Upsetting News for my XAH has got me all triggered
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Upsetting News for my XAH has got me all triggered
One of my major "codie triggers" with my XAH, in our marriage as well as in our divorce, has been his career issues. He has his law degree, but failed the bar exam the first time he took it and then never took it again, choosing a job in the financial sector instead. After that market kind of collapsed and he got laid off from his last decent job in 2000 (yes, 10 years ago) he was never really able to get reestablished in that field because his credit is so crappy (mainly unpaid student loans--lets just say that he owes more in student loans than the average person pays for a house--a BIG house).
At the time, way back in 2000, he didn't really care so much because he was in the midst of his happy alcoholic days and he was content to work jobs where he could drink 24/7, like waiting tables. That degenerated into not really working much at all. He got quite a few jobs over the years we were married (03 to 09) but either lost or quit them all--usually quit them. Most of the jobs, to be fair, were pretty low level or bad, but a few could have been decent opportunities if he didn't feel at the time that they were "beneath him" and/or if he had his drinking enough under control to actually work them well.
But I digress. Here's my real issue. In the year and a half since we were separated and then divorced, he got an OK job, quit it, lost his license, went to salvation army, left early, nearly drank himself to death, got another millionth "second chance" and had gotten himself a room in a long-term hotel place, and a job as a line cook--a job opportunity I had always encouraged him to pursue because I knew that he does have cooking talent and some restaurant experience, and I thought he would at least be able to support himself doing this. Many times in the past he told me that he thought the restaurant environment was not good for him, that it would be a trigger for his alcoholism, and that at this point he was too old. But when he got this job I think he thought that he really just needed to do whatever it took to be able to support himself, and to check his ego at the door. He told me this himself, and I know that at this job he was doing a good, responsible job of getting his butt there on public transportation (not always easy in our city), working long, demanding shifts, and really trying.
And then he got fired. For being too slow, and for not having up to par "knife skills" or enough experience. He felt humiliated, and hurt, and it hurt me too to hear him so upset. Thumper mentioned in another thread one time about feeling very upset thinking about her XA being in pain or turmoil, even though she didn't like or respect him very much. That describes me to a T.
Now he's talking suicide, and/or trying to manipulate me with every fiber in his being into ending my relationship with my boyfriend and coming back to him. He's been doing this last all along anyway, but I know that even though some of it is based in what he feels like is love for me and my daughter, a very large part of it is based in him feeling very afraid that he will never be able to support himself without having someone else to lean on financially.
He will be out of money in about two weeks, and I don't know what to do. He says he'll either kill himself or "go homeless" even though I have our marital home (a condo) sitting empty at the moment and have even offered it to him as a place to stay rent free while he searches for other employment. I offered it with strings attached--that he must be out in two months, that he not trash the place or drink in it. I don't know what to do. I feel like maybe I should just call his bluff, as I am so frakking sick of trying to do what in my mind is lending a hand up to a person in need and having him exploit it as another opportunity to tell me that he will never be whole again without me in his life. He told me today that the day I tell him I am getting married to my current boyfriend is the day he will definitely commit suicide. I told him that the fact that he could even say or believe something like that is another in my long list of reasons of why I feel getting back with him romantically is something I could not do, because someone that mentally unhealthy and manipulative is not someone I could love. I have told him that the best "future hope" I can offer him is that if he wants to try and become a healthy person in recovery and I saw this dramatic change in him, I could not say "never' as I can not predict the future, but that I don't ever again want to be someone's mother or psychiatric nurse maid in a relationship. He just keeps repeating that he knows I truly love him, that he will never not keep pushing for me to get back together, and that the help he needs from me now is to be out of my current relationship.
I'm rambling, I know, but this is driving me out of my gourd. I'm going to end this here for now but I'll probably add more to this as I think of it.
At the time, way back in 2000, he didn't really care so much because he was in the midst of his happy alcoholic days and he was content to work jobs where he could drink 24/7, like waiting tables. That degenerated into not really working much at all. He got quite a few jobs over the years we were married (03 to 09) but either lost or quit them all--usually quit them. Most of the jobs, to be fair, were pretty low level or bad, but a few could have been decent opportunities if he didn't feel at the time that they were "beneath him" and/or if he had his drinking enough under control to actually work them well.
