Lithobid

Recently a friend of mine mentioned this to me, and I'd never heard of it. I investigated further, and was a little shocked at what I found out. Not being convinced by any of it, but amazed that someone, had taken so much time, thought, and effort to produce such a thing. I'm not here to start any kind of controversy at all, I'm curious about why such a thing exists? And curious if anyone here on the forum has more experience with them? As a newcomer to AA, and to self-help forums such as this, I like to look at all sides of matters, and as openly as possible, and I was a little surprised that something as big as the Orange Papers existed, and had not been talked about before at any AA meetings.

Love to hear your opinions, advice,

-Lith

Dee74

I spent my early recovery fighting windmills too LOL.

The older I get, I hope I get wiser with it.

A lot of time gets wasted in silly controversies like these.
I've never seen anyone get sober by embroiling themselves in stuff like this.

I reckon anyone who puts that much into putting something else down is wasting a lot of effort that could go into something worthwhile

D

Mark75

They are not the only ones out there... You may like to look at all sides of an issue... but they don't.

coming_clean

whats the orange papers??

is it like the yellow papers but then recovery related??

yeahgr8

Its a great idea, AA is known all round the world imagine how many people will hit that site whilst searching for AA related stuff...the idea is to pick a 'brand', write a load of crap about it either saying its great or rubbish with as many different ideas as possible...got friends who run sites like that, obviously i couldnt do it with this one cos i go to AA but like i said the site is pretty powerful...send some ideas if he isnt already doing it like being an affiliate for amazon, hazeldean, rehab centres etc...seriously can make a really good income if you have the time to commit and patience to wait for the site to get popular:-)

flutter

Early in recovery I read most of them.. I found it all pretty interesting to say the least.

I think the bottom line is to find what works best for you, enhances your life, and supports healthy recovery.

Toronto68

I clicked around and noticed it seems to be a long dissertation on how AA is a spooky cult. A lot of who knew whom and who was sympathizing with Hitler or a closet effeminate and whatever historical knitting one can do. Boooo!

stugotz

Some cult AA is. You quit, you die......

NEOMARXIST

Never heard of it before. Not going to check it out either to be honest.

I am interested in living a happy, peaceful, grateful life that just keeps getting better and better. I enjoy having hope and keeping positive and seeing the beauty in things and not trying to be negative towards things.

I have absolutely no idea what these orange papers refer to but I assume it's just someone slating AA. My guess is that most of the people reading that stuff and getting deeply involved with it ain't never gonna stay sober. Not becuase AA is the only way, far from it, it certanily wasn't for this alkie and addict. However I try to practice peace and love towards things that genuinely help people and turn their lives around.

Peace and Love. I am glad that I made sure that I kept and continue to keep sober 'one day at a time' and stopped wasting my time getting embroiled in stupid debates that serve no purpose for somebody who is trying to recover from alcoholism. Come one, come all. Recovery from alcoholism is possible. It's great.

Peace

least

My old grandpa used to say "it's good if you like it". I think he was a wise man. Whatever works for you...

luckedog

If anyone is really interested A guy named A. Orange wrote some garbage about AA being a cult. He apparently never read the dictionary meaning of a cult. If you want to waste your time Just Google "The Orange Papers".

The main problem with his attack on AA is, in a cult the members all believe in the same person, god, or religious system. In SR and AA both, we all have individual beliefs and different religious beliefs. About the only thing we could all agree on is that we don’t want Alcohol in control our lives anymore!
I liked what NOMARXIST said...Happy Peacefull Gratefull Loving life!!

He also goes in depth About "The !2 Secrets of AA" Really IMO Dont waste your time. It is a distraction for one working to get and stay sober!

Lithobid

I appreciate the comments so far, and they are, to be honest exactly what I expected to hear from this group, and part of the reason I wanted to post about it is if I keep things like this a secret in my "sick" head, my mind likes to run with it, and turn it into something it's not, i.e. (I'm the only person on earth who's discovered these sites, and I am the exception and I don't need meetings anymore!) - Is that sick or what?!?

Luckedog my sentiments are with you exactly, and I've tossed this rubbish out of my mind, but only because I got it "out" of my mind. I am interested in changing myself in a positive manner, and that does not involve using alcohol anymore, and AA is a wonderful place, that has been kind and supportive and helpful in allowing me to do so. That really was my answer right there to begin with, although, it's tough when you can't rely on your own brain, for solid information. Thanks all, I appreciate you helping me filter, I'm sure you'll come to the rescue again.

