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Some Questions and Reservations About AA...

Old 08-31-2010, 05:32 PM
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Question Some Questions and Reservations About AA...

I'm approaching day 3 of sobriety, and have taken a number of steps to help assist me in staying sober. I've read through quite a bit of AA material, and have to say there's a lot of really helpful teachings, but on the other hand...there's some stuff I just can't swallow or agree with no matter how I look at it.

I get the feeling from a number of AA folks over the years that they feel AA is the only TRUE path to sobriety and if not followed to the letter and for the remainder of one's life will result in certain relapse and ultimately death.

That said, have any of you regularly gone to AA mainly for the purpose of sharing and or getting support, but disregarded the stuff that didn't work for you? Can one get a sponsor even if you are not working the 12 steps exactly as prescribed?
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Old 08-31-2010, 05:35 PM
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I did AA for awhile early on. I learned some helpful stuff. I quit going after about 2 years. Been solo ever since. 12 steps ain't the only way. There are lots of ways.
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Old 08-31-2010, 05:45 PM
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Hey, im 29 with 22 months sober......I havent been to AA or partaken in any official recovery program - just SR and lots of books. However if I was in a city that offered lots of different types of face to face meetings - AA, RR, SMART, etc - id go to them all! I think you can learn something positive from every program....

I have what I consider to be a non aa sponsor - my Dad (lol). Hes in recovery too - I think its paramount to have someone in recovery that you look up to and can trust to call on any time. Now I havent actually seen my dad since ive been sober, but our email/phone contact is sufficient.

Keep posting here mate, youll find people doing recovery all sorts of ways....and some that believe their way is the only way. Personally I just read everything I can find concerning addiction and my specific anxiety issues and post/read here, and here I am 22 months later If you like reading, check out the book lovers section - theres LOADS of recommendations for books to read in early sobriety.

Good Luck and Welcome and congratulations on your 3 days - almost halfway to a week
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Old 08-31-2010, 05:51 PM
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I've not gone to AA, so I'll leave those questions
You'll find other methods here on SR if you;re interested in them, Taco.

D
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Old 08-31-2010, 05:59 PM
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I don't think it matters so much what program, or lack of one, you work, as long as you put your whole heart and soul into it. Lots of different ways to stay sober. Do whatever works for you. I see an addiction counselor once a week and come here every day. Coming up on nine months now and not looking back.

Welcome to the SR family!
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Old 08-31-2010, 06:07 PM
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Nobody is forced to work the 12 Steps. For some people, when all else fails, the program, worked properly, keeps them sober.

The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. I suggest that you go, keep an open mind.

I've stayed sober for two years without yet working the steps (though I am starting very soon with my sponsor). I am doing it because I am now seeing that my life is screwed up in a lot of ways, and if I don't do the work, maybe I WILL drink again. The steps are a program for healthy living.

If you aren't working the steps, you don't really NEED a sponsor, and some people won't agree to sponsor someone not working the steps.

You are welcome to go to meetings and listen, and to share about your problems with alcohol. The only thing you need to remember is to be respectful of the program during meetings. A meeting isn't the appropriate place to debate the program or openly disagree with it. You are free to hold any opinions you like at all times, but some people NEED the AA message, so out of respect for them, you need to express your disagreements outside the meeting itself.
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Old 08-31-2010, 06:19 PM
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Greetings Taco!
My first question for you is "Do you live in a fairly large metropolitan area?" If so, then you are fortunate in probably having a relatively large variety of AA groups to choose from. Some are likely to be more "traditional" than others. Some persons, myself included, have had some issues with groups which seemed, to us at least, to rely too exclusively on the Big Book and not on a great deal of other literature available from the AA Central Office. The latter seem to take a broad view that AA is for everyone, including even agnostics (which I am not) or atheists (again, not me). And the program is also for believers in many religions besides Christianity. Furthermore, and this is where AA folks may differ a lot among themselves, the steps are all voluntary, like the program itself is voluntary.
Some folks say that a person will never achieve permanant sobriety without strictly doing all the steps and following a sponsor's requirements to the letter. I've been going to AA for 22 years, sometimes often, sometimes not so often. I'm really not sure whether I've done all the steps. I figure I may have done some steps more than once, others I'm not so sure about. And I've had my best luck with an agnostics group although I'm neither an agnostic nor an atheist.
So I've been sober for 22 years come October. Have I really been on a 22 year old "dry drunk" for all those years for not having taken AA literally enough? All you out there! Be my guest! Say anything that comes to your mind. I really don't care what you call me! I haven't had a drink for 22 years. I have no desire to drink. I don't get up each morning and say, "Please God help me not to drink today!" I can serve drinks to friends without feeling tempted myself. And I'm very very happy. I'm also infinitely grateful to AA for having saved my life, my sanity, and for having rescued me from the slavery of alcohol. I'm 83 years of age, with nearly 22 years of not drinking, 22 years when I've been happier than I've ever been before. I'm always aware that I might relapse but don't bet on it. You'd do much better out in Las Vegas.
For the rest of my thoughts, and some of my experience, you may wish to check out my homesite (click on my name in the left hand margin of this message). The homesite is under a pseudonym. hmcclay.org.
All I can say to this, is "Welcome aboard!" Give AA your best shot, get from it what you can (and that's a lot, believe me!). Don't get too frustrated with a need to do everything that everyone tells you to do (but be careful nonetheless- the body is apt to play tricks with your mind, at least for the first few years. It wants, thinks it needs, that booze back because it's grown so accustomed to it over the years, adapting all of its little opioid receptors to operate in an alcohol environment. Watch your body and as they say in the spy business, watch your back. Be careful, try to choose the AA group, and hopefully the sponsor, that's right for you, and lets hope that things turn out the way for you that they seemed to have turned out for me. Good luck.

