HealingWillCome

Found out a huge lie last night about XABF and how his marriage ended. He had told me they had drifted apart after 17 years and finally decided to go their separate ways.

Turns out...it ended because of an affair he had...with a woman he was then with for years who eventually cheated on him. He told me a couple of times during our two years together that "not once in his 17-year marriage did he ever cheat." Wow.....

This morning, I learned that he is stringing along another woman while still with current GF...same thing he tried to do to me all summer, but I wouldn't bite.

I am thankful to know these things, but incredibly ANGRY today. I'm angry at him for the lies, and at myself for believing them. But, damn, he's good at it. I've read so many, many times on SR about the lies that alcoholics/addicts tell, but then I get caught up in looking for the good in people. It's sometimes hard for me to wrap my mind around the fact that this man is a master manipulator. Even when the evidence is right there, I somehow let myself think..."it can't be that bad...no one can lie that much...and hurt the people they love...the people who care about them." He hurts everyone in his path.

I had been praying for the truth. God always reveals it to me when I ask him to...I got a double dose of it in the past 12 hours. Hurts, but I needed it. Letting go is easier when the truth is revealed.

Needed to come here to vent. This is affecting my attitude today.

nodaybut2day

Oh I completely understand how you feel. I've been where you are, but I can tell you that it does get better with time.

If you ever re-read my past posts, you'll know that my XAH was a MASTER liar, and that I naively swallowed it all down for years. Eventually though, the truth started dripping out, mostly through my X-MIL, and still today, I find out the truth about "old lies" he told me.

All the stories about his childhood: lies.
All the stories about his criminal past: HUGE exaggerations and blatant lies.
All the stories about his previous partners and how he was victimzed by them: lies.
All the storis about his family: Major distortions and LIES.

My reaction now is just..."huh. Unbelievable. What a jerk....moving right along." Where he is concerned, I have come to expect that EVERYTHING was a lie. Sure, it hurts. But strangely, it also comforts me to know that I am not the first person he has duped. Oh no. He went through his entire family before moving onto girlfriends and wives, as well as the authorities of 2 countries. He's a Master Liar with a capital "M" and my initial belief in his statements is no reflection on my worth as a person.

I do however proceed rather carefully now. I often find myself asking myself if a person is being honest with me or if I am being too naive. I'm quite glad that I've learnt to tread more carefully.

LexieCat

Funny, but the biggest liar I ever hooked up with wasn't even an alcoholic or addict. He didn't cheat on me (so far as I know--and he was ALWAYS around, so I don't know when he'd have had time to do it), but he spun all kinds of bs stories about his past.

I think on some level I thought they sounded, um, WEIRD, but I couldn't imagine making all that stuff up.

HealingWillCome

Noday...ughhh...what a nightmare for you. When someone lies to that extent, yes, they have it mastered. It blows my mind when I hear stories like yours. I have also been very naive in the past...I tend to take people at their word far too easily sometimes.

My fear is not ever trusting again, although I did date an incredible guy for several months right before my liar A. His character and integrity were ROCK SOLID. I was foolish to let him go, so foolish. But at least I know there really ARE good men out there like him.

Lexie, I've known people like that too. I'm a teacher and I've seen it in too many of my students over the years.

As for my XABF, he probably started lying as soon as he could talk. He lived in fear of his AF all of his life, still does.

After what I've learned in the last day, I'm starting to question a whole lot more of what he told me over two years. Not that it matters at this point, but it is still mind boggling to me that people can lie like they do.

LexieCat

LOL,

I just gotta share this. I'd already told the lying ex that, for a variety of reasons, I wanted to break up. I was giving him a little time to find a new place to live.

One night (and yes, I was drinking, and I was already pissed off) I decided to run one of those online "background checks"--with info culled from credit reports, public records, etc. It showed he had been lying to me about his AGE for FIVE YEARS. He'd always told me he was two years younger than I. This showed that he was actually five years OLDER than I.

