FindingPeace1

Hey, all.
I'm back from a 6 day vacation with my husband.
I was on good behavior for his birthday (no talking about difficult things), which made for a warm and cuddly week.

We visited his mom and step dad. Step dad has diabetes Type 1 (my husband just had his one year diagnosis anniversary for type 1). Step dad is blind (with a guide dog), had terrible, painful nueropathy, has a bag for peeing because his system doesn't work anymore, needs help getting up, and getting dressed, walks with a cane, has had strokes and heart attacks, etc. etc.
Really depressing stuff for my husband to see up close (we live in a different state). Plus, his mom is his full time caretaker (and very codie), so she never gets a break. She is overwhelmed and sad and frustrated about the situation, while loving him and wanting to care for him.
I think my hubby is terrified. He doesn't go to deep into his fears. My husband feels like I should leave him because he doesn't want us to become like that. <sigh>

His mom told us a story of how step dad wanted to help in the yard with a yard tool. She lied (on purpose) that she didn't know where it was, then when he found it, she said she thought it didn't work...all to try to get him to not overwork himself (instead of telling him the truth).
My husband's lying made a lot more sense, seeing that. (wow.)

When we got back to town, my husband asked if we still had stuff to deal with. I said we did. There were still things I wanted to discuss. He said he didn't even know what they were (I have told him). I asked him if he wanted to hear them again. He said he didn't know. I told him again anyway - alcohol, money, and sex. He started getting angry and swearing. I told him this was EXACTLY why I didn't want to bring it up! His mood spiraled into darkness, again.

He said he had to accept that our happy week was, again, a trick. A farce. A falsity.
Why can't the good stuff be real? I asked. Why is the hard stuff more real than the good stuff? Why can't they both be true?
But, to him, they can't. For him, if he THINKS I never loved him, that IS REALITY. There is only his reality. And for me to have stuff I want to talk about, but haven't...well, I never loved him and the whole relationship has been a farce.

I was surprisingly level headed. I left him to be upset and I watched a movie. He disappeared into the garage to do projects. I thought I smelled wine on his breath, but I'm not sure...I may go hunting for alcohol in there, just to confirm my suspicions that he's sneaky-drinking...

When it's good, man...he is SO AMAZING. He is so loving and sweet and affectionate and thoughtful...

I am plodding along with my recovery. Detaching from his crap as best I can and appreciating the good. Continuing to try to address the hard stuff gently and lovingly and persistently and not being surprised when he obfuscates and dramatizes every time. Not giving up on me or my needs. Finding patience.

We'll see what comes next. We'll see if he goes back to therapy. The therapist told my husband that he is ex military AND brought up his strong religious beliefs a couple of times (even though I asked him to leave that stuff at the door with my husband). So my husband is pissed of at those things (like I knew he would be) and I'm not sure he'll go back.

I will.

Hugs,
w

suki44883

Going to the garage to hunt for evidence of him drinking is not detaching, sweetie. Waiting to see what he decides to do is not detaching, either. Just something to think about. (((HUGS)))

stella27

Been thinking of you, wifey.
Glad to see you.

FindingPeace1

LOL! You're right about the alcohol hunting, for sure!
But waiting and seeing? That's no good either?
Crap!
What else is there?

suki44883

Well, what, exactly are you waiting for?

Why?

FindingPeace1

yea. I am waiting for him to...be willing.
Why?
Why don't I leave?

Because I am sure he'll open up any day now. If I just...

Because I feel it is SOOOO good...it is too much to lose.
Can't I get everything I want with him?
Because it is comfortable and nice.
Because I made a lifetime commitment!
Because I feel safe in this life I created, for the most part.
I'm afraid I am too demanding.
Because my fussiness seems not a good enough reason to leave a whole marriage.
Afraid I am going to walk away from a good thing because I am so hard to please.
I don't want to go because I don't want to give up the goodies.
Because he is generally easy going and loving and affectionate and supportive.
Because walking away from all that good seems crazy.
Because I don't trust he's not being sneaky, but then go search for evidence and find none and fear I am tripping on myself. Maybe I am making this worse than it is...
Because when he pushes me away my rescuer wants to stay MORE!
Because I know no one is perfect.
Because I know he can't help himself and I feel sorry for him and his limitations.
Because the "healthy" thing to do is to stick with the marriage and try to make it work.
Because maybe all relationships have this level of "stuck issues" and I am giving up so much great just to learn the lesson the hard way in the future.

I don't want to accept it as is because...

