Untangling the Manipulation that keeps me stuck
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Untangling the Manipulation that keeps me stuck
I've taken a hiatus from posting for a while, because I've been ashamed of my behavior. I believe my last thread was posted after I had decided to cut off all contact and financial support from my XAH because, after he lost his job through no fault of his own (and I was in contact enough with him during that time to know that that was the case, not because of drunkenness or missed work or anything), I had told him I would financially help him until he landed another job, and at one drunken point, he told me he would rather have the money to drink with than me paying his rent.
That lasted a day, when his sister called me in a tizzy about helping him cash a check she had given him for the rent (the last money he had out of our divorce settlement). I gave in, I saw him, it was ugly, and ultimately I gave his sister a check for enough money for XAH to stave off homelessness until he could get a job, any job.
He did get a job, that's the good news. A halfway decent one too, where they seem to value him as an employee--he's a law school grad working as a cook, and in the job he got let go from, the boss told him that his cooking skills weren't up to par, but in this job, the bosses love him and think that he's doing a great job. He's still living in a motel because he has no driver's license, etc., etc, but the setup he has now is definitely doable. He can walk to work, take the bus home, and he's even taken a second job at the hotel he's staying in working in their kitchen.
Let me pause here to mention that I know I sound more like his mother than his ex-wife. I sometimes peruse the threads posted by mothers of drug addicts or alcoholics, and feel I greatly identify with their struggle. Both of my XAH's parents are dead, and his one remaining sibling that I and he are in contact with will offer lots of support emotionally, but none financially. So I struggle with feeling like he IS my problem, in the same sense that mothers do, whereas I really do feel like if he's ever going to right his ship he needs somebody in his corner at least a little bit financially.
So, that's what I do. what I have done. I've helped out financially. I've unnecessarily complicated things emotionally. I feel like for a while there I was pretty consistent in my "it's over no matter what you do from here on out" message, but a large reason I was able to be that strong previously was that I was feeling pretty secure emotionally myself in my new relationship--since he (my XAH) fell apart and then picked up the pieces again, I've been more inconsistent myself. For a while, I fell back into "if you can't beat him, join him" mode, and thought that my inability to let go meant that we were maybe meant to be together and that I would at least offer him that "carrot" by being single myself. I got as far as breaking up with my BF, but I wasn't able to even go the next step of telling my XAH I had done that, to offer him the "ray of hope" he has always claimed he needed to inspire him to seek recovery. As soon as I thought about doing it, I knew in my gut it was wrong, so I stopped myself. To clarify, I broke up with BF mainly because I wanted to know in my heart I had given XAH the best motivator for seeking recovery (as he tells it), but when push came to shove, I wouldn't even allow myself to tell him because I saw how easily he could and probably would manipulate the situation.
I have been going to therapy through all of this, and I recently began attending Al-Anon again. I also read a book that I actually found more helpful than "Codependent No More" and that was "Women Who Love Too Much". I saw a LOT of myself in that book, and that inspired me to keep trudging forward with ramped up therapy sessions and regular Al-Anon meetings.
So, finally, we get to my question. Now he's "doing OK", in the sense that he's supporting himself and doesn't hate his job and won't get fired if he keeps on keeping on, but he calls me all the time saying things like, "You know I'm the love of your life, and I know you love me too no matter what you say, your actions show you still care about me, and I know you've helped me out financially, and I'm grateful for that, but I need something emotionally too. I need to know there's a rainbow waiting for me at the end of this. You need to dump your BF (again, he doesn't know I already have) and we need to work on getting the family back together again."
Sometimes, the messages sound like this, "I'm doing this for you and for DD. I had to work 16 hours today, on my feet, and it's killing my body. But I'll do it if I know it means we'll get back together. I know that you love me, I know you said some mean things on Thursday, but that's not the true you."
(Because I frequently do tell him that I don't want to be with him, that even if I was single I wouldn't want him back, etcetera".
