sallybobally

Sorry, I crossposted!

I am new to the group! Ironically, I logged on to find the perfect thread for how I am feeling. (Kirsty's post)

Some background... I am the child of a 25 year recovering alcoholic father. He was in no way physically or emotionally abusive, but rather a person who was irresponsible in taking care of our family. I am also saddened by the childhood I had at times. I hated having to be so responsible at such a young age. My father could barely keep a job. My mother is the breadwinner and works her but off until this day. Looking back, I also realize that my mother was very much an enabler and still is. I have been to counseling at different times in my life, and new insight comes during different stages. I am in one of those stages

My current anger comes from the self centeredness in my father that is becoming increasingly irritating the older I get. I have personally been able to deal with it (or overlook it) most of my adult life (through much counseling.) Now it is beginning to affect the relationship he and my mother have with my children, and as a mother, I think I have my back up more as a result.

My mother has always wanted grandchildren. It is what she has lived for. My two children are the only two (grandchildren) and up until recently, my parents have had a great relationship with them. They have spent a great deal of time with them, but recently it has been all but nonexistent. My husband and brother have noticed it as well. We have come to the conclusion that it centers around my father and the need to have things go his way (where to eat, what time to eat, what shows to watch, where to go etc.) My children are 7 and 3 and my father acts like he is one of them.

As a result, my parents have stopped having them for overnight visits (they live an hour away.) and the effort to see them has declined. I think this hurts my mother, but she wouldn't dare speak her mind with him. She does with everyone else, but not with him. He gets his way and always has.

I would love to have some insight on how to deal with this. Personally, I am choosing not to engage. Not because I don't want to, but because I know that I am not going to change the way my father thinks. He is self centered and always will be. This was a hard lesson to learn, but I am glad I at least recognize it as an older adult. It is the core of his alcoholic ways. What I hate is that my children aren't seeing their grandparents because of it (in particular, my mother.) I also hate that she doesn't have the guts to stand up to him.

So, do I say something to my mother, or do I just not make the effort with them at all. I am so tired of my father calling the shots. I have been through enough counseling to know it is not anything me or my children have done. I just don't have the energy for it anymore. I often think the alcoholism allows my father to get a pass on taking some responsibility for his own actions. I think that is the part the really bugs me.

Thanks for listening and any advice you may have.

DesertEyes

Hello Sally, and welcome to our little corner of recovery

Oh goodness I can relate to that. I used to feel that I was the only adult in my family, when I was 12 years old.

Good for you

I see several different issues going on in what you describe. I can share what I see in my own experience.

I have several "toxic" people in my family, much like the "dry drunk" you describe as your father. I too realized that their behavior caused me a great deal of harm. Not just the physical harm, but also the fact that they were the only role models I had. Every year of toxic role modeling resulted in significant pain as a young adult, and some hefty therapy bills. When I had a family of my own I decided I was going to give my own kids the best role models I could find, and that meant keeping them _away_ from my own parents.

What kind of role modeling are your parents giving your children? Yours are still young, but as the years go by those subtle lessons of how a man treats a woman and how much degradation she is supposed to suffer are going to sink in little by little. Do you think your kids will be affected that way? From your description of your father he doesn't sound like he's much in the way of a role model. If he is as negative and passive-aggresive as your typical "dry drunk", he doesn't sound like the kind of man that should be around _any_ kids, especially those that are going to soak up his attitudes unconsciously.

As far as your mother, mine was a full blown codie as you describe. Along with being alcoholic and in her last years a pill addict. I too had expectations that she should have been stronger and defended us kids from my father. My demands for a decent Mom were just as unrealistic as those for a decent Dad. I got stuck with a couple of folks who had far more weaknesses than strengths.

One of my biggest challenges in my recovery as an ACoA was realizing that I had my own "addiction". My parents were addicted to booze, and to each other. I was addicted to a fantasy. I had this fantasy that if I just figured out the right way to talk to them, or the right things to do, or the right way to act, that somehow I could make my fantasy come true and have decent parents. That was just the adult version of a small child trying to placate an angry parent.

As a result of working the program of ACoA, and a couple good therapists, I figured out my own addiction to fantasy. I was then able to stop reacting as a child to my toxic parents and start living my own life, free from the echoes of the past. My parents never changed, they eventually died as toxic as the day they met. I am the one that changed. I allowed them the dignity of living their own lives as they chose, I stopped enabling them and focused my time and energy on people who were not toxic. I lost the anger I had at my parents for not being the creatures of my fantasy, and learned how to see them as just two selfish people that really were not very nice to begin with.

