What happens and what we say about what happens
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
What happens and what we say about what happens
Its pack up and move out week at our house.
I'm moving to a new job, new state. AH is moving down the street to a smaller place (yay! for him saving money!).
Its been a wonderful week, inasmuch as I am in a good place with him. I have connected to my deep love and appreciation of him (I prefer that to annoyance, anger, sadness, etc.!). He is a good man. Kind. Loving.
AND he is where he is.
There is a theme with much of the self-development stuff I have done and that is: there is what happens and there is what we say about what happens. What I mean is, for example, your car breaks down. That is the "what happened". From there we attach all sorts of meanings. "I'm going to be late! I can't afford this! This is a terrible time! I just got it fixed; those mechanics must have done something wrong!" On and on.
The spiritual work for me is to see all of that "meaning-making" for what it is. When I can do it, it gives me incredible emotional freedom and ease! Then, all there is to do is to deal with the Now. Deal with the broken car. It brings me lowered drama, suffering, etc.
In talking to my AH last night, I was reminded that he does not have this distinction. For him, what he feels and thinks about what happens is REALITY. Not only could he not change his perspective if he wanted to...he doesn't WANT to. (but if he would just WANT TO, then maybe...LOL!)
So, when I try to talk about his issues and addictions, to him that MEANS he is an awful, terrible person. That MEANS I hate him. That MEANS that I think he is an awful, terrible person.
Now, it doesn't for me, but his feelings and perspective and meanings are so strong, he is SURE he knows how I feel and what it all means.
I have gone around and around about trying to get him to see that he is believing a made up story of what all this means. He is believing a made up story about how I feel instead of listening to and believing how I really feel. His "meaning making machine" is blocking our ability to communicate. Its blocking his ability to just hear me and work with me. Its blocking his ability to face his problems and to heal or grow or change.
I have been angry about it. Disappointed. Bereft. Dramatic. All in an attempt to just talk honestly about drinking and depression.
No good.
And there is that pesky "trying to get him to see..."!
Boy, that fails every time, doesn't it??!?
That wonderful controlling for their own good!
Me wanting him to see it my way. The "real" way, right? The "healthy" way? The "mature" way? The "enlightened" way? (My enlightenment is brighter than your enlightenment?) LOL!
~~~
My AH is a lovely man. A bit moody sometimes. Can be defensive. All and all, wonderful. His drinking does not get in the way of our relationship.
BUT his lying and sneaking with it does.
His denial about his lying and sneaking does.
His inability to talk to me about it without going to Crazy Town does.
And that's enough for me to say
I love him AND I need a partner who is honest.
I love him AND I need a partner who is communicative.
I love him AND I am moving out.
I am moving to a place with friends and work where I can work on me.
It breaks my heart to know he feels so negative about himself. At the same time, I recognize that is not my job.
So, onward. Trying to continually ask myself, "What is happening and what are you making it mean?"
The "what is happening" is moving. The meaning I am trying to observe when it pops up and say, "Oh! There's some more meaning I am creating."
What will happen next? Will we divorce? At this point, I don't know. Likely.
Right now, I am giving myself permission to do this one step. Move. We'll see what I am ready for after that.
I send you all love and
Peace
I'm moving to a new job, new state. AH is moving down the street to a smaller place (yay! for him saving money!).
Its been a wonderful week, inasmuch as I am in a good place with him. I have connected to my deep love and appreciation of him (I prefer that to annoyance, anger, sadness, etc.!). He is a good man. Kind. Loving.
AND he is where he is.
There is a theme with much of the self-development stuff I have done and that is: there is what happens and there is what we say about what happens. What I mean is, for example, your car breaks down. That is the "what happened". From there we attach all sorts of meanings. "I'm going to be late! I can't afford this! This is a terrible time! I just got it fixed; those mechanics must have done something wrong!" On and on.
The spiritual work for me is to see all of that "meaning-making" for what it is. When I can do it, it gives me incredible emotional freedom and ease! Then, all there is to do is to deal with the Now. Deal with the broken car. It brings me lowered drama, suffering, etc.
In talking to my AH last night, I was reminded that he does not have this distinction. For him, what he feels and thinks about what happens is REALITY. Not only could he not change his perspective if he wanted to...he doesn't WANT to. (but if he would just WANT TO, then maybe...LOL!)