Then, there's this old chestnut, "I can't be with any woman but you. I don't think I'm physically capable of it. If I can't have you, I have no motivation to even try to get better". This one is usually followed by a request for sex. (which I did give into once, after I'd broken up with BF, because he told me I owed him because I told him sarcastically that he's never been able to keep a job since I've known him and that if he could last at this job 90 days I'd get back with him). He told me that was me giving him false hope and that I owed him sex to assuage his hurt. I'm not going to blame that all on him though, obviously my dumb ass let myself be manipulated, but in my mind it definitely felt like giving in to assuage my guilt about making a comment like that that could very clearly be interpreted by him as a promise that we'd be together again.
I know I've mentioned this on these forums before, but I feel so jealous of the XAH's who just left, and moved on. I was so hoping that at this point there'd be more of that. I feel so freaking trapped, like he's always going to make me the reason he does anything that he SHOULD be doing, like keeping a job. The reason I've felt compelled to help him before is I've felt like, everyone deserves someone that will help them make it even be possible to get a job, to build themself up. He is the father of my child, he has noone else, I have the money, why can't I help him out if it's a matter of--he'll be in the homeless shelter if I don't, or he will be in the situation he's in now (roof over his head, money coming in) if I do--I prefer option 2 so I'll help. But then it never. Lets. Up. Calls me all the time, gets pissed if I don't answer, begs me for sex, tells me he can't do this without the help I provide and he's grateful for the financial help but now he needs the emotional help too.
Just typing this out I see how ridiculous this all sounds. I will say that I feel my progress in dealing with this has been glacially slow, but not non-existent, and that I do feel stronger in my dealing with this. Believe me, I already know I've made grievous mistakes in my dealings with him since our divorce. I can only say that they were always born out of two motives--trying to relieve my own guilt and anxiety, and trying to avoid the pain of seeing the man I used to love out on the streets. I've tried to be as honest as I can here, and what I really want to hear is what should be my next step from where I am now--and here's where I am now. I'm sick of it; I'm sick of him; being truly alone for even these past 2 weeks has gotten me somewhat past the guilt I feel about starting a new relationship so soon after I left XAH in Jan 2009; I feel like I set him up as good as anybody could expect from a mother or a father or a friend, and if he f's it up, I don't have to be tormented by the thought of--what if I'd just given him the rent money for two more weeks, could he have gotten to be self-sufficient? I'm truly tired of hearing about how much I'm the key to this man's well-being, he tells me this all the time. Although I do remain sympathetic to that point of view, because I remember feeling that way myself about both him and another previous relationship, and I know how much it hurts. I guess I should mention that he is still drinking. To complete the picture, I was in AA for a while myself, but ultimately decided that that wasn't really my problem, that co-dependency was, and that I could drink on occasion and be OK. So far, so good as far as that goes, in the sense that I haven't abused alcohol since I've quit AA. I think comparing my actions to my self-destructive ex's actions made me think, I'm not like him at all- am I truly an alcoholic? Jury's still out for me, but I do know that I don't have this bent that he does to continually make the wrong choices in every aspect of my life. Unfortunately, my ex does know this, and I think it makes him think that I'm now A-OK with his drinking as long as he maintains a job. Because I have always been clear that I wouldn't want to be with him unless he could keep a job and seek recovery. I guess since he now knows I'm drinking on occasion he thinks I would be cool with just the first part of that sentence.
What is the best course of action for me to take with him, moving forward? Do I send him yet another "Come to Jesus" email where I tell him my feelings about all this? Do I refuse all of his calls (this one causes me anxiety, because it makes me feel like I'm 'setting him up for failure' in his current situation--like his mental health for even showing up for his main job, let alone the 2nd one, rests on me providing him "hope for the future")--and I guess I feel that way because that's exactly what he tells me.
Do I move out of state (believe me, this one gets more and more appealing every day?). He doesn't make any effort to see DD unless I arrange it.
Bottom line is I'm terrified he'll "fall into the abyss with no way out" if I cut all contact with him forever. It's like, you need a co-signer for an apt. if you have horrible credit. You need access to a shower to go on a job interview. You need access to a computer to find out about jobs. How do I handle it if he really does choose homelessness? And how do I live with the guilt of knowing that this is in some way my fault because I set up this situation because I so wanted him to at least be "OK"?