But I digress. Here's my real issue. In the year and a half since we were separated and then divorced, he got an OK job, quit it, lost his license, went to salvation army, left early, nearly drank himself to death, got another millionth "second chance" and had gotten himself a room in a long-term hotel place, and a job as a line cook--a job opportunity I had always encouraged him to pursue because I knew that he does have cooking talent and some restaurant experience, and I thought he would at least be able to support himself doing this. Many times in the past he told me that he thought the restaurant environment was not good for him, that it would be a trigger for his alcoholism, and that at this point he was too old. But when he got this job I think he thought that he really just needed to do whatever it took to be able to support himself, and to check his ego at the door. He told me this himself, and I know that at this job he was doing a good, responsible job of getting his butt there on public transportation (not always easy in our city), working long, demanding shifts, and really trying.
And then he got fired. For being too slow, and for not having up to par "knife skills" or enough experience. He felt humiliated, and hurt, and it hurt me too to hear him so upset. Thumper mentioned in another thread one time about feeling very upset thinking about her XA being in pain or turmoil, even though she didn't like or respect him very much. That describes me to a T.
Now he's talking suicide, and/or trying to manipulate me with every fiber in his being into ending my relationship with my boyfriend and coming back to him. He's been doing this last all along anyway, but I know that even though some of it is based in what he feels like is love for me and my daughter, a very large part of it is based in him feeling very afraid that he will never be able to support himself without having someone else to lean on financially.
He will be out of money in about two weeks, and I don't know what to do. He says he'll either kill himself or "go homeless" even though I have our marital home (a condo) sitting empty at the moment and have even offered it to him as a place to stay rent free while he searches for other employment. I offered it with strings attached--that he must be out in two months, that he not trash the place or drink in it. I don't know what to do. I feel like maybe I should just call his bluff, as I am so frakking sick of trying to do what in my mind is lending a hand up to a person in need and having him exploit it as another opportunity to tell me that he will never be whole again without me in his life. He told me today that the day I tell him I am getting married to my current boyfriend is the day he will definitely commit suicide. I told him that the fact that he could even say or believe something like that is another in my long list of reasons of why I feel getting back with him romantically is something I could not do, because someone that mentally unhealthy and manipulative is not someone I could love. I have told him that the best "future hope" I can offer him is that if he wants to try and become a healthy person in recovery and I saw this dramatic change in him, I could not say "never' as I can not predict the future, but that I don't ever again want to be someone's mother or psychiatric nurse maid in a relationship. He just keeps repeating that he knows I truly love him, that he will never not keep pushing for me to get back together, and that the help he needs from me now is to be out of my current relationship.
I'm rambling, I know, but this is driving me out of my gourd. I'm going to end this here for now but I'll probably add more to this as I think of it.
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Well, there's not one easy answer to that question, but I've thought a lot about that. First, I think I'm an example of somebody who actually wasn't "truly ready" to divorce when I did...I still had a lot of feelings for my ex, and even when I separated for the last time I gave him hope that our relationship could still be repaired, if he would do X, Y and Z (get and keep a job, regular AA, therapy). When he didn't do those things is when I felt that I could let go enough to start moving on, and that's when I began therapy and began a new relationship (with an old boyfriend--I don't think I would have been comfortable getting close so quickly with someone I didn't already know from my past).
Part of me has always been conflicted about starting my new relationship when I did, but I have been completely honest with my bf about my struggles, about where I'm at with all of this, etc. And for the past year, I've been honest with my ex about the same--that it is truly over for me, that I don't want to get back with him, etc.
But he's not getting the message, and I know that's a large part my fault. I honestly have not given him any false hope in the sense that as I said, I've been honest all the time about not wanting him back, that I'm in a new relationship, that even if I wasn't I don't believe we would ever work out again, etc. But the thing is, I've wanted to have my cake and eat it too. The reason I felt like I wasn't truly ready to let go when I left him is I knew I would still be so worried about his well being, that he couldn't "make it" without me, and I still do care that he is at least "OK"--as in, able to support himself, not homeless, not suicidal, so I still feel the need to jump in and "help him" when I feel the situation warrants. It's easy for me to go no contact with him and let him lie in his own bed, etc., when he's drinking and being insane. When he's sober and seems so hurt and miserable about where he is in life, when he tries to get something going and fails (like this last job) that is when I find the part of me that still is so worried about his well-being going into overdrive.