So, when I try to talk about his issues and addictions, to him that MEANS he is an awful, terrible person. That MEANS I hate him. That MEANS that I think he is an awful, terrible person.
Now, it doesn't for me, but his feelings and perspective and meanings are so strong, he is SURE he knows how I feel and what it all means.
I have gone around and around about trying to get him to see that he is believing a made up story of what all this means. He is believing a made up story about how I feel instead of listening to and believing how I really feel. His "meaning making machine" is blocking our ability to communicate. Its blocking his ability to just hear me and work with me. Its blocking his ability to face his problems and to heal or grow or change.
I have been angry about it. Disappointed. Bereft. Dramatic. All in an attempt to just talk honestly about drinking and depression.
No good.
And there is that pesky "trying to get him to see..."!
Boy, that fails every time, doesn't it??!?
That wonderful controlling for their own good!
Me wanting him to see it my way. The "real" way, right? The "healthy" way? The "mature" way? The "enlightened" way? (My enlightenment is brighter than your enlightenment?) LOL!
~~~
My AH is a lovely man. A bit moody sometimes. Can be defensive. All and all, wonderful. His drinking does not get in the way of our relationship.
BUT his lying and sneaking with it does.
His denial about his lying and sneaking does.
His inability to talk to me about it without going to Crazy Town does.
And that's enough for me to say
I love him AND I need a partner who is honest.
I love him AND I need a partner who is communicative.
I love him AND I am moving out.
I am moving to a place with friends and work where I can work on me.
It breaks my heart to know he feels so negative about himself. At the same time, I recognize that is not my job.
So, onward. Trying to continually ask myself, "What is happening and what are you making it mean?"
The "what is happening" is moving. The meaning I am trying to observe when it pops up and say, "Oh! There's some more meaning I am creating."
What will happen next? Will we divorce? At this point, I don't know. Likely.
Right now, I am giving myself permission to do this one step. Move. We'll see what I am ready for after that.
I send you all love and
Peace
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 10,182
There is a theme with much of the self-development stuff I have done and that is: there is what happens and there is what we say about what happens. What I mean is, for example, your car breaks down. That is the "what happened". From there we attach all sorts of meanings. "I'm going to be late! I can't afford this! This is a terrible time! I just got it fixed; those mechanics must have done something wrong!" On and on.
The spiritual work for me is to see all of that "meaning-making" for what it is. When I can do it, it gives me incredible emotional freedom and ease! Then, all there is to do is to deal with the Now. Deal with the broken car. It brings me lowered drama, suffering, etc.
The spiritual work for me is to see all of that "meaning-making" for what it is. When I can do it, it gives me incredible emotional freedom and ease! Then, all there is to do is to deal with the Now. Deal with the broken car. It brings me lowered drama, suffering, etc.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
So, I came across old journals. What was I writing about? My husband's feelings of inadequacy. His defensiveness and shut down and denial about his defensiveness and denial and shut down. LOL!
I was concerned about it for as long as I knew him, but it didn't occur as a deal breaker. I know everyone is flawed. I didn't want to disregard this great guy because I was looking for perfection. He had communication issues, but then I figured, so did most husbands of women I know.
So my question to you wise women is: how do you know what will become a big issue? How do you figure it?
Have you looked back and seen the red flags that were there all along? What had you overlook them? What have you learned for the next go round? What those of you with years of recovery look for in terms of communication?
I was concerned about it for as long as I knew him, but it didn't occur as a deal breaker. I know everyone is flawed. I didn't want to disregard this great guy because I was looking for perfection. He had communication issues, but then I figured, so did most husbands of women I know.
So my question to you wise women is: how do you know what will become a big issue? How do you figure it?
Have you looked back and seen the red flags that were there all along? What had you overlook them? What have you learned for the next go round? What those of you with years of recovery look for in terms of communication?
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 344
Originally Posted by FindingPeace1 
So, I came across old journals. What was I writing about? My husband's feelings of inadequacy. His defensiveness and shut down and denial about his defensiveness and denial and shut down. LOL!
I was concerned about it for as long as I knew him, but it didn't occur as a deal breaker. I know everyone is flawed. I didn't want to disregard this great guy because I was looking for perfection. He had communication issues, but then I figured, so did most husbands of women I know.
So my question to you wise women is: how do you know what will become a big issue? How do you figure it? Have you looked back and seen the red flags that were there all along? What had you overlook them? What have you learned for the next go round? What those of you with years of recovery look for in terms of communication?
