Supportive or Manipulative? Need Advice

Old 08-16-2010, 11:37 AM
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Supportive or Manipulative? Need Advice

So I've been on here a lot today, dolin' out the advice and love if I can without trying to seem like I know it all, cause I sure don't.

As some of you may recall, I'm trying to figure out the relationship I'm going to have with my RABF, only 1 month out of rehab for pain pills. We are long distance.

My therapist and I agree I need time apart from him. We set the goal at 5 months. But it seems unrealistic at the moment. I couldn't just say that to him today and mean it.

We have definitely had less contact in the past week.

I spoke with him yesterday. He is very depressed and having a hard time in his AA meetings. He feels abandoned by his friends at home. He's ashamed of what his life has become. He says that his frustration in AA is that he feels surrounded by people who talk a lot about their old drinking and drugging days, but nothing about the things that underlie the drinking and drugging. I guess he is not hearing a lot of ESH.

He says that he wants to understand WHY he drinks and uses drugs. He admits he needs total sobriety, so he is understandably frustrated that he is only hearing "Stay Sober" and nothing like what I seem to be getting out of Al-Anon.

He grew up with adult children of alcoholic as his parents, so he is definitely a good Al-Anon candidate, and I know that many AA people also go to Al-Anon. My RABF says he wishes he had something like Al-Anon, and I told him he should check it out. I think he is scared of adding another program right now, and feeling overwhelmed, almost worrying he wouldn't belong there. It's really hard to explain Al-Anon to people who aren't in program; at least for me.

So. . . my question is this: in a voicemail yesterday, he said that he would do anything to have a shot at staying in my life. Anything! Kind of dramatic, but that's what he said.

I believe he would get a lot out of Al-Anon, and I would like to encourage him to go. Is it really manipulative of me to ask him to try the suggested 6 meetings as the "anything" he would do?

Or is there a better way to help? I don't want to get caught up in his recovery and I don't want to be acting as his sponsor. He just seems very lost and I know he is trying for sobriety, but his depression is back and he wants to deal with his feelings -- just doesn't know how/feels like no one understands.

Please respond with thoughts that take the nuances of things into consideration. I am working hard and honestly to figure out the boundaries I am going to set with him.
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Old 08-16-2010, 12:02 PM
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He says that he wants to understand WHY he drinks and uses drugs.
He drinks and uses drugs because he is an alcoholic and a drug addict.

Nothing you say or do is going to help him until he accepts that fact and does what it takes to recover. Asking him to attend 6 Al-anon meetings isn't going to fix him either, especially if he's struggling with AA right now... It's really just another 12 step program. The steps are pretty much the same after the first one - and it sounds like that's the one he's stuck on.

Codependency, like addiction, is a cunning and baffling disease. It takes a lot of work to recover and stop trying to save people from themselves. And it isn't easy to change. It's uncomfortable at times.

But if nothing changes, nothing changes...

I think you are on the right track, when you focus on helping yourself. Your therapist has suggested you take a break from helping him. And you agreed 5 months would be an appropriate amount of time. I realize that it sounds nearly impossible right now, but maybe you can do it if you focus on it - one day at a time - like an addict has to focus on sobriety.

Are you working the steps at Alanon with a sponsor? Work the program you wish he'd work. Lead by example.

His recovery is in his own hands. It sounds like he knows what he needs to do. Whether he does it or not is up to him...
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Old 08-16-2010, 12:05 PM
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My thought is that five months is not very long. If he truly means he wants recovery, five months will be a short amount of time. It will. You need this time to focus on yourself. If it is meant to be it will be after he recovers. If you intervene you will become way too involved. It is not wrong to suggest Alanon, but I do think it is wrong to set up how many meetings. What one person gets out of six meetings can be quite different for another person. I dont think setting five months is realistic either as in reality it takes so much longer.
Someone who is suffering and is in recovery does go through this. Anguish and depression is part of the recovery for almost everyone I have spoken to, and there have been many. I let my husband return to our family immediately after rehab. What a mistake. Although he has been clean since April, I have went through his ups and downs in addition to mine, and it is a mistake. I did it for my children (10 and 4). Having him gone was so hard on them I could not imagine how it would be if he stayed away. In reality, it would have been ok and I could have worked on myself more so than I have. It has been a long and hard road and honestly I should have been concentrating on myself and my girls and said to him come back after you have been clean for a long period of time and worked through all the BS.
Being clean is only the first step. They have to have their regrets and deal with where they are in life then figure out why they were self medicating in the first place. It's a long haul if they truly do it, and that is a big if. Not trying to discourage, it is just honesty.
Stay strong and give yourself this time. It will be the best thing you ever do for yourself and it will test the strength of your relationship and if he means he will do anything or if he is just saying what you want to hear right now. Rehabilitation is hard and most addicts would rather have someone there supporting them so they dont have to face doing it on their own. Unfortunately, only they alone can cure themselves.