I knew he had just had to order his birth certificate for a new driver's license, so I pulled it out of his wallet, and sure enough.

I woke him up and told him he was getting out the next day. And I stayed home to make sure he did. (It was my apartment to begin with.)

I'd already caught him in other lies, and I'd actually asked him several times about his age because certain things he'd told me (about how old he was when he and his ex-wife had started dating, for example) didn't quite make sense. Lying about one's age isn't the biggest deal in the world, but it was like a lightbulb went on and I suddenly realized I couldn't believe a single thing he ever said. And I couldn't stand living with him another second.

He made the alcoholics in my life look like models of honesty.

Learn2Live

I like to think, although I'm not 100% certain yet, that I have finally conquered this. For so many decades I would just be dumbfounded by what other people do. Then, when I got involved with alcoholics and addicts, I was so hurt by their behavior but kept focusing on the "buts." "But he's so this and he's so that.... but he did this one thing that was kind.... but he said how much he loved me and he even CRIED when he did..." trying to get over the severe pain and heartache their other behaviors caused. Their behavior never added up. They always did something horrible and uncaring to say the least. After all these years though I have mostly stopped being confused by their charades. I can see them clearly for what they are. And I can do it now mostly without judgment. In the beginning I HAD to judge them, to look down my nose at them, in order to FORCE myself to get out of the relationship I had with, and get away from, the alcoholic/addict.

What helped me with this was reading books. One good one was Laura Schlesinger's "How Could You Do That?" I also read a few books on sociopaths and that helped too. Reading the books helped me to see clearly that there are things going on in other people's minds, and things they do as a result, that would NEVER cross my mind, or cross the minds of my friends. They are truly con-artists, whether they are aware of it or not.

My theory behind why we are fooled so many times over is that we are good people who just do not THINK the way some other people think. We try to attribute the kinds of motivations WE have to their behavior. For instance, they may say or do something and we listen or watch and then conclude something like, "Oh, his feelings were hurt by what his daughter said." When in fact, his feelings were NOT hurt by it. It's just how WE personally would feel if our own daughter said something like that. I think it is an over-developed sense of empathy. We feel FOR others what they don't feel for themselves. Their motivations are completely different from ours. Not sure any of this makes sense to someone else, just a theory. I have had to stop myself from trying to understand or explain other peoples' behavior by comparing them to me. It takes practice, but it can be done. Realizing stuff like this about yourself is half the battle. Once you realize it, you can't deny it, and then you can take steps to change it.

Ya' gotta' get smart to their games. Because their games are dangerous. None of us can afford to continue to allow these toxic people to manipulate us any longer. It is US or THEM. That's my opinion.

I'm glad you can see the truth now. You are on a roll. Keep on keepin' on.
p.s. Don't let the anger fester, it'll hurt your immune system and make you more susceptible to sickness. Use the anger to do something that requires energy, something healthy, like go for a walk, clean the house, run down the street, etc.

HidLid

The great thing about crappy people is you can decide to stop talking and caring about them, I suggest you exercise this option.

HealingWillCome

Exactly, L2L. Quivering chin and lip, fighting back tears...those are the things I saw with him. It makes easy to believe that the feelings are real. But looking back, it reminds me of when a child gets caught doing something and they say they're sorry. I've asked my daughters before, "Are you sorry for what you did...or sorry that you got caught?"


I agree completely.



I'm feeling much better than I was earlier today. Just got home from my 14-yo's first high school cross country meet. It was a BEAUTIFUL day. The meet was in a beautiful park. DD ran an awesome race, and her sisters and I were there to cheer her on. Going to the farmer's market in the morning and a football game tomorrow afternoon.

Things will be okay. I needed to get mad...it's not something I do very often. I read once that underneath all anger is pain...I usually go straight to the pain, so this felt good. Empowering...makes me want to fight for myself rather than fight to hang on to something that was so horrible for me.

