Trial and error sobriety. A valid approach?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Akron OH
Posts: 57
Trial and error sobriety. A valid approach?
I feel like I am enduring a process of trial and error with my attempts at sobriety. Over the last 3 or 4 months I have have had some of the longest sober periods of my adult life, but seem to inevitably relapse. I am trying my best to learn from these screw-ups and apply that knowledge to my next go-around. I am coming to understand things that other people have been telling me about drinking and recovery; I am the type of person who learns through experience, and feel like I need this process to play out if I am ever to really understand my addiction and how to leave it behind forever. I don't seem to absorb the wisdom that others impart unto me about recovery unless I experience it myself and reach an epiphany of sorts.
So here I sit. Treating my disease like a logic puzzle, seeing my mind like a faulty piece of software that I must work through and correct.
What do you guys think of this approach? Am I dooming myself to failure by accepting relapses and trying to learn from them? I worry that I will use that as an excuse to have another relapse... argh.
I am currently back on day 3. /sigh
So here I sit. Treating my disease like a logic puzzle, seeing my mind like a faulty piece of software that I must work through and correct.
What do you guys think of this approach? Am I dooming myself to failure by accepting relapses and trying to learn from them? I worry that I will use that as an excuse to have another relapse... argh.
I am currently back on day 3. /sigh
Heathen
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: La La Land, USA
Posts: 2,567
See, the problem with that.. is (in my opinion, but it's all I've got), for me, a relapse could = death, or similar devastation.. that next 'time' could be the time I really f'd up, either health wise, legally, relationship etc. Not everyone makes it 'back' after 'relapsing' (I hate that word.. it's just drinking.). Some people say that relapse is part of recovery, which is incorrect, relapse is part of active addiction.
I had to put in place a different program of recovery for myself.. I wasn't a pro at being my own treatment center, ya know? I had to know, in my heart of hearts that I never ever wanted another drink, and did everything I could to make sure I stay on track with that. At the end of this month, I'll have been sober 2 years.. no 'relapses', lots of recovery and blessings.
Of course everyone has to find their own way.. I just hope you make it back after the next one.
I had to put in place a different program of recovery for myself.. I wasn't a pro at being my own treatment center, ya know? I had to know, in my heart of hearts that I never ever wanted another drink, and did everything I could to make sure I stay on track with that. At the end of this month, I'll have been sober 2 years.. no 'relapses', lots of recovery and blessings.
Of course everyone has to find their own way.. I just hope you make it back after the next one.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: California
Posts: 2,693
Hi Mat!
I can really relate to all of your posts. I remember you wrote your first one right around when I joined in May. I too began drinking to help me sleep.
In response to the trial-and-error approach to sobriety, I tried that for my first month or two. I also felt that I needed to experience it first hand to really tattoo it onto my brain.
I went ten days here, 11 there, 6 days there. I learned that my drinking had the same results each time: drinking more than I had planned and feeling bad about it the next day.
I would like to write more but I'll end it with this:
If our trial-and error period shows us that we're not 'that bad' (in our addict mind) or that we can control it for a certain period of time, it seems just like tossing kindling onto the not-quite-ready-to-quit fire.
I feel that we have to experience pretty hellish things to really, truly, make us want to quit. I know I did and I'm trying to block them out to this day. Some of the worst happened during my trial-and-error period in May, after I'd already decided that alcohol wasn't working for me.
I can really relate to all of your posts. I remember you wrote your first one right around when I joined in May. I too began drinking to help me sleep.
In response to the trial-and-error approach to sobriety, I tried that for my first month or two. I also felt that I needed to experience it first hand to really tattoo it onto my brain.
I went ten days here, 11 there, 6 days there. I learned that my drinking had the same results each time: drinking more than I had planned and feeling bad about it the next day.
I would like to write more but I'll end it with this:
If our trial-and error period shows us that we're not 'that bad' (in our addict mind) or that we can control it for a certain period of time, it seems just like tossing kindling onto the not-quite-ready-to-quit fire.
I feel that we have to experience pretty hellish things to really, truly, make us want to quit. I know I did and I'm trying to block them out to this day. Some of the worst happened during my trial-and-error period in May, after I'd already decided that alcohol wasn't working for me.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 5,285
I read in Physchology Today last month that relapses can be useful tools in recovery, take that for what its worth.