-Lith

Boleo

While there is a kernal of truth to most everything said at this websight, further investigation revealed a strong bias and a weak journalistic effort. It seems to me that this guy did just enough research to support his delusional opinion but stopped short of getting at the full story.

If you want to know the in depth history behind AA try reading some
Ernest Kurtz books.

SSIL75

I read some of it. I think it has some merit. AA is not for everyone. There are other paths.

susanlauren

The reason you haven't heard the Orange Papers mentioned in AA meetings is because AA follows its tradition of not engaging in public controversy. AA does not endorse or oppose any cause. If an individual or a group wants to slam AA, so be it. AA members will continue the AA primary purpose of staying sober and helping other alcoholics to achieve sobriety. I read a good bit of the Orange Papers website. There is some truth to nearly everything that is said. The problem is that "some truth" is not the "whole truth". It is very easy to tell the truth in such a way as to make it (the truth) a lie. That is what the Orange Paper website does, in my opinion. I still attend AA and I still live its program of action. Why? Because AA works. SusanLauren

tellus

You know, it's funny. Back when I was in AA, there was this one guy, completely batsh*t. The type who thinks that the government is monitoring him through his pancakes or whatever. He gave me a link to his "self-published book," which had a format almost identical to The Orange Papers (which I'd never heard of until now). When I see a webpage like that, content almost takes a backseat -- I automatically file it under "some crazy's manifesto."

That said, I googled The Orange Papers and skimmed through a few of the articles and, although I agree with many of his points, I don't find the website helpful in the least. At the risk of sounding "new-agey," the author is channeling some serious negative energy into this thing. I harbor some serious resentments towards AA, but I actively try to push them to the back burner -- resentments don't help anything. This dude seems to be cultivating his resentments and pouring an enormous amount of energy into them. I'd rather work towards improving myself and my outlook on life.

Lithobid, thanks for this thread -- I needed a reminder of why I shouldn't let my resentments fester! Very timely.

MagdaTheGreat

If AA would stop cooperating with courts that force people to attend, the organization could avoid a lot of the acrimony towards it. AA is supposedly for people who want it, but way too many people are there under threat of jail.

Bamboozle

The author of the site had a bad experience and that is how he chose to talk about it. He explains where he's coming from in the introduction.

tsukiko

A faith, in anything, like a car on the production line or whatever, needs to be challenged, have stuff thrown at it etc to test its strength, identify its weaknesses etc. Only then can we develop or deepen or even work out what we believe. Unchallenged (thus, fragile) beliefs and faith won't get us through the storms or survive when our life seems -as life can- a total car crash.
There's always at least two sides to every story and most simply NA / AA is one, The Orange Papers is another.
When I was researching The Holocaust I read Mein Kampf, didn't turn me into a Nazi, I just like to read as broadly and stretch and exercise my mind much as I do my body. Books can have an influence, but what we do with or how we process that is ultimately our own responsibility.

Just wanted to add- I thought how you worded your post, Lithobid, was sensitive, good going.



Also, to add to that -

I wrote a stage play once as an exploration of not specifically NA /AA, but the langauge etc used in self help groups etc and it was seen as hugely controversial. A lot of people took it like blasephemy against NA specifically - which it was not written. Way I see it, the uproar said more about the precariousness and fragility of certain individuals beliefs than about the play's intentions. If a group, religion, philosphy, movement etc has 'good intentions' and a genuine use then it has nothing to fear, but a lot to thank, of any criticism as critisicm will only expose its strength and reinforce it. Take any philosophy...a philosopher proposes something, a way to live etc and a hundred philospohers spend the next hundred years exploring and testing that philosophy...if they didn't we'd never know if the philosophy has any substence etc to it. I wasn't, in writing the play, attacking the people who find what they need in any self help organisation, far from it; the play was an expression of my own thoughts, questions, confusion etc which helped me in my recovery. Anybody who wanted to read the play was welcome, but nobody was forced.

Ainslie

I think theres lots of anti-aa/aa conspiracies out there. They work no better for me than the concept of AA itself as I understand it. What keeps me sober is constantly searching for more information on addiction and expanding my knowledge.....I guess I read instead of going to meetings. Like other people have stated above in similar ways - no matter whose school of thought im attending, I know the answer in my heart all along.....and that is that booze doesnt make my life better.