Good Luck and God Bless!
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Old 08-16-2010, 12:33 PM
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Codependency, like addiction, is a cunning and baffling disease. It takes a lot of work to recover and stop trying to save people from themselves. And it isn't easy to change. It's uncomfortable at times.
Oh my lord, isn't it? I mean, I can see it in this instance. . . I can. It's just he makes me feel so NEEDED! Wow. . it's crazy how much I like that and still think I can help. But of course, isn't that why we form relationships at all? For love and support and mutual growth? I have to admit, it confuses me - which is why I post here- in attempt to keep myself honest.

Are you working the steps at Alanon with a sponsor? Work the program you wish he'd work. Lead by example.
This is a thorn in my side lately. I would LOVE a sponsor! I put it out there in meetings a few times, but no bites. . . they do hand out lists of people who are willing to sponsor, but there aren't many names, and unless those people talk at the meetings, I have no clue who they are. I don't feel right just calling them up on the phone having no idea who they are or what they're about.

I am trying to take it easy with the sponsor thing, but I really, really would like one and sometimes I get a little down that I haven't found someone. Then I start in my disease, wondering if I'm just not good enough, too different, no one would want to help me, etc.

It is not wrong to suggest Alanon, but I do think it is wrong to set up how many meetings. What one person gets out of six meetings can be quite different for another person. I dont think setting five months is realistic either as in reality it takes so much longer.
I only came at the number 6 because that's the number they say you should try before deciding if Al-Anon is right for you.

Five months seems long to me right now! I know maybe it's a blip in the grand scheme of things, but it just looms at me at the moment.

Another thing. . oh god, I don't even want to say it. But I will. He says he understands if I need the time, that he won't be mad, that I deserve to work on myself and get healthy. Then he said that if we don't talk, he might get so depressed he will slip! F*CK. I know that's incredibly manipulative. . .but the thing is, I TRULY DON'T THINK he's trying to be manipulative. I think he is scared sh*tless.

And I do have perhaps a bit of an over-exaggerated sense of the power I hold regarding his life. First of all, because all our friends say that I do and second of all, he really would not have gotten to rehab without all the time and energy I spent getting everyone on board for first an intervention and then in holding firm after the intervention failed in not talking to him unless he got help.

After he got out of rehab, he was really grateful and expressed that. And still does.

Is there any way for me to not abandon him without getting totally codie? I certainly was deep in it with getting him to rehab and the intervention.

Or is the sad fact of things that we are just unhealthy for each other. . .
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Old 08-16-2010, 12:53 PM
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I remember when I quit smoking crack. five months seemed an impossible goal. Oh my god. I never thought I'd be able to go longer than 4 days. It was painful and psychotic, and I didn't think I'd ever be able to quit. I got through it one day at a time.

I suggest you don't focus on the five months. Just say to yourself "Today, I will have no contact." and then give yourself the dignity of following through on your personal boundary.

Codependency is very similar to addiction. His neediness keeps sucking you back in. Like a craving for a drug. I guess that's why no contact is recommended. Being in contact with him isn't helping you and it isn't helping him either. He's still waiting for someone to save him. But he has to save himself.

That' the whole point. That's the only way it works.

He can't save you either. You have to do that.

Is there any way for me to not abandon him without getting totally codie?

You are not abandoning him. You are giving him the space and time he needs to get better. And you are giving yourself the same. Really, it's a gift for both of you.
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Old 08-16-2010, 12:58 PM
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He says he understands if I need the time, that he won't be mad, that I deserve to work on myself and get healthy. Then he said that if we don't talk, he might get so depressed he will slip!
That's absolute B.S. Totally manipulation. He's already blaming you for his relapse.

He has all the tools he needs to stay sober. He got them in rehab. If he chooses to use, that's his choice and you have no control over it. You are just not that powerful.

