lots of people in the AA and NA meetings desperately trying to clean themselves up and regain joint custody of their kids. These are the folks that are extremely serious about getting the program, they have a wonderful goal to reach. It's easy to judge people but all bets are off when dealing with active addiction, until the person finds recovery and sanity then they realize the people they've lost to the disease. I am so thankful I did not have to experience that devastating loss but I do have compassion for people that are working hard to get their kids back.
It is however hard to understand how someone could do this but the answer is they've not climbed out of the pit of insanity yet. They are still active in the illness.
It is however hard to understand how someone could do this but the answer is they've not climbed out of the pit of insanity yet. They are still active in the illness.
Last edited by meditation; 11-16-2010 at 12:07 PM. Reason: fixed typo
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The only person I have known who got clean and/or sober and "got it" when it came to his kids was a guy who was involved with a woman who was just as much an addict and an alcoholic as he was. In other words, they were "partners in crime." He got clean and sober, she didn't, and he got full legal custody of the child. He is a single Dad, just like our Coyote, and he does his very best to be a good father, and to take care of and provide for his young child. Whether or not his BEST will ever meet up to anyone else's expectations of what he SHOULD BE or SHOULD DO, I do not know. But I admire him for what he is doing because he is doing the best he can.
Most people I know who were actively alcoholic or addicted but got clean, remained to be mostly who they have always been, just a clean and sober version. Some people are not what we think a good parent would or should be and do not have the ability to be without significant change. And, IMO, in a lot of cases I would say it's BEST that the alcoholic or addict stay as far away from their children as possible. BabyBlue, you may have to accept that RABF will never "get it."
My alcoholic father was not, and is not, a good parent by any rational person's standard. He loved most of his children, yes, but was a poor parent. He is still a poor parent. Do I judge him for it or hold it against him? No. Because doing so only serves to keep me mired in negativity and resentment--which do NOT bring serenity. I am an adult and it has been my journey to heal from that childhood, to discover who I am, and to continue to learn and grow. It is outside of my control to determine who is allowed to procreate on Earth and it is equally outside of my control to make sure that people who do choose to procreate, treat their children the way they "should." But it is NOT outside of my control to choose NOT TO procreate with an alcoholic or addicted person. And, in fact, in 1997 I made a conscious decision to literally "protect my unborn children from being born of an alcoholic or addicted man."
Most people I know who were actively alcoholic or addicted but got clean, remained to be mostly who they have always been, just a clean and sober version. Some people are not what we think a good parent would or should be and do not have the ability to be without significant change. And, IMO, in a lot of cases I would say it's BEST that the alcoholic or addict stay as far away from their children as possible. BabyBlue, you may have to accept that RABF will never "get it."
My alcoholic father was not, and is not, a good parent by any rational person's standard. He loved most of his children, yes, but was a poor parent. He is still a poor parent. Do I judge him for it or hold it against him? No. Because doing so only serves to keep me mired in negativity and resentment--which do NOT bring serenity. I am an adult and it has been my journey to heal from that childhood, to discover who I am, and to continue to learn and grow. It is outside of my control to determine who is allowed to procreate on Earth and it is equally outside of my control to make sure that people who do choose to procreate, treat their children the way they "should." But it is NOT outside of my control to choose NOT TO procreate with an alcoholic or addicted person. And, in fact, in 1997 I made a conscious decision to literally "protect my unborn children from being born of an alcoholic or addicted man."
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sorry, I am confused here...how long has he been in recovery....? because recovery is an everyday work an HONEST PROGRAM...if they dont have that...what do they have? just curious...if you are seriously dating this man, have you thought of AL ANON? its a two way street, has he not brought this up to you for you to go....
posted by coyate--
P.S. If anyone meets a "nice" divorced guy, who doesn't put his kids before you, I'd keep looking.
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I so agree with this....but i am a single mom
posted by coyate--
P.S. If anyone meets a "nice" divorced guy, who doesn't put his kids before you, I'd keep looking.
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I so agree with this....but i am a single mom
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This time in recovery? a month. Very early on which is why I put that into the mix when I think about what he said. When he had recovery for a longer period, he did seem to try to work hard at fixing things and providing. So that is a hopeful sign. That is if he doesn't give up on his ability to be a dad altogether because of seeing himself as a failed father. That would be sad and yeah, very problematic for me.
For me the jury is still out, it is too soon and I answered my own question but all this feedback really is great and helpful. I have no timeline. I am also under no illusions and am filing away all this info should things get more serious, and only when he has a good deal of recovery time under his belt. (why do I have a feeling that this last sentence is going to come back to haunt me...)
For me the jury is still out, it is too soon and I answered my own question but all this feedback really is great and helpful. I have no timeline. I am also under no illusions and am filing away all this info should things get more serious, and only when he has a good deal of recovery time under his belt. (why do I have a feeling that this last sentence is going to come back to haunt me...)
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To me, the 64,000 question was: When will I get it? When I totally focused on me...I got it How he interacted with others was his business, his deal, not mine. How I interacted with others was my business. I learned I could not compensate for his bad behavior, and, then I learned that it was not my concern.
Just my thoughts.
Just my thoughts.
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