W.

Last edited by wpainterw; 08-31-2010 at 06:25 PM. Reason: Typo; delete word
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Old 08-31-2010, 06:28 PM
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I'm not an AA person either, but I think you should do whatever it takes to get and to stay sober.

I wish you well!
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Old 08-31-2010, 06:53 PM
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You will find lots of people who take what they want/need and leave the rest. You may decide to take it all and then give it away to alcoholics who are still suffering... Or you may go for the fellowship only... There is no law or rule that you must do it one particular way.

For some, though, relief and true freedom come only from the program... The 12 steps... And if you join us in the program and the fellowship, you will be able to, and want to, help others who are still suffering.

Your call... You can come and go when and as you please.
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Old 08-31-2010, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by TacoDude View Post
I'm approaching day 3 of sobriety, and have taken a number of steps to help assist me in staying sober. I've read through quite a bit of AA material, and have to say there's a lot of really helpful teachings, but on the other hand...there's some stuff I just can't swallow or agree with no matter how I look at it.

I get the feeling from a number of AA folks over the years that they feel AA is the only TRUE path to sobriety and if not followed to the letter and for the remainder of one's life will result in certain relapse and ultimately death.

That said, have any of you regularly gone to AA mainly for the purpose of sharing and or getting support, but disregarded the stuff that didn't work for you? Can one get a sponsor even if you are not working the 12 steps exactly as prescribed?
Welcome To SR TacoDude.. The Only True Path To Sobriety is To Stop Drinking.. i Have Had Good Results With A.A. and Have Not Followed Anything To The Letter (i Don't Think) an Honest Desire To Quit Drinking is all You Need To Give it a Try..
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Old 08-31-2010, 07:03 PM
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Hi! Not much to add other than check out the secular section of the forum...we frequently debate various theories and ideas about recovery there.
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Old 08-31-2010, 07:23 PM
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Thanks everyone for your helpful responses. The thing I've been thinking about in the last few weeks before I quit was WHY I drank. Feeding the addiction aside, I think that one has to be pretty disconnected on some level to abuse one's body to the extent that we do; I know I can quit drinking, but can I stay sober? I don't think so, not unless I identify and then work on the underlying cause. Fortunately, I've figured out what that is for me, now the challenge is to work on that, and I see that as my biggest challenge...
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Old 08-31-2010, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by TacoDude View Post
Thanks everyone for your helpful responses. The thing I've been thinking about in the last few weeks before I quit was WHY I drank. Feeding the addiction aside, I think that one has to be pretty disconnected on some level to abuse one's body to the extent that we do; I know I can quit drinking, but can I stay sober? I don't think so, not unless I identify and then work on the underlying cause. Fortunately, I've figured out what that is for me, now the challenge is to work on that, and I see that as my biggest challenge...
i Agree 100% Taco.. That's What A.A. Can Help You With..
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Old 08-31-2010, 08:08 PM
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Taco:
If you've figured out the cause, then you are indeed a fortunate fellow. I can only speak for myself. Part of the cause was likely genetic (we've got quite a history in our families, both sides) part was cultural (the "cocktail" hour, which became very popular in the 1920's (I was born in 1927) created the notion that "adults" drink "cocktails" before dinner- that was what "adults" were supposed to do. Part was college (college was where you were supposed to "sew your wild oats". Part was damn foolishness on my part, getting to like the "buzz" from booze and feeling less shy, yes less shy with women (would you believe!); booze, I thought, helped me "fit in" with my peers; part was from the stress of the workplace after college, part was from the stress of becoming a parent, dealing with adolescent kids, and growing stronger throughout all those forty years, increasing denial, codependence, the whole can or worms.
So what's the "cause"? In AA they talk about "character defects", which you "remove" by resort to a "higher power". Well after I got sober I realized that some of my "personality characterstics" (like obsessive perfectionism, compulsive behavior, dependency on other persons, depression, negative outlook on life) were still there. I had to work on those and cope with them. AA helped me with that. Helped me a lot. Would I have remained sober if I had not worked on those things? Who knows. My chances of doing that might have been less. AA has then helped me a lot, even though I might not be an example of a "straight arrow" guy who always did it by the Big Book. You might say I muddled through. Maybe someone upstairs was helping me do that.