That lasted a day, when his sister called me in a tizzy about helping him cash a check she had given him for the rent (the last money he had out of our divorce settlement). I gave in, I saw him, it was ugly, and ultimately I gave his sister a check for enough money for XAH to stave off homelessness until he could get a job, any job.
He did get a job, that's the good news. A halfway decent one too, where they seem to value him as an employee--he's a law school grad working as a cook, and in the job he got let go from, the boss told him that his cooking skills weren't up to par, but in this job, the bosses love him and think that he's doing a great job. He's still living in a motel because he has no driver's license, etc., etc, but the setup he has now is definitely doable. He can walk to work, take the bus home, and he's even taken a second job at the hotel he's staying in working in their kitchen.
Let me pause here to mention that I know I sound more like his mother than his ex-wife. I sometimes peruse the threads posted by mothers of drug addicts or alcoholics, and feel I greatly identify with their struggle. Both of my XAH's parents are dead, and his one remaining sibling that I and he are in contact with will offer lots of support emotionally, but none financially. So I struggle with feeling like he IS my problem, in the same sense that mothers do, whereas I really do feel like if he's ever going to right his ship he needs somebody in his corner at least a little bit financially.
So, that's what I do. what I have done. I've helped out financially. I've unnecessarily complicated things emotionally. I feel like for a while there I was pretty consistent in my "it's over no matter what you do from here on out" message, but a large reason I was able to be that strong previously was that I was feeling pretty secure emotionally myself in my new relationship--since he (my XAH) fell apart and then picked up the pieces again, I've been more inconsistent myself. For a while, I fell back into "if you can't beat him, join him" mode, and thought that my inability to let go meant that we were maybe meant to be together and that I would at least offer him that "carrot" by being single myself. I got as far as breaking up with my BF, but I wasn't able to even go the next step of telling my XAH I had done that, to offer him the "ray of hope" he has always claimed he needed to inspire him to seek recovery. As soon as I thought about doing it, I knew in my gut it was wrong, so I stopped myself. To clarify, I broke up with BF mainly because I wanted to know in my heart I had given XAH the best motivator for seeking recovery (as he tells it), but when push came to shove, I wouldn't even allow myself to tell him because I saw how easily he could and probably would manipulate the situation.
I have been going to therapy through all of this, and I recently began attending Al-Anon again. I also read a book that I actually found more helpful than "Codependent No More" and that was "Women Who Love Too Much". I saw a LOT of myself in that book, and that inspired me to keep trudging forward with ramped up therapy sessions and regular Al-Anon meetings.
So, finally, we get to my question. Now he's "doing OK", in the sense that he's supporting himself and doesn't hate his job and won't get fired if he keeps on keeping on, but he calls me all the time saying things like, "You know I'm the love of your life, and I know you love me too no matter what you say, your actions show you still care about me, and I know you've helped me out financially, and I'm grateful for that, but I need something emotionally too. I need to know there's a rainbow waiting for me at the end of this. You need to dump your BF (again, he doesn't know I already have) and we need to work on getting the family back together again."
Sometimes, the messages sound like this, "I'm doing this for you and for DD. I had to work 16 hours today, on my feet, and it's killing my body. But I'll do it if I know it means we'll get back together. I know that you love me, I know you said some mean things on Thursday, but that's not the true you."
(Because I frequently do tell him that I don't want to be with him, that even if I was single I wouldn't want him back, etcetera".
Then, there's this old chestnut, "I can't be with any woman but you. I don't think I'm physically capable of it. If I can't have you, I have no motivation to even try to get better". This one is usually followed by a request for sex. (which I did give into once, after I'd broken up with BF, because he told me I owed him because I told him sarcastically that he's never been able to keep a job since I've known him and that if he could last at this job 90 days I'd get back with him). He told me that was me giving him false hope and that I owed him sex to assuage his hurt. I'm not going to blame that all on him though, obviously my dumb ass let myself be manipulated, but in my mind it definitely felt like giving in to assuage my guilt about making a comment like that that could very clearly be interpreted by him as a promise that we'd be together again.