I will say that even though it may not seem like it, I have made strides in this area. I don't clean up as many messes as I used to, and I've gotten more and more comfortable with the idea that even the worst consequences I can imagine--i.e, him being homeless, him killing himself--are not my fault, and not really in my power to prevent. It's just--that is where my struggle still lies. I'm still terrified that something like that will happen and I won't be able to live with the guilt. Because the truth is, if I took him back today, at least he wouldn't be homeless. MY life would probably be hell, as I don't believe his insistence that if I would just do this, he would magically be healed, but I gotta admit, HIS life wouldn't be as dire and dismal as it seems.
I know this is sick thinking, but it's hard for me sometimes to not see it this way. And THAT is why I still can't make myself let go completely. I do think I'm worth happiness and peace, but sometimes I feel like if it comes at the expense of someone else's life, is that too big a price to pay? And sometimes it feels so good to let go, but then eventually, when I know he's at a crossroads and needs some immediate help, my anxiety and guilt takes over and I go back to trying to fix things for him. I feel like a lot of women have it easier than me in this respect too, as he has no "enabling parent that will let him live in the basement" or "drinking buddy whose couch he can crash on" or "girlfriend who helps support him". His sole support system is me, and one sister who lives 60 miles away and will not take him in.
Part of me has always been conflicted about starting my new relationship when I did, but I have been completely honest with my bf about my struggles, about where I'm at with all of this, etc. And for the past year, I've been honest with my ex about the same--that it is truly over for me, that I don't want to get back with him, etc.
But he's not getting the message, and I know that's a large part my fault. I honestly have not given him any false hope in the sense that as I said, I've been honest all the time about not wanting him back, that I'm in a new relationship, that even if I wasn't I don't believe we would ever work out again, etc. But the thing is, I've wanted to have my cake and eat it too. The reason I felt like I wasn't truly ready to let go when I left him is I knew I would still be so worried about his well being, that he couldn't "make it" without me, and I still do care that he is at least "OK"--as in, able to support himself, not homeless, not suicidal, so I still feel the need to jump in and "help him" when I feel the situation warrants. It's easy for me to go no contact with him and let him lie in his own bed, etc., when he's drinking and being insane. When he's sober and seems so hurt and miserable about where he is in life, when he tries to get something going and fails (like this last job) that is when I find the part of me that still is so worried about his well-being going into overdrive.
I will say that even though it may not seem like it, I have made strides in this area. I don't clean up as many messes as I used to, and I've gotten more and more comfortable with the idea that even the worst consequences I can imagine--i.e, him being homeless, him killing himself--are not my fault, and not really in my power to prevent. It's just--that is where my struggle still lies. I'm still terrified that something like that will happen and I won't be able to live with the guilt. Because the truth is, if I took him back today, at least he wouldn't be homeless. MY life would probably be hell, as I don't believe his insistence that if I would just do this, he would magically be healed, but I gotta admit, HIS life wouldn't be as dire and dismal as it seems.
I know this is sick thinking, but it's hard for me sometimes to not see it this way. And THAT is why I still can't make myself let go completely. I do think I'm worth happiness and peace, but sometimes I feel like if it comes at the expense of someone else's life, is that too big a price to pay? And sometimes it feels so good to let go, but then eventually, when I know he's at a crossroads and needs some immediate help, my anxiety and guilt takes over and I go back to trying to fix things for him. I feel like a lot of women have it easier than me in this respect too, as he has no "enabling parent that will let him live in the basement" or "drinking buddy whose couch he can crash on" or "girlfriend who helps support him". His sole support system is me, and one sister who lives 60 miles away and will not take him in.
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One of my payoffs was the need to be needed. I got a superiority fix from seeing my XAH as a helpless soul who couldn't possibly handle life as an independent adult. Not surprisingly, the more I treated him as being incompetent, the more he was.
L
L
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Originally Posted by LaTeeDa 
One of my payoffs was the need to be needed. I got a superiority fix from seeing my XAH as a helpless soul who couldn't possibly handle life as an independent adult. Not surprisingly, the more I treated him as being incompetent, the more he was.
L
L
So now think about what it would do to YOUR life and your daughter's if you allowed him to weasel in. Play that tape all the way through (as I have learned here). What is it REALLY like when he lives with you?
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Sister, he's really got your number! Really...is this where you want to be in your life? If you feel so responsible for him, then by golly, go ahead and let him move into the condo, furnish it and fill up the pantry while you're at it, too.