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Old 08-16-2010, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by NightandDay View Post
Oh my lord, isn't it? I mean, I can see it in this instance. . . I can. It's just he makes me feel so NEEDED! Wow. . it's crazy how much I like that and still think I can help.
Wouldn't you rather be loved than needed?
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Old 08-16-2010, 01:10 PM
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As a recovering addict I attend AA and NA. Step work is not group therapy. In fact most of the people in AA are very vocal about the meetings being ESH and not turning into group therapy. In rehab I went to we delved into cognitive therapy to understand why we used and it did help me. I know that this is HIS program of recovery but he won't find group therapy at an AA meeting or an NA meeting. Some meetings are very dysfunctional and I don't get anything but old drinking and drugging stories or people wanting to air out personal problems that have nothing to do with the being an alcoholic or an addict.
Your bf has to be the one to seek additional help besides step meetings. Step meetings can be great but maybe he needs more. This though is his thing to fix and don't accept any blame for what he does to himself or doesn't do. And some meetings just aren't healthy but it is on him to find meetings that meet more of his needs. It feels great to be needed and I understand that. I am a nurse, I have made a professional career out of wanting to be needed. Work on your recovery.
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Old 08-16-2010, 01:13 PM
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Wouldn't you rather be loved than needed?
Nerdgirl, not being glib at all. . . seems like a good point. Not sure I even know the difference. Would you mind articulating what that means to you?
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Old 08-16-2010, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by NightandDay View Post
Nerdgirl, not being glib at all. . . seems like a good point. Not sure I even know the difference. Would you mind articulating what that means to you?
N&D, not trying to be glib either. Words matter, and you never said how loved you feel, just the need. If you want more, you deserve more.

If it helps you -imo need implies that the other party will flounder without you. The only people who "need" in my life are my small children. Love is a feeling of admiration & mutual respect that I feel for my family, and the romantic love that I have for my husband includes the preceding as well as physical attraction. Hope that helps, words usually fail miserably to describe emotional stuff....
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Old 08-16-2010, 04:15 PM
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this brings up some interesting stuff for me.

do i feel loved? yes and no.

i admire RABF, despite many of his recent past behavior. i have known him for so long. i admire his mind and his quick wit.

at one point, we certainly had mutual respect. but that has very much suffered over the years, especially in the last year when the drug use was spiraling out of control.

physical attraction, which was not there in spades for me when we first got together (at age 19) has grown a lot for me over the years. i am really physically attracted to him now. (what can i say? his looks got a lot better with age, and he has great hair--something not a lot of guys have!)

do i feel loved though? yes, i feel loved because of all the things he SAYS. some of the things he does.

do i feel loved though? no, a lot of times i can't feel loved. i don't feel i get a lot of understanding and there are so many things that are promised but not delivered on.

i read some sticky here somewhere about confusing empathy with love. that one seemed to have a ring of truth to it for me.

but where does this leave me?

in many ways, i feel like he's just approaching what it could mean for us to really have a relationship. that is exciting to me. i mean, if he's actually sober right now. . . he hasn't been that way, well, EVER.

i've touched on this before but. . in our past, in our beginning. . he was very kind to me. i was failing out of college, i was very sad & lonely. he really gave me a lot of confidence to go out and do the things i wanted to do. . . like start acting again--- and then i decided to go to grad school and got in! yes, i did a lot of that on my own. but i can't deny he was a constant support to me.

i desperately want to return that favor. what he went through with me meant a whole lot to me, and i am really grateful he came into my life. even now, with all of this. . . it helped get me here to SR and to Al-Anon, where i have the opportunity to really examine my dysfunction. such a great gift.

my brain can accept that time apart is a gift for both of us. . . but my heart cannot. or maybe it's a combo of my heart and brain. . . i simply feel guilty. and that i'm not a "good" person. btw, i am an adult child of dry drunks (whose parents, my grandparent, were active, abusive alcoholics), so beyond RABF there's all the stuff that goes along with that that affects my thought patterns. sigh. .. feeling a tad overwhelmed.
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Old 08-16-2010, 07:47 PM
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I don't know what to tell you nightandday. In recovery we are taught, that our best thinking got us into this mess and that in order to move forward, we need to listen to others who have been through what we have been through and follow their advice.

As an adult child of alcoholics, your best thinking has gotten you into this relationship with this guy who may or may not be in recovery, but certainly if he's not using, he's on the verge of relapse. He doesn't live near you or with you. And he guilts you into staying with him by blaming you for a relapse that hasn't even happened yet (supposedly). If your relationship with him were a text book, I'd say you guys were a classic. :-)

However, I know that you are exactly where you need to be to be in this point in time. There is a lesson in all this and you need to learn it before you can move on.

I encourage you to learn it quickly. :-) Because you sound like such a nice person with so much to offer in relationship. It just doesn't seem like this man will ever really be able to walk along side of you into a beautiful relationship where each of you holds equal status. Certainly not in the present time. Certainly not with the skills he has. And you can't change him or make him better.

He's sick honey. Mentally ill with self-induced problems. Addiction. Not cancer. You can't fix him. No doctor can fix him. He has to do it on his own. It's hard work. He has to want it really bad. And as long as he's wallowing in self-pity, he doesn't want it really bad. He has to be greatful and be willing to do whatever it takes to get better, without complaint. From your description, it just doesn't sound like he's there yet.