It took me 5 years of trial and error to quit. I would love those years back but I also think they were necessary to get here. Of course I am only 26 days in, but considering I never made it past 7 before, I like my chances:-)
It took me 5 years of trial and error to quit. I would love those years back but I also think they were necessary to get here. Of course I am only 26 days in, but considering I never made it past 7 before, I like my chances:-)
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Serene In Dixie
Posts: 36,740
Matt....
I too had many false starts before I finally quit.
I don't think logically ...but I do know my health depends
on my recovery......especially my spiritual and mental well being.
I required many lifestyle changes as well as the structure of
the AA Steps to move from often shakey sobriety
into solid recovery....
Hope this will be your final go round...and it can be!
All my best.
I too had many false starts before I finally quit.
I don't think logically ...but I do know my health depends
on my recovery......especially my spiritual and mental well being.
I required many lifestyle changes as well as the structure of
the AA Steps to move from often shakey sobriety
into solid recovery....
Hope this will be your final go round...and it can be!
All my best.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: California
Posts: 2,693
Hi Matt,
I thought about one more thing that I experienced:
I think I tried the trial-and-error period to see if I could maybe find some way to make drinking work again. It didn't work. Each time I was reminded of the reasons why I wanted to stop in the first place, even if it was something as basic as a hangover.
I thought about one more thing that I experienced:
I think I tried the trial-and-error period to see if I could maybe find some way to make drinking work again. It didn't work. Each time I was reminded of the reasons why I wanted to stop in the first place, even if it was something as basic as a hangover.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Mat 
What do you guys think of this approach? Am I dooming myself to failure by accepting relapses and trying to learn from them? I worry that I will use that as an excuse to have another relapse... argh.
Even 99% effectiveness is not good enough when a relapse results in near suicidal behavior. I eventually would have died from the 1% margin for error.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,384
I dunno Mat - To me there is no logic to alcoholism so while trying to 'solve' it logically like a puzzle sounds good...I tried to as well.... I was simply putting off what I knew I really needed to do - really act - and stop for good.
I have 20 years of trial and error - whatever I thought I learned from my last relapse would go straight out the window the next day or next week or whatever....
I finished up no more the wiser in 2007 than I was in 1987 really
D
I have 20 years of trial and error - whatever I thought I learned from my last relapse would go straight out the window the next day or next week or whatever....
I finished up no more the wiser in 2007 than I was in 1987 really
D
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Where's the logic in alcoholism? It is an insanity of sorts, illogical at it's very root. Intellectualizing it has only left me frustrated and unhappy. There are ways out. Trying to find logic in it hasn't worked for me.
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Dancing in the Light
Posts: 61,476
I think there is some logic in that you need to figure out what works for you, because what works for one may not work for another.
But, each relapse is so potentially dangerous. I think there is so much good first-hand information here at SR, that it is really worth considering some of it.
But, each relapse is so potentially dangerous. I think there is so much good first-hand information here at SR, that it is really worth considering some of it.
Guest
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,013
I can see where you're coming from to an extent I think.
This a post of mine from 11th July 2009 entitled 'coming to the end' or something like that.
It’s kinda hard to describe but it's been a gradual process happening over the course of the last 9 months and especially during my last massive binge. Basically getting wrecked has felt like a journey with obviously the beginning (honeymoon), Middle (plateau - groundhog-day) and now the ending (Going to AA meetings and wanting sobriety).
there is just a gut feeling that I have inside of me that gives me strength and that I feel like sobriety is 'coming in its own time' and is not be forced at all, it has to naturally come.
The feelings I get when bingeing now, when coming down/hungover, are so very Low and Hopeless that I literally could not carry on down the path as I would either drink myself to death/commit suicide/or be institutionalised just due to the severity of the Lows that I get. It became apparent to me that I am different to "peers" of mine of the "wreckhead" variety in that they seem to either not get the Lows or just be able to cope with them or that they are not bothered about maintaining getting drunk/drugged which is fair enough.
I know in my heart that the person I become is not truly "me" Or who I really want to be but an "Alter-ego" who is a whirlwind and cannot be stopped.