Either that or go No Contact ...which would be the healthier choice in my opinion.
Why your current boyfriend tolerates this BS is beyond me.
Either that or go No Contact ...which would be the healthier choice in my opinion.
Why your current boyfriend tolerates this BS is beyond me.
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And my AXH has not reached out to me in 10 months and I know full well that if he did, I wiould be in BIG trouble. When he is nasty to me, I am certain about what I have done, but it would be very difficult for me to resist him if he dais "I screwed up and I can't make it without you." So I sympathize with you.
I'm honestly not trying to be contrary and defensive--I have said this to my therapist too--but I sometimes feel the need to play "devil's advocate" against the advice I know in my heart to be the true and healthy advice because that is where I get stuck, these are the "unhealthy thoughts" in my head that I want for someone to point out to me why they aren't true. So please to anyone who has responded, do not be offended if I seem to question your thinking. It's not that I think you're wrong, it's that I've had those same thoughts myself and find myself trying to talk myself out of them sometimes, if that makes sense.
So here goes:
What if he really is helpless? What then? Am I obligated to help him? Because it seems like it to me. He seems to follow a "tragic script" as one of my therapists said, but then, every once in a while, he gets it, or seems to anyway. This latest setback (getting fired) really wasn't his fault, but he did NEED that job, he has been living paycheck to paycheck. I don't think it's the easiest thing in the world, in the city we live in, to bounce back from living in a homeless shelter to getting a job. He's been in the homeless shelter. They don't even have showers there. How is he going to get and keep a job if he doesn't even have a place to shower, or computer access? In this economy, you hear about people all the time that divorce and still live together because they have to because the house won't sell, or one can't find a job, etc. The condo that I own is sitting empty and has been for over a year. If he would pay me out of the little money he still has even 100 dollars a month while he looks for a job, it would help me out, and help him avoid the homeless shelter. If he got a job tomorrow, he wouldn't get paid soon enough before his money runs out. It's hard for me to believe he will find a way to get by when I myself, and I am one of the most dogged people I know in trying to find "a way" can not think of what his other option might be. And that's me--and I'm not fighting alcoholism and crippling depression. I'm not proud of that, I don't go around crowing about it, I wish I didn't feel such compassion for him, but I do. If a person in need is the father of my child, how am I supposed to sleep at night thinking that I decided it would be better for him to wander around our city parks panhandling than give him a chance to get it together? And that is actually not a rhetorical question, as the thing that has caused me to break no contact in the past is my anxiety that gets so bad that I can't get to sleep at night, or eat, worrying about this. And I don't mean get it together with me, as a couple, just...get a job and have a place to shower and sleep until he does? I've seen him do it before, I know it can happen, I just am worried that if he goes down the rabbit hole of feeling no one will help and it's hopeless, then he never will be able to right his ship at all.
I'm going to leave the discussion about my bf out of this, as we have a very no pressure thing going on and he does understand that I am still not in a healthy place with this and has decided, for whatever reason, that he is willing to accept that I'm working on getting healthier but am not there yet. We don't live together, we're not engaged, it's low key and it works for us for right now. I know he's not "happy with it" but there are things about him too that I would change if I could, but I am willing to accept him for his flaws, and he for mine. And I will not get more serious with him until I can honestly say to myself that I am past these feelings of needing to caretake my ex.
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I want to mention two things also--one, this condo of mine is sitting empty and has been for over a year. I don't want to live with him, nor would I. Two, I think my payoff is just relieving my guilt and anxiety feelings and my feelings for pity for him. I feel like I do get my "superiority fix" quite a bit, that's not what this feels like it's about for me. I wish all the time (on shooting stars, on pennys) that he can just "be OK" and find someone else and move on. And that is for my own selfish reasons, more than his, because I feel like I will always have this crippling worry about him otherwise, and it is impacting my own life, and I don't want it to. I have struggled with worry since I was a child--I can measure my years in elementary school by which worry was tormenting me that particular year. I do want to let it go, I need help in learning how.
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You do understand that until he falls to his knees, he cannot get back up. You do understand that your enabling is only making it worse for him.
You are part of his problem, in order to embrace recovery he must fall to his bottom, you are doing everything in your power to stop the process.
He is not your child, he is an adult, he is your ex.
Your worrying/obsessing is a habit that you have acquired and fed over the years.
I am glad that you are seeing a therapist, keep going!