W.
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Old 09-01-2010, 02:01 AM
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I will try anything to get sober, screw if I don't believe it right now. What I believe ain't exactly working great.
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Old 09-01-2010, 02:41 AM
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Hey dude.

If you're sober and happy about it then that is what counts, in my book. Take what you want, leave the rest behind. As long as your sober and you're happy about that then that's the thing that counts. Also I looked at many of the so called "recovered" alcoholics and listen to them preach at everybody and I think ""man, I really don't want to be like you!"

The vast majority of people that go into AA are never seen again. Certainly that's been my experince of AA over the past 16 months. Also it's the same clique of people in the meetings within a 30 mile radius of my town and surrounding cities and towns. That is somewhat depressing.

I think the problem that AA has is that the vast majority of people who go in are just bombarded with rhetoric and scared away thinking that it's just full of nutters preaching about GOD and substituting booze for the supernatural. Of course that's not the case (in many cases) but I came close to being scared off and demoralised and back into drinking more than once. I made sure I didn't, I had to stop going to AA to stay sober. AA did really help keep me sober too though, particularly in early sobriety.

I use AA meetings when I need them, I use AA daily in my life. It's a shame that people are made to feel uncomfortable in meetings when they have a positive message of recovery and could instill hope to other's still struggling, but because they don't work a militant 12 step program then others feel that they have power over them. I find that aspect of it a shame. I usually go to AA for a few weeks and really get on with everybody and then get asked to main share. It's a shame when politics have to get involved with AA. The politics of AA. They always say the only requirement for mebership is a desire to stop drinking, that needs to be remembered I think at times. It all voluntary anyway.

Also wpainterw it's so refreshing to hear somebody like yourself. You speak a great message man. You would inspire many, certainly inspire me.

Peace Out.
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Old 09-01-2010, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by TacoDude View Post
That said, have any of you regularly gone to AA mainly for the purpose of sharing and or getting support, but disregarded the stuff that didn't work for you?
Here's just a couple of observations from my time in AA. You've already heard from a number of sober people on this thread, that they don't use any part of AA, or maybe only the parts they like. Obviously, for the right person, long term sobriety without AA is possible. Maybe even for any person, provided they are doing something else. Who knows.

But, and there is always a but, I know many hundreds of people who have failed to stay sober after coming to AA and taking what they want and leaving the rest. And many hundreds have shown up on this forum and failed to have any long term sobriety.

By contrast, I know nobody that has failed to stay sober after having a spiritual awakening as the result of the 12 Steps. That's the kicker for me. Maybe a given individual can stay sober by just hanging around AA. Examples of this abound, and so do the counter-examples. But sobriety is a near certainty for those that work the program as it's laid out in the BB.

I'll also add, that most everyone who is advising against working the 12 Steps is telling you about an experience they have not had. They are telling you that you don't need an experience that they themselves have never had. That's the basis for their belief that the experience is not needed. It's not needed for them. True enough, and i have no argument with that.

I took a guy through the Steps last year that reminds me a lot of what I'm reading in this thread. Eric had been sober 10-12 years or something, and had never worked the Steps. He was pretty hostile to the rigid, book thumper crowd. As evidenced by his continued sobriety, he didn't need that experience of the 12 Steps, and didn't like being told that he might be missing something.

And he was right. But for whatever reason, he started hanging out with a bunch of guys that had all worked the Steps and stayed in the action of the AA program of recovery, and he started feeling like he was missing something. He wasn't as happy joyous and free as he thought when he saw how that crowd lived. In classic AA style, he wanted some of that.