This gives me great hope/strength that at age 23 I am feeling this as it makes me feel deep-down that maybe it will be possible for me to not have to have binges in the future and that I can succeed in whatever I do and be Happy and at peace with myself.
Thanks. Just needed to write this down.
I have not had a drink or drug since this and will be 13 months sober on Sunday 8th August 2010.
However I really had to commit to my sobriety and recovery. I knew without doubt that I'm an alcoholic. I accepted that fact to my innermost core. I had to gain that through experince. I reached the stage where Iwas beaten by alcohol.
However I knew that there were "last hits, and then last hits" through bitter experience. You gotta stay away from that first drink at all costs 'just for today'. otherwise I know I would never stand a chance.
Once you know you're an alcoholic,and truly accept and are willing to so something about it, then you've got to not take the first drink under any circumstance and then get working a recovery program of some degree. The majority of those 13 months have been very contented and grateful. Simply because i don't think like I used to when i was still actively drinking and not properly in recovery.
All The best
This a post of mine from 11th July 2009 entitled 'coming to the end' or something like that.
It’s kinda hard to describe but it's been a gradual process happening over the course of the last 9 months and especially during my last massive binge. Basically getting wrecked has felt like a journey with obviously the beginning (honeymoon), Middle (plateau - groundhog-day) and now the ending (Going to AA meetings and wanting sobriety).
there is just a gut feeling that I have inside of me that gives me strength and that I feel like sobriety is 'coming in its own time' and is not be forced at all, it has to naturally come.
The feelings I get when bingeing now, when coming down/hungover, are so very Low and Hopeless that I literally could not carry on down the path as I would either drink myself to death/commit suicide/or be institutionalised just due to the severity of the Lows that I get. It became apparent to me that I am different to "peers" of mine of the "wreckhead" variety in that they seem to either not get the Lows or just be able to cope with them or that they are not bothered about maintaining getting drunk/drugged which is fair enough.
I know in my heart that the person I become is not truly "me" Or who I really want to be but an "Alter-ego" who is a whirlwind and cannot be stopped.
This gives me great hope/strength that at age 23 I am feeling this as it makes me feel deep-down that maybe it will be possible for me to not have to have binges in the future and that I can succeed in whatever I do and be Happy and at peace with myself.
Thanks. Just needed to write this down.
I have not had a drink or drug since this and will be 13 months sober on Sunday 8th August 2010.
However I really had to commit to my sobriety and recovery. I knew without doubt that I'm an alcoholic. I accepted that fact to my innermost core. I had to gain that through experince. I reached the stage where Iwas beaten by alcohol.
However I knew that there were "last hits, and then last hits" through bitter experience. You gotta stay away from that first drink at all costs 'just for today'. otherwise I know I would never stand a chance.
Once you know you're an alcoholic,and truly accept and are willing to so something about it, then you've got to not take the first drink under any circumstance and then get working a recovery program of some degree. The majority of those 13 months have been very contented and grateful. Simply because i don't think like I used to when i was still actively drinking and not properly in recovery.
All The best
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
I very "logically" attempted to moderate my drinking for four and a half years.
Here's what *I* learned:
It's not possible to think your way out of alcoholism, and if you keep relapsing, it's a pretty good bet that you are an alcoholic. You have to make that decision for yourself, but non-alcoholics don't repeatedly slip into dangerous drinking behavior.
I wish I had made the "experiment" a lot shorter--I wasn't honest with myself about my lack of progress. I kept thinking, OK, I know what I did wrong THAT time, NEXT time I'll do x, y, or z. X, y, and z led to the same result.
The problem is that we lie to ourselves about our drinking--we have a zillion excuses, rationalizations, and blind spots. It isn't that we are stupid, it's that we have to do these things to maintain the addiction--which is what we've become WIRED to do.
A short trial-and-error period doesn't hurt (probably--depends on what your drinking behavior is--how dangerous, whether you do things to put yourself or others at physical risk when you drink), if you look at the results with brutal honesty as a way of convincing yourself whether you need to do something different. But keep in mind that most of us have found that we need to surrender to the fact that we can NEVER drink safely, make that our number one priority, and if what we are doing isn't working, we must try something different--AA, intensive counselling or rehab, some other abstinence-based program.