You are part of his problem, in order to embrace recovery he must fall to his bottom, you are doing everything in your power to stop the process.
He is not your child, he is an adult, he is your ex.
Your worrying/obsessing is a habit that you have acquired and fed over the years.
I am glad that you are seeing a therapist, keep going!
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I have to agree with dollydo. From where I sit the biggest problem here is your inability to detach because if you were able to do that you would both be in a better place.
If, however, you still allow him to move into the condo I'd strongly suggest that you make it 'legal' -- draw up a lease with strict terms and hold him accountable in that regard. That would be somewhat reasonable at least.
The other issue is the emotional manipulation of threatening suicide and/or calling you up and dumping his problems on you. This is where I would start drawing some strong boundaries. (My son used to do that until we called the police and he was admitted to the psych ward for 5 days. He hasn't done it again since.) You have far outstretched your "obligations" (as you put it) as his ex-wife and fellow human by allowing his problems to become your problems.
My signature says it: Let go or be dragged. You are being dragged. He is suffering the consequences of his choices and you are suffering yours. But then again, they are choices and you always have the free will to choose differently.
Be well.
If, however, you still allow him to move into the condo I'd strongly suggest that you make it 'legal' -- draw up a lease with strict terms and hold him accountable in that regard. That would be somewhat reasonable at least.
The other issue is the emotional manipulation of threatening suicide and/or calling you up and dumping his problems on you. This is where I would start drawing some strong boundaries. (My son used to do that until we called the police and he was admitted to the psych ward for 5 days. He hasn't done it again since.) You have far outstretched your "obligations" (as you put it) as his ex-wife and fellow human by allowing his problems to become your problems.
My signature says it: Let go or be dragged. You are being dragged. He is suffering the consequences of his choices and you are suffering yours. But then again, they are choices and you always have the free will to choose differently.
Be well.
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Good morning MQ,
I feel your pain as I read your words. It's very clear how much this is consuming your thoughts/plans/actions/energy right now.
It does make me wonder, though, just as you wonder "WHAT IF" he's helpless, I wonder WHAT IF you rented that condo out to a full-paying non-addicted tenant and used that money to save up for your daughter's education? Or put it in an account for her future financial wellbeing?
WHAT IF your AH had to make his own choice about his life (and wanting to live) without your input? Because we all have to make that choice for ourselves. And we do it alone even if others are around us. He may not choose to live, or he may. Either way it has nothing, nothing, nothing to do with you.
That hurts, doesn't it? I know because I've been there too. There's nothing like having your blessed and loving heart completely taken for granted. But it has nothing to do with you.
I appreciate your honesty with your bf, and with your exH, but the reason that he keeps coming back to you is because you're sending mixed messages by even showing a LITTLE willingness to rescue him. He's desperate for a parasite/host type of relationship with someone, and you've been willing to play.
If you want to help him I think there's only one way: let him find his way on his own, and take care of your broken heart while you turn away and let him find his own way, for both of your sakes', and your daughter's. Remember, pity does not equal love, no matter how much it seems that way. You rescuing him is actually not love...
I'm so sorry.
posie
I feel your pain as I read your words. It's very clear how much this is consuming your thoughts/plans/actions/energy right now.
It does make me wonder, though, just as you wonder "WHAT IF" he's helpless, I wonder WHAT IF you rented that condo out to a full-paying non-addicted tenant and used that money to save up for your daughter's education? Or put it in an account for her future financial wellbeing?
WHAT IF your AH had to make his own choice about his life (and wanting to live) without your input? Because we all have to make that choice for ourselves. And we do it alone even if others are around us. He may not choose to live, or he may. Either way it has nothing, nothing, nothing to do with you.
That hurts, doesn't it? I know because I've been there too. There's nothing like having your blessed and loving heart completely taken for granted. But it has nothing to do with you.
I appreciate your honesty with your bf, and with your exH, but the reason that he keeps coming back to you is because you're sending mixed messages by even showing a LITTLE willingness to rescue him. He's desperate for a parasite/host type of relationship with someone, and you've been willing to play.
If you want to help him I think there's only one way: let him find his way on his own, and take care of your broken heart while you turn away and let him find his own way, for both of your sakes', and your daughter's. Remember, pity does not equal love, no matter how much it seems that way. You rescuing him is actually not love...