I was concerned about it for as long as I knew him, but it didn't occur as a deal breaker. I know everyone is flawed. I didn't want to disregard this great guy because I was looking for perfection. He had communication issues, but then I figured, so did most husbands of women I know.
So my question to you wise women is: how do you know what will become a big issue? How do you figure it? Have you looked back and seen the red flags that were there all along? What had you overlook them? What have you learned for the next go round? What those of you with years of recovery look for in terms of communication?
Coupled with low self-esteem and sabotage, of course.
How do you know what will become a big issue...
Look at how you feel. If you feel bad--and I'm assuming you felt bad A LOT, then there you go. The unhealthiness made you sick too. If one partner is sick, the other is sick by association. There's no escaping that in a marriage, because it is a union.
So it isn't some huge issue that is needed--such as physically abusing you--for you to feel so very badly about life, yourself, your marriage. The red flag isn't abuse in this case, it's how you feel. And how you feel is ENOUGH for you to remove yourself from the situation. You don't need a physical war to justify your need to remove yourself from it.
Your feelings count! Your feelings count!
You need to feel better. You feel sick. You need to get well. The path to wellness, is to detach. You are doing that. You're doing what you need to do to save yourself.
And that's the only person you can save. So you might as well save one of you, since you can't save both of you.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
Thanks, brokenheart.
I am now exploring the red flag issue.
I recognize we overlook things we are not ready to deal with...
I am mystified by my own inability to see things as they are. My own denial.
I am looking for guidance to SEE what is there...
Like you said, subtle feelings of unease are important. Of course, sometimes they are just a bit of unease to be released!
I have done a ton of "I don't want to be judgmental" in the past. A ton of "its none of my business" and "everyone has problems". I know I CAN be judgmental and up in other people's business. I know I can look to other people to fix their problems so I avoid my own. All of this makes me want to dismiss my feelings when I see red flags.
Of course, I connect seeing a problem and that they have to fix it! LOL! I could see a problem and, instead, have that mean I have an opportunity to protect myself.
This is where the growth comes in, I think. Allowing myself to see what doesn't work and having the courage to walk away.
I am now exploring the red flag issue.
I recognize we overlook things we are not ready to deal with...
I am mystified by my own inability to see things as they are. My own denial.
I am looking for guidance to SEE what is there...
Like you said, subtle feelings of unease are important. Of course, sometimes they are just a bit of unease to be released!
I have done a ton of "I don't want to be judgmental" in the past. A ton of "its none of my business" and "everyone has problems". I know I CAN be judgmental and up in other people's business. I know I can look to other people to fix their problems so I avoid my own. All of this makes me want to dismiss my feelings when I see red flags.
Of course, I connect seeing a problem and that they have to fix it! LOL! I could see a problem and, instead, have that mean I have an opportunity to protect myself.
This is where the growth comes in, I think. Allowing myself to see what doesn't work and having the courage to walk away.
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,149
Excellent post! lots of great stuff for me in there, thank you. feelings are not facts, indeed
I think we also learn by experience.
Sometimes it's not a case of ignoring red flags its more not knowing that this is a red flag for us, or will become one.
we all change, things that do not bother me now may bother me very much when I am infirm and dependent on someone for care, things that did not bother me as a student did bother me when I became a parent. Sometimes only time and experience will tell me what I can and can't deal with. That is part of the human condition, and is not limited to those who have loved addicts.
What do you know about what you want in a partner that you didn't know before?
that the ability to communicate is critical for you? that if we try out with someone and love them but despite that it doesn't work, the world doesn't end, that we will be OK?
I think we also learn by experience.
Sometimes it's not a case of ignoring red flags its more not knowing that this is a red flag for us, or will become one.
we all change, things that do not bother me now may bother me very much when I am infirm and dependent on someone for care, things that did not bother me as a student did bother me when I became a parent. Sometimes only time and experience will tell me what I can and can't deal with. That is part of the human condition, and is not limited to those who have loved addicts.
What do you know about what you want in a partner that you didn't know before?
that the ability to communicate is critical for you? that if we try out with someone and love them but despite that it doesn't work, the world doesn't end, that we will be OK?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
I love you, JenT!!
yes! yes! That's it!
And the idea that - that which did not bother us before may bother us now - is so...kind. So gentle. (When I'm not looking I can get very hard on myself or others and I love when I am reminded to care for myself and others gently!)