One of the ACoA "tools" that has helped me the most is our own version of the Serenity Prayer:

HP, grant me the serenity to accept the past I cannot change.
The courage to change the future I can.
And the wisdom to start today.

whadya think?

Mike

sallybobally

I think You pegged the addiction I have. It is wishing I had a different childhood. While I realize I cannot change the past, I still have that feeling Of what the perfect family looks like and I probably go a little overboard with my own family in wanting things to be perfect. Thanks for pointing that out.

What I am most saddened by is that my parents were so active with my son. Then my daughter came along, and things changed. I probably should mention that my children are adopted from Russia. My daughter was and is a little harder to handle than my son. She is your typical 3 year old where my son was delayed and he did not go through the terrible twos and threes syndrome. He had some after effects from being in an orphanage. He was and is a quiet child because his needs were not met when he started crying when he was a baby.

I probably should mention that they were very good grandparents until recently. Happy, engaging, fun to be with, but you brought up a point I never thought of - my father does expect my mother to do everything for him. I don't want my son to treat his wife this way. I don't want my son to be demanding about his meals and what he wants to do. I will ponder this for a while. It is food for thought.

What brought this all to a head for me is that I am having back surgery in 3 weeks. I need some help with my children. My mother has not really put herself out there to help. In the past, she would have, so something is going on. My brother and husband think it is my Dad in the background wanting to keep her for himself instead of letting her come stay with me. He doesn't want to stay here with her because he doesn't control things in my house. When he barks at my mother for a sandwich, I tell him to get up and do it himself (of course in my nicer codependent way.)

I think what I hear you saying is that I need to just continue to deal with my own family without going out of my way to accommodate my parents. Is that right?

Thanks so much for your insight. It is always nice to hear a third party's opinion particularly coming from someone who had a similar childhood.


I love the ACoA version of the Serenity Prayer. Thanks for sharing. It will become my new mantra.

DesertEyes

If you spend a little time browsing thru the posts here you'll see it's a very common addiction amongst ACoA's.

You make it sound like your daughter was the cause of the change. One of the characteristics of alcoholism, whether "wet" or "dry", is that it is a progressive condition. Sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, but the alkie always gets worse. Perhaps your father is just on the normal downward curve and he would have gotten worse even if you had never adopted any children, or had any of your own.

One of the "brainwashings" that ACoA's get as children is that their behavior has some kind of influence on the toxic parents. In a twisted sort of way, it's a healthy thing. Kids who are smart enough to realize that they have _no_ effect become insane. It's actually something that was discovered with victims of torture during war. Kids who believe they have _some_ control over their toxic parents are able to hold on to a kernel of hope, and they manage to survive.

Ok, so we're a little dysfunctional from all the emotional abuse, but we survive

Blaming ourselves for the alkies behavior is also quite common. Mix that in with believing that we have some control over them and you can see how we get "stuck" in these toxic relationships for years and years.

From what you have described, I think expecting your parents to be any kind of help at all is like going to buy bread at the hardware store

Does the reason really matter? Whatever the reason, the result is still the same. You need the physical and emotional support of people who are family, such as your brother and husband. "Family" to me is people who are willing to sacrifice of themselves to help me in my time of need. My parents were never "family", they were just the biological accidents of my conception. I could have received the same upbringing in a million other toxic homes, even in an orphanage. Well.... I've seen orphanage workers and foster parents do a much better job of parenting than I ever got.

Suppose you did figure out the psychological reason behind your parents toxic behavior. Suppose you got yourself a Ph.D in psychology and worked it all out and wrote a whole book just on them. What would it change? I'll tell you a little secret. I went and got myself a degree in Psychology and practiced in the field for many years as I pursued my addiction to a fantasy. Did not change my parents at all. Not one bit.

Ok, so it got me into therapy a lot sooner. So it was beneficial to me, but I never found the way to change my past.

I think you need to look at which "brainwashing" you have been stuck with. Examine _your_ reasons for maintaining this relationship with your parents at a level that is obviously causing you pain. Once you can separate your own "toxic fantasies" from healthy realities then you can decide what is best for your children and yourself, and in what measure. The easy way to do that is to pick up some of the ACoA literature at an Al-anon meeting in your area. You can find them in the phone book or here

How to find a meeting in the US/Canada/Puerto Rico

Listen to the folks at the meetings, read thru the posts here on SoberRecovery and see what insights apply to you. You've been thru therapy, so you know how to do this. Perhaps all you need to do is fine tune things, maybe just meet your parents with your children at a public place where he doesn't get so over-bearing. Maybe just go pick up your Mom and take her shopping without your Dad. There's a million different ways you can adjust the time and place where they interact with your children.

no worries, that is what we are here for

Mike