I'm so sorry.
posie
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Mambo,
if you truly love this guy, you will let him go. Let him FALL. For HIS sake. He is like the stray, mangy dog you do not want in your house, but you keep feeding him scraps in your backyard. Let him go to stand on his own two feet, or to find someone else to take care of him. Turn your head and walk away. Stop making excuses for him. Go to Al-Anon. A divorce is a divorce now start acting like it.
if you truly love this guy, you will let him go. Let him FALL. For HIS sake. He is like the stray, mangy dog you do not want in your house, but you keep feeding him scraps in your backyard. Let him go to stand on his own two feet, or to find someone else to take care of him. Turn your head and walk away. Stop making excuses for him. Go to Al-Anon. A divorce is a divorce now start acting like it.
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Originally Posted by Mambo Queen
That is where I feel trapped. And this time, it's not even "I screwed up" but "I got screwed"--I do know for a fact that he did try his best to make this job work.
I ended up being fired, and it wasn't the vet, it was his wife.
It wasn't fair, but hey, life isn't fair.
I fought hard for my unemployment, and by God I got it after a hearing and the truth came out.
No one was running around, wringing their hands and trying to soften the blow for me after I got fired. Life is inherently unfair, MQ.
Your EXAH is not exempt from the unfairness of life anymore than I am.
EGO = Edging God Out
How's your conscious contact with a higher power when these things happen?
In my world, God and I can't be in the driver's seat simultaneously.
You're not going to quit doing exactly what you're doing until the pain becomes too great, and not a moment sooner.
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Originally Posted by Learn2Live
Mambo,
if you truly love this guy, you will let him go. Let him FALL. For HIS sake. He is like the stray, mangy dog you do not want in your house, but you keep feeding him scraps in your backyard. Let him go to stand on his own two feet, or to find someone else to take care of him. Turn your head and walk away. Stop making excuses for him. Go to Al-Anon. A divorce is a divorce now start acting like it.
if you truly love this guy, you will let him go. Let him FALL. For HIS sake. He is like the stray, mangy dog you do not want in your house, but you keep feeding him scraps in your backyard. Let him go to stand on his own two feet, or to find someone else to take care of him. Turn your head and walk away. Stop making excuses for him. Go to Al-Anon. A divorce is a divorce now start acting like it.
I just had to comment on this, because it totally struck me, and maybe this is where my faults lie. I'm a caretaker, too. I don't have to be needed in all my relationships; in fact, I would prefer to be the one who is taken care of - that's how it's usually been most of my life, after all. But as unfortunate as my life has been at times, my heart still aches for those who have it worse, even if it's due to poor choices they've made in life, because that's been me at times.
I want to address this analogy about the stray, mangy dog. In March, my daughter brought home a stray, mangy dog. He was very small and he smelled bad. He was skin and bones and filthy. He also had diarrhea and was not housebroken. I gave him a bath, fed him, made him a bed in my dog's crate, where he slept, warm and peacefully. This was a Friday night. After the weekend, we took him to the vet and were told he did have mange, worms and they started him on shots. The vet told us he was about 8-10 weeks old.
During the following week, I trained him to sit on command, and he was getting the hang of going potty outside, though he still had diarrhea. He was the sweetest, most lovable little puppy. I didn't want a second dog. I have a Rottweiler mix and love her to death, but one dog is enough for me. But we fell head over heels for this ugly, smelly, mangy little dog.
The following weekend, he started exhibiting strange and alarming symptoms, and we took him to the vet only to discover he had Distemper. He was too underweight and unhealthy to fight it and we had to put him down. It was incredibly heartbreaking for me and my kids. I still cry about it today when I think about it. We really did love that little puppy, and wanted so badly to give him a good life.
My point is that it's my nature to be a "do-gooder". I take in strays. I don't go looking for them, but if they find me, I want to do everything I can to make their world a little brighter. Maybe I get a payoff, maybe I don't. That's not my end goal. I don't have selfish motivations for doing what I do. I am by no means Mother Theresa, but whereas I used to love very selfishly and jealously and want for me no matter the cost, I have come to put more emphasis and desire on doing for others and making their world a better place.
I wear my heart on my sleeve and my empathy is larger than I am. I very much understand Mambo's conflicts with her ex. She was once deeply in love with this man. She had a child with this man. She had a very deep bond with this man. They became family, and whatever word you want to put on it - codependency, enabling, whatever - from my perspective, it's very hard to turn your back on someone you have a deep bond with, regardless if you are in a current relationship or not. I'm having the same issues with my xrabf and we don't have children together or lengthy relationship, but our relationship has a deep bond, and I can't help but worry about him, and I feel so many of the same things that Mambo is feeling.