Its also so real for me! It was getting pregnant that had me see that the things I had overlooked before wouldn't work. I couldn't see that before.
And that's okay.
I can only gain enlightenment as I do. (Just as my AH can only gain his enlightenment as he does, in his own time - and that's okay.)
What a wonderful reminder this is not *terrible* or * awful* or *the worst thing that ever happened to me* but that it is "part of the human condition".
Hooray! Hooray!
As Krishnamurti (and Eastern spiritual teacher) said, "You wanna know my secret?...
I don't mind what happens."
How profound. It just is part of life life-ing. It is part of the human condition. It is okay. And I can move forward.
Love it.
Okay! On a practical note...
What did I learn I want?
Well, to be honest, in my friends and family I see a lot of men who can't communicate well. I don't want to slam men! I think men CAN do it. I don't know if they are socially or biologically driven to be less expressive/in tune, but often they are that way.
I have a fear that wanting a man to communicate is really wanting a man to communicate like a woman or wanting a man to communicate like me and that won't work.
I feel like I don't know when to let them be and accept them as is and when to say, "this is something I need". I don't know what is "normal".
I have straight friends (and even my lesbian friend who's wife is just the same - shut down & defensive around disagreements) who are in long term marriages and have just made it work with their non-communicative partners. SO...are they out there? Men that are in touch with their feelings? Men that can see if I don't like their behavior it doesn't mean I don't like them? Men that can own their issues? Men that can open up and be vulnerable? Where are they? How common are they?
Am I off base? What do you think about all this?
yes! yes! That's it!
And the idea that - that which did not bother us before may bother us now - is so...kind. So gentle. (When I'm not looking I can get very hard on myself or others and I love when I am reminded to care for myself and others gently!)
Its also so real for me! It was getting pregnant that had me see that the things I had overlooked before wouldn't work. I couldn't see that before.
And that's okay.
I can only gain enlightenment as I do. (Just as my AH can only gain his enlightenment as he does, in his own time - and that's okay.)
What a wonderful reminder this is not *terrible* or * awful* or *the worst thing that ever happened to me* but that it is "part of the human condition".
Hooray! Hooray!
As Krishnamurti (and Eastern spiritual teacher) said, "You wanna know my secret?...
I don't mind what happens."
How profound. It just is part of life life-ing. It is part of the human condition. It is okay. And I can move forward.
Love it.
Okay! On a practical note...
What did I learn I want?
Well, to be honest, in my friends and family I see a lot of men who can't communicate well. I don't want to slam men! I think men CAN do it. I don't know if they are socially or biologically driven to be less expressive/in tune, but often they are that way.
I have a fear that wanting a man to communicate is really wanting a man to communicate like a woman or wanting a man to communicate like me and that won't work.
I feel like I don't know when to let them be and accept them as is and when to say, "this is something I need". I don't know what is "normal".
I have straight friends (and even my lesbian friend who's wife is just the same - shut down & defensive around disagreements) who are in long term marriages and have just made it work with their non-communicative partners. SO...are they out there? Men that are in touch with their feelings? Men that can see if I don't like their behavior it doesn't mean I don't like them? Men that can own their issues? Men that can open up and be vulnerable? Where are they? How common are they?
Am I off base? What do you think about all this?
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 223
Originally Posted by FindingPeace1
Okay! On a practical note...
What did I learn I want?
Well, to be honest, in my friends and family I see a lot of men who can't communicate well. I don't want to slam men! I think men CAN do it. I don't know if they are socially or biologically driven to be less expressive/in tune, but often they are that way.
I have a fear that wanting a man to communicate is really wanting a man to communicate like a woman or wanting a man to communicate like me and that won't work.
I feel like I don't know when to let them be and accept them as is and when to say, "this is something I need". I don't know what is "normal".
I have straight friends (and even my lesbian friend who's wife is just the same - shut down & defensive around disagreements) who are in long term marriages and have just made it work with their non-communicative partners. SO...are they out there? Men that are in touch with their feelings? Men that can see if I don't like their behavior it doesn't mean I don't like them? Men that can own their issues? Men that can open up and be vulnerable? Where are they? How common are they?
Am I off base? What do you think about all this?
What did I learn I want?
Well, to be honest, in my friends and family I see a lot of men who can't communicate well. I don't want to slam men! I think men CAN do it. I don't know if they are socially or biologically driven to be less expressive/in tune, but often they are that way.