I am afraid I am giving myself up and I need to grow.
Because I am afraid I will continue to give myself up.
Because I am afraid it will get worse (his drinking or lying or hiding).
Because I feel like he lied to me and never admitted it and I feel angry and distrustful and don't know how to let it go and trust him.
Because I am afraid we'll have kids and then he will get his weird, shut down way with them and mess with their heads.
Or get angry with them and mess with their heads.
Or we'll have kids and I will get fed up in the future and divorce and go through hell parenting with him as divorcees.
Because not letting his 'not talking' shut me up feels like I am standing up for myself, which feels good.
Because if I stop pushing him to talk, I feel like he gets to be/do whatever he wants and I don't get my needs met and that makes me feel mad and like a sucker (and a victim).

Have I mentioned how complicated it is in my head?

The therapist asked him if there was anything he was opposed to talk about and he said no.
I rationalized that maybe he was turning over a new leaf. (ahhh, denial)

I am still scheming to change him. you are right. I keep thinking a "normal, healthy" relationship means compromise and he will eventually "get" that and be willing.
I "extra" want to wait because he SAYS he wants to talk.

Maybe it will be fine. Maybe I should just accept him as is and appreciate all the good. Maybe we won't have any issues that are "too big" in the future and it won't get so bad again. Maybe what I consider "so bad" is really normal relationship problems. Maybe I should leave him be. Maybe I push too hard. Maybe I am being demanding. Maybe I am unfair. Maybe I am expecting him to be superhuman. Maybe I want him to be perfect. Maybe I don't appreciate him enough. Maybe I caused all this heartache. Maybe he just needs me to accept him. Maybe I'll be fine if we don't talk about those things. Maybe I am making too big a deal about it. Maybe a requirement of communication about everything is unreasonable.

Maybe it is a big problem. Maybe he lies about more than I know about. Maybe it will get worse. Maybe he'll never recover from this and the relationship is doomed anyway. Maybe he'll become a big closet drinker now. Maybe he'll destroy his health. Maybe if I accept it as is I am a doormat because he lied and got away scot free. Maybe I need to stand up for myself. Maybe he can't be trusted. Maybe we'll have kids and then the s**t will hit the fan. Maybe I will find out something terrible in the future because I trusted someone who lied to me. Maybe accepting him means I have no boundaries.

I can't seem to get anywhere. All this is circular.

LaTeeDa

News flash: He gets to be/do whatever he wants regardless of how much you push him.

You're making it all about leaving or staying. That's Action. The three A's are Awareness, Acceptance, Action.

You're trying to skip over the middle one. That's why you cannot decide on an action. They go in order. You have to have acceptance first.

L

FindingPeace1

by the way, Stella, HI! Thanks for that welcome.

Anvil - love the avatar!

FindingPeace1

Awww, shucks, LTD!
Okay. That's good. Cuz the action choice hasn't been happening.
Geez. I don't even know how.
I can't.
Okay. I will sit with that for now.

Just accept.

Stop resisting.

What if accepting makes me feel sad?
Then feel sad.
Okay.
(Yes, I'm talking to myself.)
Oh, I don't want to feel the feelings that come with acceptance!

So, that makes MY work clearer. To give space for those feelings.

I will keep you updated.

barb dwyer

You witnesses first hand that he was raised in a house where lying was acceptable
even expected in a partnership and relationship.

You said something about it
he freaked.

probably drank, you say....
(the way written 'as a means of striking back')
as an alcoholic I KNOW FOR A FACT
we don't need a reason.
We drink because we're alcoholics.
We're never not going to be alcoholics.
Period.

You have trust issues.
he was raised in lies.
he LIKES his lies.
I don't see those two ships
mooring at the same dock.

er. for very long.

Just pointing out something I saw
that is more than likely two core beliefs
that are going to remain oppositional....
from now on.

GiveLove

Wife, I was startled by how much the inside of your head looks like the inside of MY head. Different issues (well, some) but the same level of complexity. I think your fears are very valid ones, quite plausible to expect to see them come true, based on what you've shared with us over these months. Maybe not, maybe so...who knows?

I have no good advice, but I wanted you to know that I understand what a tough situation you face. It's so much easier to find the right action when things are bad.

I second the motion to spend a few weeks working on Acceptance. You don't have to do Action now. And for some reason your post made me think of the work of Byron Katie...do you know of her? Very big on staying here, in this moment, right now. That, instead of projecting suffering into the future....which really is, if you think about it, just a series of Nows you'd have to manage.

Helenlee

The therapist told my husband that he is ex military AND brought up his strong religious beliefs a couple of times (even though I asked him to leave that stuff at the door with my husband). So my husband is pissed of at those things (like I knew he would be) and I'm not sure he'll go back.

Lucky for you the therapist refused your invitation to play "codependent controlling behaviour" or you guys could have got some really weird stuff happening! You might just have been able to rationalize staying in the marriage forever if you'd set things up with a therapist you could control too!