You can fix you. If you work at it and listen to the experience of others who have been through what you are going through... and follow the advice your therapist. That's what you pay him/her for. Right?
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:15 PM
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He said he would do anything to stay in your life but your answer was still about him. Your focus is all about him. He was asking you what you needed.

Of course we want them to get well, be strong and thrive. That is never a question. But don't you need him to be there for you as much? He may have been in the past but what about his capacity now? It is next to none I'd wager because recovery is a selfish thing. It is about learning to love themselves first.

(I am writing this just a much for myself an in response to your post btw).

And of course he is scared sh*tless if you pull back. He has a person who loves him unconditionally and it requires next to zero effort on his part. I think your therapist senses that you are going to deplete yourelf if your focus is just on him. You will neglect your own life and the ability to be successful in it because of the energy and time you give to him.

I'm going to toss this out there: is there something going on in your life which you should be focusing on but are making him the 'distraction'? I do it all the time.

Finally, that distance thing. I'm in a similar situation and because I have no clue what he is up to really, my thinking about and assessing him is a form of control I exert on a situation I really have NO control over.

You can still be there for him. Still love and care and wish him the best. But honestly your approach isn't helping him. You have to let him fail and grow in the process. Nothing you do will prevent that. Nothing.

Lastly, as someone pointed out, 5 months isn't long at all. Buckle up because it will be a bumpy ride.
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Old 08-17-2010, 08:01 PM
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nightandday,

if you're anything like me, you want the answers right now, and you want to know everything as soon as possible. living in this unknown land, where we don't know how things are going to turn out, and where we just don't understand everything yet, is extremely difficult.

it will be revealed. it really will.

i think your bf is being honest about maybe wanting to use if you are not in his life, but ya know what? these are the times when the rubber hits the road. if he could stay at the rehab facility, if he could be surrounded with people who are living clean and sober lives, where his basic needs are met, well then sure he'd probably be able to stay sober. but it's when life deal out stuff that his sobriety is tested. also, i think he should be so committed to his recovery that he's not entertaining that possibility.

i think this break is going to be really good for BOTH of you. stick with your therapist, and stick with us.
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Old 08-17-2010, 08:23 PM
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I wandered over to the alcohol forum awhile ago...they were discussing the whys...seems it is right there in the Big Book.

If he has these questions, shouldn't he be taking them to his group?
If he is all ready concerned about a possible relapse, shouldn't he be taking this to his group?

Heavens to mergatroid.....my xabf said I was like a sponsor to him...I was ignorant enough at the time to try to take it on. What hogwash.

He knew where he should be going for his alcoholism. And it wasn't me.

I would suggest that you keep handing his recovery right back to him where it belongs....

you can work out your stuff on a day to day basis.
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Old 08-17-2010, 08:50 PM
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Nightandday

What struck me in your posts was your ability to be honest. I really admire that. Admitting that you know, but you don't know. In my opinion you are trying to head in the right direction. And that is all we can do, isn't it? Try to head in the right direction. I think you will get there.

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Old 08-25-2010, 10:38 PM
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*UPDATE*

had a conversation with RABF yesterday. said "I can't be your girlfriend right now because it's making me really unhappy. I can't get better this way."

He said he understands. He suggested not talking for 2 weeks. I said how about 3?

Look, I know it's not 5 months or any huge amount of time. . . but it is something.

I found a sponsor too, and have started step one! She's great! I'm sure in 3 weeks time with no contact with RABF and working with my sponsor, I will have uncovered some more of what I need and how I want to move forward.

The day before RABF & I had this discussion, I was telling my sponsor that I needed to "figure out" how we were going to separate. I told her I knew I needed the time, but I didn't know how to do it. She said just for today to know that's what I wanted and to not worry about the how.

The very next day RABF and I talked and the conversation just WENT there. I found myself speaking my truth. And. . . lo and behold I have 21 glorious days to myself!

So. . . for my sponsor, for this thread, for my (at least) 3 weeks of alone-time, I am very grateful today.
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Old 08-26-2010, 01:14 PM
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So if he calls you in four days, tells you he loves you and he needs you; and begs you to call him because he's going to relapse if you don't... what are you going to do? ;-)
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Old 08-26-2010, 01:24 PM
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1) call my sponsor
2) go to the next possible meeting
3) post on SR


I don't know what else to do?
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Old 08-26-2010, 01:36 PM
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that's future tripping anyway...who knows what tommorrow will bring.

You sound great! Congratulations!
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