So, we went through the Steps, and Eric had a profound experience and is a changed man. Not that he was a bad man before. But changed now. He is a great example of selflessness and usefulness to others.

His comment to me frequently is, "I didn't know it could be like this." See, he had judged that he didn't need that experience without ever having that experience. Now that he's had the experience, he sees what he was missing and can not live without it.

So ask around. See if anyone who has actually had a spiritual awakening as the result of the Steps feels that it's optional or not all that spectacular. I think you will find that for those that have actually had the experience, it is the most important thing in their lives. The very driving force of their lives, in fact, giving it purpose and direction.

Or perhaps better yet, just have the experience and then you'll know for yourself.
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Old 09-01-2010, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by TacoDude View Post
I identify and then work on the underlying cause. Fortunately, I've figured out what that is for me...
Congrats on Day 3

Taco Dude, I think the quote above is a huge step in recovery... knowing why you drink. I am not saying it will be easy for you to fix the trigger for drinking, but it is a start. As for which program, I think it is a personal choice, you need to do what is comfortable for you and at the same time what will help you manage through the cravings or the desire to drink. I hope you find the answer to both, solving the triggers and the program to help with process.

Stick around here, you will get tons of support and inspiration Taco Dude.


(I love tacos too, it is one of my favorite foods)
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Old 09-01-2010, 06:20 AM
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I have a friend that recently took an interest in the popular P90X workout program. He saw it working for people he knew and decided that it was something he wanted to do. So he bought the stuff and watched the videos first, without doing the workouts. He felt that some of the exercises were too difficult, some were pointless, and some were ideal for somebody like him. So he went about doing P90X his way, and after about 3 weeks declared that this P90X is a load of crap! He's not getting the results that others are. Well...

This is an extreme and perhaps oversimplified anecdote but i do feel it's applicable. I know people and meet people with regularity who declare that AA/NA can't work for them, and those that also say it didn't work for them. To a person, these individuals either did not follow the simple suggestions contained in the recovery program or they picked and chose only certain aspects.

Now that is certainly everyones right to do. My position is simply that when i arrived in places like this forum, treatment centers, and 12 step meetings my way of doing things was clearly a failure. i was willing to try anything to find a new way of life. Now conceding that my way had brought me to this place of desperation it seemed sensible to remove me from the equation and simply do what these other people did, to the best of my ability, in order to achieve what it was in them that i wanted.

I'm not advocating being a mindless drone. I'm far from that. One of the beautiful things about the steps is the open-endedness of the language, the critical part being your freedom to choose your own concept of a higher power.

I was turned off my many things about the program initially but decided that since my way was failure upon failure i would try their way and see what happened. It couldn't make my life any worse than i had done myself, right? I felt that doing only certain things wouldn't give me an accurate sample of the power of this program. I know this from prior personal experience where i'd go to meetings, no sponsor, no step work and numerous variations of that. I was one of the people who felt that this NA stuff doens't work for me!

Then i realized that i'm not really so unique, and if i'm at a place in my life that i'm requiring outside help and guidance for a personal issue that i desire to change, then it would behoove me to actually do what this outside help suggests, just like my friend with P90X.

I'm in no way suggesting that a 12 step program is the only way to recover. I know for a fact that it is not. I find it unfortunate that some people in the rooms would proclaim that AA/NA is the only way to recover. I tend to believe people, however, when they proclaim that AA is the only way for them to recover. There's a big difference between those statements, and most of us have tried a myriad of ways by the time we land in the rooms.

Ultimately it's up to the individual and anyone with the desire is welcome to join. And you can get out of it what you choose, and leave the rest if you like. There are plenty of things said by people that i leave. It's the basics that i followed to a t. Meetings, home group, service, 90 in 90, and most importantly step work with my sponsor.

Anyway, i've rambled enough. Good luck with whatever path you choose. It is my wish that you find the freedom you seek, by any means.
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Old 09-01-2010, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by NEOMARXIST View Post
If you're sober and happy about it then that is what counts, in my book. Take what you want, leave the rest behind. As long as your sober and you're happy about that then that's the thing that counts.
Reading these first 2 sentences reminded me of a song little kids sing and now I can't get it out of my head. Of course I'm paraphasing the original...
"If you're sober and you're happy-- clap your hands, If you're sober and you're happy then you're face will surely show it if you're sober and you're happy clap your hands"
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