Also, L2L, thanks for the book suggestions. Borders is on my shopping list this weekend.


Yes, it's time, HidLid! The last 24 hours have made that much, much easier.

Thanks, you guys.

Learn2Live

HWC, the Schlessinger book is old so probably not in bookstores but I get these old books from Amazon for very cheap. Sometimes even a penny plus $4 shipping.

I think when the moment comes where you are really able to sit back and observe the alcoholic or addict without being drawn into their con-games, and without any judgement or feeling either good or bad, is true detachment. I'm not advocating or condoning staying in contact with an unhealthy person, but honestly, I believe we cannot truly know or experience our growth like that unless we DO have contact with them at least once in a while until we are "done". I think that is part of the reason why we ALL go back time and again and try to relate to them-not because we are desperate. Because we have to learn how far we have come.

Relating with other people can be so difficult. It is truly a wonderful feeling to not get fooled by people anymore. Empowering.

I am glad you are doing better! Keep up the good work.

Learn2Live

Leise said:
I don't know about using just Time as a way to get to where you want to go. Yes, I guess "time heals all wounds," but I personally have found that if I don't address an issue at one point in my life, it is guaranteed to come back to teach me whatever lesson I need to learn, time and time again until I learn it.

Some situations, though, are so dangerous and harmful to us that it is imperative that we get away from them as quickly as possible. When we wait it out to see what the other person is going to do, we are not in control of the only thing we can control-US. IMO, we have to take action toward something for ourselves because if nothing changes, nothing changes.

Recovery work? Absolutely. My personal feeling about Recovery work is that it never stops. I think how much Recovery work you do at any given time is just a question of how acutely painful life is and how deeply my habits and automatic thoughts are ingrained. Making Al-Anon about Learning has helped me because once I learned the tools that are taught there, I always had them with me. Of course, in practice, I was not that great all the time but they work--you stumble and fall, you get back up and try again--and the ONLY way to try again is to engage with other people. Whenever I have engaged with an alcoholic or addicted person, I knew there was some more learning and growing that I needed to do. It's all practice. And here's the weird thing: "They" say that we choose to associate with those who are at the same level of emotional maturity or health that we are. So whatever a person reflects back to me, I try to see what that means about my own growth. Unfortunately, it's so easy to see what people reflect back to us as our own WORTH, which is just wrong. Look for the opportunities for growth and remind yourself every day of your worth. I have found that self-awareness is key but there too is a fine line between self-awareness and self-blame. Self-blame can turn me into a paranoid maniac. So then there is balance to maintain. Good lord, this Recovery stuff just gets bigger and bigger; we are such complex creatures....

IMO, it's when we have so much Anxiety and Fear about what we are practicing that is so debilitating. That part is a whole 'nother matter. For me, conquering the fear and anxiety was part medical (clinical) and part spiritual. Once I had a Higher Power, I could more easily accept that I am not in control and I could hand things over. It's so nice to have someone to hand these things over to.

So, how to detach without Judgment? Perhaps that is simply the place where you need to be in order to get and keep yourself at a safe distance. Only you can know if Judgment is still working for you, or if it is holding you back (only you can know whether or not you still need to use Judgment in certain relationships). But you're right, being judgmental is not something you want to make a habit of. Although there has not been one single thing that I have done to get to this point, (it has been a process of growth I guess) there are one or two things that stick out for me.

First, Judgment was the thing that FINALLY got me away from, and kept me away from, the sick person. Eventually, though, parts of the sick person were later presented to me again in relationships with other people who I chose to involve myself with over time. Like little chunks of manageable sickness to deal with and learn from. But I still would judge (and still do in some relationships that are troublesome). So, I use judgment in certain situations to protect myself. But then, I learned Discernment (still practicing). Discernment is HUGE. I think maybe learning Discernment is what really got me past Judgment.