Alcoholism is progressive. It pays to get a handle on a method of recovery that will work for you as soon as possible.
Here's what *I* learned:
It's not possible to think your way out of alcoholism, and if you keep relapsing, it's a pretty good bet that you are an alcoholic. You have to make that decision for yourself, but non-alcoholics don't repeatedly slip into dangerous drinking behavior.
I wish I had made the "experiment" a lot shorter--I wasn't honest with myself about my lack of progress. I kept thinking, OK, I know what I did wrong THAT time, NEXT time I'll do x, y, or z. X, y, and z led to the same result.
The problem is that we lie to ourselves about our drinking--we have a zillion excuses, rationalizations, and blind spots. It isn't that we are stupid, it's that we have to do these things to maintain the addiction--which is what we've become WIRED to do.
A short trial-and-error period doesn't hurt (probably--depends on what your drinking behavior is--how dangerous, whether you do things to put yourself or others at physical risk when you drink), if you look at the results with brutal honesty as a way of convincing yourself whether you need to do something different. But keep in mind that most of us have found that we need to surrender to the fact that we can NEVER drink safely, make that our number one priority, and if what we are doing isn't working, we must try something different--AA, intensive counselling or rehab, some other abstinence-based program.
Alcoholism is progressive. It pays to get a handle on a method of recovery that will work for you as soon as possible.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Akron OH
Posts: 57
I am still seeing a counselor that deals with mental health/addiction, but I have yet to take part in any program like AA or SMART. Myself living in Akron OH, AA meetings seem to dominate the local atmosphere. I really don't feel that route is for me, as I am not a spiritual person in any sense of the word.
To clarify: I don't ever intend to relapse again, but when it does happen I try to figure out why it happened and how I can avoid the circumstances which led to said relapse. I don't mean to justify the fact that I drank again by creating a learning experience out of it. Perhaps my broken mind will always find a route back to the beer isle, and the idea that I can learn from prior paths I followed there is entirely futile, but if that is the case what then?
I am definitely not trying to make my drinking manageable. I have been trying to do that for years and it has always ended in catastrophic failure, usually on the first night.
To clarify: I don't ever intend to relapse again, but when it does happen I try to figure out why it happened and how I can avoid the circumstances which led to said relapse. I don't mean to justify the fact that I drank again by creating a learning experience out of it. Perhaps my broken mind will always find a route back to the beer isle, and the idea that I can learn from prior paths I followed there is entirely futile, but if that is the case what then?
I am definitely not trying to make my drinking manageable. I have been trying to do that for years and it has always ended in catastrophic failure, usually on the first night.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Akron OH
Posts: 57
Further clarification: I never endanger myself(save for my long term health) or others while drinking, I never even leave my home! I get drunk to sleep at night, and have been doing this for 10ish years. My biggest fear is the long term health consequences I will face as a result of my behavior. If it were not for these consequences I really wouldn't mind just going on the way I have been. I haven't ever been in any sort of legal trouble, or bothered my friends/family while intoxicated. In fact, almost none of them have even seen me drunk. I am probably drunk for about 2 hours a day when I am at my lowest(not counting the hours asleep). I know full well that I am an alcoholic, that I don't get DUI's or go out starting fights doesn't make me any different in terms of the addiction itself. I also know that if I keep down this path, I will end up in a hospital bed with my belly full of fluid hoping for a liver transplant. I have to stop.
Too many of you are echoing similar experiences with this method... I have a feeling this isn't going to be good enough after reading these replies. Maybe I will try to find yet another counselor to work with(on top of the one I already have).
Too many of you are echoing similar experiences with this method... I have a feeling this isn't going to be good enough after reading these replies. Maybe I will try to find yet another counselor to work with(on top of the one I already have).
RIP Sweet Suki
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: In my sanctuary, my home
Posts: 39,870
The thing is though, another "learning experience" might end tragically. We are never guaranteed to get through another relapse.
Many people who are not spiritual have found success in AA. You also mentioned the SMART program, which has been beneficial to many, also. If what you have been doing isn't working, it's time to do something different. I've heard it said that until you are ready to do whatever it takes to stay sober, you aren't yet at your bottom.