I know I've mentioned this on these forums before, but I feel so jealous of the XAH's who just left, and moved on. I was so hoping that at this point there'd be more of that. I feel so freaking trapped, like he's always going to make me the reason he does anything that he SHOULD be doing, like keeping a job. The reason I've felt compelled to help him before is I've felt like, everyone deserves someone that will help them make it even be possible to get a job, to build themself up. He is the father of my child, he has noone else, I have the money, why can't I help him out if it's a matter of--he'll be in the homeless shelter if I don't, or he will be in the situation he's in now (roof over his head, money coming in) if I do--I prefer option 2 so I'll help. But then it never. Lets. Up. Calls me all the time, gets pissed if I don't answer, begs me for sex, tells me he can't do this without the help I provide and he's grateful for the financial help but now he needs the emotional help too.
Just typing this out I see how ridiculous this all sounds. I will say that I feel my progress in dealing with this has been glacially slow, but not non-existent, and that I do feel stronger in my dealing with this. Believe me, I already know I've made grievous mistakes in my dealings with him since our divorce. I can only say that they were always born out of two motives--trying to relieve my own guilt and anxiety, and trying to avoid the pain of seeing the man I used to love out on the streets. I've tried to be as honest as I can here, and what I really want to hear is what should be my next step from where I am now--and here's where I am now. I'm sick of it; I'm sick of him; being truly alone for even these past 2 weeks has gotten me somewhat past the guilt I feel about starting a new relationship so soon after I left XAH in Jan 2009; I feel like I set him up as good as anybody could expect from a mother or a father or a friend, and if he f's it up, I don't have to be tormented by the thought of--what if I'd just given him the rent money for two more weeks, could he have gotten to be self-sufficient? I'm truly tired of hearing about how much I'm the key to this man's well-being, he tells me this all the time. Although I do remain sympathetic to that point of view, because I remember feeling that way myself about both him and another previous relationship, and I know how much it hurts. I guess I should mention that he is still drinking. To complete the picture, I was in AA for a while myself, but ultimately decided that that wasn't really my problem, that co-dependency was, and that I could drink on occasion and be OK. So far, so good as far as that goes, in the sense that I haven't abused alcohol since I've quit AA. I think comparing my actions to my self-destructive ex's actions made me think, I'm not like him at all- am I truly an alcoholic? Jury's still out for me, but I do know that I don't have this bent that he does to continually make the wrong choices in every aspect of my life. Unfortunately, my ex does know this, and I think it makes him think that I'm now A-OK with his drinking as long as he maintains a job. Because I have always been clear that I wouldn't want to be with him unless he could keep a job and seek recovery. I guess since he now knows I'm drinking on occasion he thinks I would be cool with just the first part of that sentence.
What is the best course of action for me to take with him, moving forward? Do I send him yet another "Come to Jesus" email where I tell him my feelings about all this? Do I refuse all of his calls (this one causes me anxiety, because it makes me feel like I'm 'setting him up for failure' in his current situation--like his mental health for even showing up for his main job, let alone the 2nd one, rests on me providing him "hope for the future")--and I guess I feel that way because that's exactly what he tells me.
Do I move out of state (believe me, this one gets more and more appealing every day?). He doesn't make any effort to see DD unless I arrange it.
Bottom line is I'm terrified he'll "fall into the abyss with no way out" if I cut all contact with him forever. It's like, you need a co-signer for an apt. if you have horrible credit. You need access to a shower to go on a job interview. You need access to a computer to find out about jobs. How do I handle it if he really does choose homelessness? And how do I live with the guilt of knowing that this is in some way my fault because I set up this situation because I so wanted him to at least be "OK"?
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: seeking sanity
Posts: 645
Just a couple of comments, Mambo. You don't OWE him sex. Period. It made me angry just to read that. In fact, you don't owe him anything. It's great that you've helped him. Now he is in a position to help himself. Let him do that instead of using and depending on you. He's a big boy. Spend your time and energy on yourself and your DD.
AlAnon helps me to sort throuh some of these questions.