I have a fear that wanting a man to communicate is really wanting a man to communicate like a woman or wanting a man to communicate like me and that won't work.
I feel like I don't know when to let them be and accept them as is and when to say, "this is something I need". I don't know what is "normal".
I have straight friends (and even my lesbian friend who's wife is just the same - shut down & defensive around disagreements) who are in long term marriages and have just made it work with their non-communicative partners. SO...are they out there? Men that are in touch with their feelings? Men that can see if I don't like their behavior it doesn't mean I don't like them? Men that can own their issues? Men that can open up and be vulnerable? Where are they? How common are they?
Am I off base? What do you think about all this?
There are so many points you have made that I would like to touch on, I hope I don't start to ramble.
#1 I do believe that men and women communicate differently. But one thing I have learned is that as long as it is done with respect, that is "normal", well at least a normal that I want.
#2 Men who are "in touch with their feelings" is sometimes over rated. One of my very dear male friends is overly in touch with his feelings and it is at times tedious. I know it is a double standard, and I can listen to my girlfriends go on for hours discussing their feelings, but when it comes to him, after five minutes I start to become annoyed. I'm not sure why that is, maybe it is because I feel that he's overly dramatic and would be a much happier person if he were to not sweat the small stuff. I think there needs to be a balance. The man I am involved with buries a lot of his feelings. Due to the line of work he is in he's been through and seen so many horrific things, so when he does open up and share some of that it is significant and it isn't trivial.
#3 Generally, men show their feelings differently. I used to be big on words, and feeling valued by what a man says. I have found that alcoholics are big on words but fall short on action. In my mind a "normal" man, may be at a loss for flowery words, but if they prove loyalty, love, and devotion through their actions, that is a million times better than anything they could ever say.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
Originally Posted by FindingPeace1
I feel like I don't know when to let them be and accept them as is and when to say, "this is something I need". I don't know what is "normal".
It doesn't matter what normal is. It matters what you need. The only way I see to having a good relationship is to accept the other as is, AND to be getting what you need. Settling for anything less under the guise of "normal" is just a heartache waiting to happen.
JMHO,
L
P.S. It's good to see you back!
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 277
I wrote this poem in my twenties ..
"I love you, but, " is all I can say.
"I love you, but some things get in the way."
I know it sounds funny and I know it sounds strange
There are parts of you I wish I could change.
I don't know what else to do.
I want all of me to love all of you.
Fitting, yes?
"I love you, but, " is all I can say.
"I love you, but some things get in the way."
I know it sounds funny and I know it sounds strange
There are parts of you I wish I could change.
I don't know what else to do.
I want all of me to love all of you.
Fitting, yes?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
hmbld - I think that is a lot of where I am at. Seeing that I have a skewed perspective on relationships and trying to find some balance.
LTD - In other words, I need to find my balance or my normal. You know what's funny? When I typed the word normal I heard your voice in my head saying what you said to me. SR has been with me, even when I've been away! It is wonderful to see you here, as well!
whereis - appropo, yes! Thanks!
You know, I found the No More Mr. Nice Guy discussion board yesterday and was lurking and reading and was impressed at those men working on their stuff. Of course, those guys are recovering codies just like us (and I'd like someone that has balance in their life and is not an addict of some kind...one day...), but they are doing the work (in a different, man-way) by looking at their behavior and feelings and fears and choices. It just gave me hope.
peace
LTD - In other words, I need to find my balance or my normal.
You know what's funny? When I typed the word normal I heard your voice in my head saying what you said to me. SR has been with me, even when I've been away! It is wonderful to see you here, as well!whereis - appropo, yes! Thanks!
You know, I found the No More Mr. Nice Guy discussion board yesterday and was lurking and reading and was impressed at those men working on their stuff. Of course, those guys are recovering codies just like us (and I'd like someone that has balance in their life and is not an addict of some kind...one day...), but they are doing the work (in a different, man-way) by looking at their behavior and feelings and fears and choices. It just gave me hope.
peace
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
My daughter came to my office one day when I was going through a hard time. She wrote a bunch of slogans on pieces of paper and stuck them all over my office. This was about three years ago, and they are all still there.
My favorite one is this:
Your life is not determined by what happens to you.
It is determined by YOUR REACTION to what happens to you.
L
My favorite one is this:
Your life is not determined by what happens to you.
It is determined by YOUR REACTION to what happens to you.
L
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