Many people who are not spiritual have found success in AA. You also mentioned the SMART program, which has been beneficial to many, also. If what you have been doing isn't working, it's time to do something different. I've heard it said that until you are ready to do whatever it takes to stay sober, you aren't yet at your bottom.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Just one more thought, you don't have to be "spiritual" to benefit from AA. Working the steps, if you choose to do so, can bring about a spiritual awakening, but you don't have to believe in God or anything specific. The "higher power" thing is basically an admission that we aren't God ourselves, and that there are certain things (such as our alcoholism) that we are powerless over. We are powerless over all kinds of things--the weather, other people, etc. For me, the spiritual part is really bringing myself into alignment with what I truly am, and can be.
Moreover, the face-to-face support, the coolness of being in a room with other people who are living in the solution, is a very powerful thing. It's certainly worth checking out, at the very least. No matter how negative I am feeling, when I go to a meeting I almost always hear one or two thoughts shared that are what I needed to hear.
AA is free, there is no obligation, nothing you have to "sign up for". If you try it and don't like it, you are free to try something else. But geeze, living in Akron, I think you'd be cheating yourself not to at least check it out.
Incidentally, one of my ex-husbands had to have 40 quarts of fluid drained from his abdomen when his liver shut down. You are smart to take that possibility seriously.
Moreover, the face-to-face support, the coolness of being in a room with other people who are living in the solution, is a very powerful thing. It's certainly worth checking out, at the very least. No matter how negative I am feeling, when I go to a meeting I almost always hear one or two thoughts shared that are what I needed to hear.
AA is free, there is no obligation, nothing you have to "sign up for". If you try it and don't like it, you are free to try something else. But geeze, living in Akron, I think you'd be cheating yourself not to at least check it out.
Incidentally, one of my ex-husbands had to have 40 quarts of fluid drained from his abdomen when his liver shut down. You are smart to take that possibility seriously.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Akron OH
Posts: 57
LexieCat: That post was very helpful to me. I definitely won't end up believing in any sort of God(s), but I already know not only that I am not God myself but that I have absolutely no power over my drinking. Actually that makes it sort of silly that I am trying to defeat it with my intellect... You made me have one of those epiphanies here, I think. I am powerless over it, so now what? I know the answer isn't to throw in the towel, but if I don't accept the existence of some benevolent deity who wants to help pull me out of this hole I am in, then what???
I post on quite a few forums(about skepticism, gaming, programming), but I think that I have left more question marks in my ~15 posts here than in any given 250 posts elsewhere. hah
I post on quite a few forums(about skepticism, gaming, programming), but I think that I have left more question marks in my ~15 posts here than in any given 250 posts elsewhere. hah
SR Fan
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 7,910
Are you making progress at all by doing this? That is the question I guess I would ask myself. You said you had some of the longest periods sober, so that counts for something. But if your relapses are getting closer and closer together, perhaps you're not learning as much as you think you are. (Just asking here)
It does seem that people in recovery reach a point where they know down deep that they can't continue anymore. It could be that you feel still somewhat in control, that you're not powerless over alcohol?
I don't think it necessarily takes some horrible event to want to get sober. It didn't for me. I did feel it had beat me, though.
I don't seem to absorb the wisdom that others impart unto me about recovery unless I experience it myself and reach an epiphany of sorts.
I don't think it necessarily takes some horrible event to want to get sober. It didn't for me. I did feel it had beat me, though.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Akron OH
Posts: 57
I feel like I have made some progress in terms of learning things that trigger my relapses.
-women/dating
-activities that I have associated with drinking(like a certain online video game, silly as that is)
-sleep anxiety and insomnia
Like I said before though, this might be a futile list-making endeavor that keeps getting longer and longer as my brain develops new triggers as I exhaust it's supply of old ones.
This(quitting) is the most complicated and difficult thing that I have ever tried to do.
-women/dating
-activities that I have associated with drinking(like a certain online video game, silly as that is)
-sleep anxiety and insomnia
Like I said before though, this might be a futile list-making endeavor that keeps getting longer and longer as my brain develops new triggers as I exhaust it's supply of old ones.
This(quitting) is the most complicated and difficult thing that I have ever tried to do.
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