Second, though, was likely Love. And I know this sounds hokey because I was always repulsed by people who were even slightly "religious." But it was in the act of finally accepting that there is a God that I was able to do this. It was weird. It was as if I had gained this emotional maturity for the first time in my life, to be able to step back and really see the alcoholics and addicts in my life as who and what they were, but still love them. It is a different kind of love than I had ever experienced. My love has always been a desperate kind of love. Now, it is different. The sad part is, accepting God is so easy, but for all my life I had to make it so difficult. I made it about religion and belief and all that. When it is nothing to do with religion. Spirituality is personal so I am not trying to force my beliefs on anyone. Just saying that life became so much easier when I finally just let go and stopped trying to fight God. And the ironic part? It was my love and caring for a severely addicted and alcoholic man that allowed me to finally accept God. But that's a whole 'nother story

I don't know if I answered the question of how I did anything in this post. But I do hope that something here helps someone somewhere. Awareness is truly half the battle though Leise. Once you become aware that you judge people as a protective mechanism, you begin to notice WHEN you judge people. Then, you can inhibit that automatic reaction to judge, and apply some other tool for relating that you have learned. But I still keep Judgment in my pocket reserved for situations and people that I can't handle. I have found that those people are just at an emotional place somewhere different than where I am. I believe that WE are the fortunate ones because we seek out Recovery and we work on ourselves. Whereas those people often never seek out Recovery and they remain "way back there" in places we leave behind.

coffeedrinker

what a kick in the stomach, healing. i get it.

just this evening, i met with my xabf's daughter - the young woman who has two addicted parents, completely messed-up and "withholding love unless you're such & such" kinds of grandparents - and i wanted to be a special older friend in her life years ago.

anyway, she told me something rotten about her dad, and what it did was
1. made me feel rotten
2. make me know that i made the right decision, and that i was so in denial about how bad off he was, and yes, that just because "he does this nice thing" or "but he cried during the movie about cancer and it reminded him of me and us" or any other number of "yeah, but" statements i made over the years.

it's all a learning process. we are naive. we are trusting. we love unconditionally.

but that's also what makes us beautiful people.

HealingWillCome

I understand both of these feelings.


And thank you for this. Those traits we have are gifts...and when we learn to share them with the right (healthy) people, they will be rewarded.

tjp613

I was 40 years old before I figured out that not everyone thinks the way I do, that not everyone shares my value system and that not everyone is basically a good, honest person. WOW. Talk about an awakening!!! Sorry to say that I'm much more cynical than I was back then... people have to prove themselves worthy of my trust now. That seems to be working out much better for me! (Duh!)

fourmaggie

but then I get caught up in looking for the good in people


still, I followed my GUT feeling...works every time!

tjp613

[on my soapbox]

...the thing to remember, really, is that some people do not actually have the emotional CAPACITY to love, be honest, be loyal, etc. Many people (for whatever reason) only learn how to IMITATE those emotions and MANIPULATE the people in their environment to get their needs met. It's so unfortunate that they have to live this way, but it is what it is. If we are to protect ourselves from such 'emotionally disabled' people, the thing to do is this: Pay Attention. Believe them when they SHOW you who they are, not what their words are saying. Do NOT make excuses for them to fit your view of who they are.

Beyond that it is our duty to forgive them, ourselves and then bless them as they move along the difficult path the Universe has chosen for them...as we move along ours.

[off my soapbox now}

dollydo

My mother the alcoholic is a lier, dumb lies, that basically go back to her core, insecurity and jealousy.

My brother and I are totally honest, we just shake our heads when she comes up with one of her dooseys.

My exabf was/is a professional lier, and, 90% of the time he gets caught in his lie. Maybe not immediately, but eventually, the truth always comes out. I told him, if you would use all the brain power you waste on making up lies on having a plan to do the right thing, you just might have a positive outcome.

Nope, won't happen!

HealingWillCome

Tjp, thanks. You flipped on a light switch for me today.