AlAnon helps me to sort throuh some of these questions.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,294
Maybe a change of vocabulary is in order.
When you HELP him, you STUNT him.
If you switch the one word for the other in your narrative, you may see the picture differently. Desperation is the best teacher, and motivator, in recovery.
CLMI
When you HELP him, you STUNT him.
If you switch the one word for the other in your narrative, you may see the picture differently. Desperation is the best teacher, and motivator, in recovery.
CLMI
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 438
I don't have much to contribute to this thread...but I do want to say how much I appreciate reading about your situation, because I'm in a similar one. I'm an alcoholic living with an alcoholic bf, trying to deal with many of the same issues as you. I broke up w/my bf in March, didn't communicate w/him for two months, then in late May he ended up going to the hospital for a week - psych dept - and I let him stay with me after he got out for what was supposed to be "a few days" before he went into a long-term treatment program for his alcoholism and marijuana use. Well, the "a few days" turned into two months, we kind of got back together romantically, and just a few days ago I found out he'd been smoking pot again. I want him out of my apartment, but he has no job, no money, and nowhere else to go...so in order to save my own sanity I'm going to have to just totally let go of any guilt or responsibility I have in terms of "taking care" of him.
Sorry to hijack your thread...I usually post in the Newcomers section and wanted to read some of the threads in here before posting my own.
Best of luck to you...and I'd love to know how things go for you from here.
Stephanie
Sorry to hijack your thread...I usually post in the Newcomers section and wanted to read some of the threads in here before posting my own.
Best of luck to you...and I'd love to know how things go for you from here.
Stephanie
RIP Sweet Suki
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: In my sanctuary, my home
Posts: 39,902
Wow. You have such a good heart, and yes, you have made some mistakes, but all in all, you did what you felt you had to do to prove to yourself that you had done all you could. It doesn't matter whether others think this was the right thing. You needed to do it, so you did it. It's done. He is on the path he needs to be on.
My feelings are that it is now time for you to let go of that situation and do what you feel is truly best for yourself and your daughter. You know in your heart that your future is not with this man. You and your daughter are so much better off without him weighing you down, and that is what he is doing. He is using guilt and manipulation to wear you down. You have done all you can for him; more than most people would be willing to do, but now it's time for you to live your life for YOU and your daughter. If that means moving out of state, then so be it. He will either stand or fall, but whatever he does is not your concern any longer. You should be able to walk away from him completely now with a clear conscience.
My feelings are that it is now time for you to let go of that situation and do what you feel is truly best for yourself and your daughter. You know in your heart that your future is not with this man. You and your daughter are so much better off without him weighing you down, and that is what he is doing. He is using guilt and manipulation to wear you down. You have done all you can for him; more than most people would be willing to do, but now it's time for you to live your life for YOU and your daughter. If that means moving out of state, then so be it. He will either stand or fall, but whatever he does is not your concern any longer. You should be able to walk away from him completely now with a clear conscience.
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 390
My household has been a bit upheaved with a recent relapse with AH. I have distanced myself emotionally and physically as I deal with my own feelings and emotions. And in speaking with my sister, she asked me if that is good. He needs someone now and me, being his wife, shouldn't I be there for him? Am I just turning my back when what he needs is a helping hand to get through this, if he has a disease? Would I distance myself this way if he had cancer? Although people with cancer or other diseases could alienate those around them, I'm not sure it happens exactly as it does with alcoholism.
This is what I told her. Even though I have left him to his own devices and detached, I can still be supportive. I'm not mean to him, I do have compassion and it reflects in my interaction with him. But I CANNOT HELP HIM. My kind of help did additional damage to this whole thing. He needs help from those uniquely able to help him, and that is, people who have walked in his shoes. His meetings. His sponsor. They truly help him to help himself with guidance only those who understand can give. Kind of like other al-anoners helping me.