Love, compassion and empathy don't just die because the ink on the divorce papers is dry. They don't die because you no longer live together. They don't even die if you have moved into another relationship.
Does her ex (and my xbf) need to stand on their own two feet, grow up, get real and get individually responsible and accountable? Absolutely! Do we need to let go of them and let them sink or swim ... probably so. What would they do if they had no where to go, no one to turn to, no one who cared? I suppose they would either sink or swim, huh? However, I personally do not think that I could emotionally handle hearing that my xbf had sunk if I didn't feel like I had done all I could possibly do to help him first.
Although I never had an alcohol/drug problem, even I had to be caught a few times when I fell before I could finally stand up on my own two feet independently. I know that if someone had left me with my face in the dirt at any of those given times, I could have been swallowed up by this cold, cruel world without a foothold to grab onto to pull myself up. I know personally what it's like to be suicidal and depressed so deeply that you can't pull yourself out of it. I have to take meds to control that. If I hadn't had people supporting me time after time, and if they had just "let me go" ... I can most assuredly say without a doubt I would be dead right now.
Mambo, I understand what you're going through, and I can completely sympathize. It's hard --- so very, very hard to turn your back on someone and watch them painfully fail, and then deal with the personal guilt that you will feel - even when that guilt is not yours to bear. We know this, we understand this. But seeing a loved one in pain is so miserable for those of us whose hearts ache for them. Some of us can't just "detach" and just let them swirl off into the abyss. :ghug3
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Originally Posted by Mambo Queen
What if he really is helpless? What then? Am I obligated to help him? Because it seems like it to me.
So what if he IS helpless. Do you see how you have contributed to that? How many times have you swooped in and rescued him in the past? And each time you think, with a little help, he will finally be able to make it on his own? And yet he is still 'helpless' and needy? And you still think 'helping' him one more time, will be just the thing he needs to finally turn it around? Do you see the insanity in that line of thinking? (Definition of insanity: repeating the same behavior again and again, and expecting a different result.)
If you really want to get healthy, you need to explore why it is you believe you are so powerful and why you are willing to keep this man dependent on you in order to satisfy your own ego.
L
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
"But seeing a loved one in pain is so miserable for those of us whose hearts ache for them."
Yes, this is the point of your OWN Recovery. Working on your OWN self instead of pointing your finger at the alcoholic and using HIM as your scapegoat. Being self-righteous does not make you right. It certainly did not help me.
"Some of us can't just "detach" and just let them swirl off into the abyss." Yes you can.
Yes, this is the point of your OWN Recovery. Working on your OWN self instead of pointing your finger at the alcoholic and using HIM as your scapegoat. Being self-righteous does not make you right. It certainly did not help me.
"Some of us can't just "detach" and just let them swirl off into the abyss." Yes you can.
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 71
Originally Posted by LaTeeDa
How many times have you swooped in and rescued him in the past? And each time you think, with a little help, he will finally be able to make it on his own? And yet he is still 'helpless' and needy? And you still think 'helping' him one more time, will be just the thing he needs to finally turn it around? Do you see the insanity in that line of thinking? (Definition of insanity: repeating the same behavior again and again, and expecting a different result.)
If you really want to get healthy, you need to explore why it is you believe you are so powerful and why you are willing to keep this man dependent on you in order to satisfy your own ego.
If you really want to get healthy, you need to explore why it is you believe you are so powerful and why you are willing to keep this man dependent on you in order to satisfy your own ego.
That's what I am hoping for in my insanity.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
"But seeing a loved one in pain is so miserable for those of us whose hearts ache for them."
Yes, this is the point of your OWN Recovery. Working on your OWN self instead of pointing your finger at the alcoholic and using HIM as your scapegoat. Being self-righteous does not make you right. It certainly did not help me.
"Some of us can't just "detach" and just let them swirl off into the abyss." Yes you can.
Yes, this is the point of your OWN Recovery. Working on your OWN self instead of pointing your finger at the alcoholic and using HIM as your scapegoat. Being self-righteous does not make you right. It certainly did not help me.
"Some of us can't just "detach" and just let them swirl off into the abyss." Yes you can.
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