It has taken me years to really understand this:

I first heard it over ten years ago from my former SIL about my XAH. She was a recovering alcoholic and chemical dependency counselor and taught me a lot about the disease.

But, she didn't explain to me what you just did which is that... Imitation with the intent to manipulate just makes sense to me all of a sudden.

The brain works in amazing ways. I think what you're saying is that the intellectual part of the brain takes over when the brain's emotional center can't function. It explains why the active A can function intellectually in a career or job but can't function emotionally in a relationship. Does that make sense?

I keep reminding myself of one thing that has been hammered into my head here at SR, and you said it today, Tjp. ACTIONS and not WORDS are the real indicator of truth.

tjp613

Believe me, HWC, I had to learn all that the hard way.

I was in a relationship with this guy for 3 LONG years and it was ridiculous what I put up with! I made a list one time of all the lies I had caught him in...and at the time there were 52 of them. And these were not little white lies...these were big ones! I remember thinking at the time (it must have been a year into it) that that was a lie for every week we had been together. AND YET I STAYED ANOTHER 2 YEARS. He was a master at telling me what I wanted to hear but very, very rarely followed up on anything. He was a marijuana addict, by the way. He was a chronic cheater. But, man, was he a good lover! And he could pour on the charm like you would not believe. I just couldn't for the life of me put the pieces of that puzzle together until one day somebody said the words, "He just doesn't have the capacity to feel the things you feel, but he's an expert at imitating those emotions." ***Light Bulb Moment*** So then I went on the internet and did all kinds of research on personality disorders because I had to know what the hell was wrong with that guy! He was a classic borderline personality disorder... or maybe even a sociopath!! THEN the pieces all fit together, but I sure had to go thru the wringer first! It was a huge life lesson...I'm just trying to pass along what I learned. I'm glad it was helpful to you. Hopefully you've been spared a few years of misery.

((((Hugs))))

Bucyn

Absolutely true. He was always ascribing thoughts, plans and motives to me that I NEVER would have done, and would NEVER have occurred to me to do.

Like the night he was removed from the house by the police, he was screaming how he had to protect himself by watching TV programs like "Snapped" and "City Confidential" because I was going to kill him and he had to know how I would do it.

What a fcking idiot.

Or his theory that **I** was planting drugs or weapons on his fcked up kid, so he'd get in trouble. Umm...no, that doesn't even make sense, because when a fcked up kid in your household gets into serious legal trouble, guess who else it causes humungous problems for? The parents!! And sure, I'm going to save and scrimp and plan for a year to take the whole family on a cruise, and then sabotage it 5 days before by 'planting' drugs on the kid before he goes to the day camp at school. Yep, nothing I want better than to lose $7,000 and disappoint my kids, and all the other people who were flying into town and had also invested in the cruise.

What a fcking idiot.

I have dozens of these stories about how bizarre his thinking is: but the upshot is, I would NEVER even think of doing 99% of what he thought I was doing, it just wouldn't have occurred to me. But he spent/spends his life assuming I'm this Machiavellian snake slithering around setting him, his son, and his mommy up for endless failures and heartbreaks. And never had a reason as to why, except, "You just hate my mom, my just hate my kid, you just hate me."

Yep, makes perfect sense: I married you because I hated you, your kid and your mom, and thought marriage would give me the best opportunity to dedicate my life to screwing up his and his mommy's and his kid's.

What a fcking idiot.

Jenny1232

HealingWillCome.... I too just found out why my ex's 8 year relationship ended.

His girlfriend walked in to their home and saw him having 'relations' with another woman in their bed...

His version: He took care of her broken back for two years, and when she 'healed' she took off on his money, because she "no longer wanted a boyfriend".

I feel your pain... betrayal.. frustration... he too, swore up and down he had never cheated. ;-/ I am sickened by humanity, but reading the responses to this thread left a glimmer of hope.