When you help him, you stunt him - that is huge. You think you're helping because it FEELS like helping to you. You feel that him getting money from you is a good thing. But what if you are wrong? Al Anon has helped me see that sometimes what I think is best for someone else, isn't. I am not the be all and end all. I am wrong a lot and perhaps I was wrong in what I thought I or he should do. And the way that you are feeling right now is a HUGE hint that it ain't working for either of you. So when you know this, is when you can change. It's never too late. Whatever has happened has happened, but you can move forward differently if you want to. When you do something and it may hurt but does feel better in the end, that's when I think we know we are doing the right thing.
Forgive yourself. Although a horrible thought that the father of your child could be homeless, this is catastrophizing about something that may or may not happen, and something you couldn't control anyways if it did. Even if you threw all the money in the world at him, he could spend it all on booze and still end up on the streets.
Your best option to help this situation is to continue to HELP YOURSELF become healthy, and to stop feeling that you must be responsible for this other human being, who is leeching all your recovery efforts because you allow him to. I know that if someone continued to engage with me in that way, give me money, and I could manipulate them into feeling guilty and sleep with me etc, I'd be inclined to continue doing it too! He's too selfish right now to do anything else, like 'snap' out of it and realize he's taking advantage of a loved one.
A book that really helped me put things into perspective, manipulation etc, is called Addict in the Family.
This is what I told her. Even though I have left him to his own devices and detached, I can still be supportive. I'm not mean to him, I do have compassion and it reflects in my interaction with him. But I CANNOT HELP HIM. My kind of help did additional damage to this whole thing. He needs help from those uniquely able to help him, and that is, people who have walked in his shoes. His meetings. His sponsor. They truly help him to help himself with guidance only those who understand can give. Kind of like other al-anoners helping me.
When you help him, you stunt him - that is huge. You think you're helping because it FEELS like helping to you. You feel that him getting money from you is a good thing. But what if you are wrong? Al Anon has helped me see that sometimes what I think is best for someone else, isn't. I am not the be all and end all. I am wrong a lot and perhaps I was wrong in what I thought I or he should do. And the way that you are feeling right now is a HUGE hint that it ain't working for either of you. So when you know this, is when you can change. It's never too late. Whatever has happened has happened, but you can move forward differently if you want to. When you do something and it may hurt but does feel better in the end, that's when I think we know we are doing the right thing.
Forgive yourself. Although a horrible thought that the father of your child could be homeless, this is catastrophizing about something that may or may not happen, and something you couldn't control anyways if it did. Even if you threw all the money in the world at him, he could spend it all on booze and still end up on the streets.
Your best option to help this situation is to continue to HELP YOURSELF become healthy, and to stop feeling that you must be responsible for this other human being, who is leeching all your recovery efforts because you allow him to. I know that if someone continued to engage with me in that way, give me money, and I could manipulate them into feeling guilty and sleep with me etc, I'd be inclined to continue doing it too! He's too selfish right now to do anything else, like 'snap' out of it and realize he's taking advantage of a loved one.
A book that really helped me put things into perspective, manipulation etc, is called Addict in the Family.
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
I can't really articulate any advice, just a share. I had a physical reaction as I read your thread. My stomach was actually rolling around and I felt sick. My husband (now ex) was so similar in how he tried to manipulate me. I have no respect at all left for him.
I just wanted to share that I did make a break and a) I have zero regrets and b) despite his relentlessness (of words, actions, manipulations like you describe) he has a job and decent place to live right now as we speak and he had neither when I backed out. He figured it out even though it took him awhile. FWIW, I don't think it was the 'figuring it out' that took the time. It was the 'I guess I really can't talk her into taking care of me anymore' that took the time.
Also - my original post was dripping with lots more negativity and harsh words. I re-wrote it to be less crazy
That is how strong my reaction still is to the entire situation.
I just wanted to share that I did make a break and a) I have zero regrets and b) despite his relentlessness (of words, actions, manipulations like you describe) he has a job and decent place to live right now as we speak and he had neither when I backed out. He figured it out even though it took him awhile. FWIW, I don't think it was the 'figuring it out' that took the time. It was the 'I guess I really can't talk her into taking care of me anymore' that took the time.
Also - my original post was dripping with lots more negativity and harsh words. I re-wrote it to be less crazy
That is how strong my reaction still is to the entire situation.
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