(said with love by a recovering control freak - who today managed to post an introduction, inspired by this thread. Thank you )

JenT1968

all those reasons were in my head: all of them. I am struck by many things, but I will pick out 2 themes that I am very familiar with.
accepting doesn't mean labelling his behaviour acceptable, or tolerating or condoning or living with or promoting.

accepting means understanding on a deep real level that HE IS WHO HE IS, that he has a load of behaviours and feelings and thoughs that you love and a problem drinking alcohol, lies, runs away from confrontation, blames, AND DOESN'T WANT TO CHANGE. this is the whole person that he is. Not his potential future, not his damaged or shining past. Just him, exactly as he is, right now.

your reasons about not wanting to accept the situation, actually seem like reasons for you not wanting to view his behaviour as acceptable. No-one is suggesting the latter.

whether or not you ACCEPT the reality of your current situation will not impact on any of your list, because they are all about his behaviours, whereas acceptance is about your understanding, so that you can make clear decisions based in reality.

The more you accept, the less circular your arguments will become.

at the same time is this...

to me, all of the above speaks to you minimising your needs, trying to distort the realtiy of your perceptions to make this a good, nurturing relationship.

I have a need to be viewed as a fair person. I have a horror of the adjectives unreasonable, demanding, fussy, unhealthy, unfair being applied to me, as if I don't deserve to be if I am these things. I therefore twist and distort and minimise my needs so that I ask for nothing overtly. I am learning that these things are to a large degree subjective . there is no universal constant of what it is reasonable to in a relationship.

Whilst I cannot force anyone to meet my needs, I am not selfish or unfair if I leave a situation or relationship that does not meet my needs.

There are no medals for sticking it out in an unhealthy situation and you are trying to think, behave, explain, persuade your husband into changing to meet your needs (very reasonable needs in my estimation, but the point is it doesn't matter).

I'm not quite sure how to phrase the next bit without seeming to undermine you, and I may be wrong, because this is based on my perceptions in an internet forum: take what you like etc. You seem to be able to hear positive critisism without defensiveness, which is a great skill (that I have yet to perfect LOL!), open to change, positive in outlook, willing to compromise, all great stuff. Sometimes, though, I wonder whether you are enacting the responses that you think are "good" and "healthy"? just like you think that the healthy response to problems in a marriage is to stick them out and try and work on them (any problem? no matter how destructive?). It might be worth looking at what your core beliefs surrounding what "healthy" and "fair" are (with your therapist) and where they come from.

I know I had to stop going to Alanon because at the point where I was then, it was just one more group of people that I felt I had to please, another mask, another set of rules to live up to, I spent some time giving the "right" responses rather than my actual feelings and thoughts. I was unable to truely be myself, which stifled my progress. This may be very wide of the mark for you, so feel free to ignore!

lc2846

I agree with everyone here that you need detachment if you're hanging on every single interaction with your partner. Relationships can't grow or change without oxygen.

I'm going to be contrarian to much of what's been said here:
It's easy to interpret the advice of "what you see is what you get; don't wait around for him to change" as meaning, "when are you going to get busy and leave his a** already?!!" I don't think that's what people here mean. (If they do, they're out of line, because they're not in your shoes.) Do you feel sometimes like you have to justify to the people here why you're still in the marriage? Don't! It sounds like there's still a lot of good in it for you (as well as some profound difficulty), and that it's a huge, tough call for you. Give that its due and be gentle with yourself as you slog through this.

I see a lot of hyperfocus in your post--certainly on him, but also on the thinking part of your brain. Can you get in better touch with your gut on this? When I overthink things, I make bad decisions.

I didn't know that the two of you were seeing a therapist together. Given that the marriage isn't abusive and there's no big yank to get out right now (other than time passing and the biological clock ticking, of course), why not let the therapy do its work for a while and not worry about your husband's resistance? If there were no resistance, therapy would be easy and we would all do it for fun. Let your husband feel his pain and work through it in his own way, even if it's slow, without trying to feel it for him or judge how he should be feeling it.

If it's truly a dead end, trust yourself to see that when the time comes. And trust whatever the outcome, you'll be OK. Hell, you'll be great.

Hugs,
LC

FindingPeace1

GiveLove - I do know Byron Katie and like her a lot. Thanks for that suggestion.
I think I am in the moment, but I have this obsessive over thinking I do that has all that junk up there I listed (and far more) running on the back burner a lot of the time. I guess I need more Byron Katie! Daily meditation helps me, too.

Helenlee - So glad you introduced yourself! Hooray! And THANKS for that tip about controlling behavior. You are SO right. I pussyfoot around my husband because he is sensitive. I try to control the environment (or myself) to keep him happy/level headed (see Codie No More book discussion Ch. 8). It's nutty. I didn't see it before in this situation but I DO think the therapist should keep his religious views to himself (he's not a religious therapist), but I also see how I was trying to manipulate my husband's experience.
The problem is the next closest therapist to try out is 2 hours away and I just don't have it in me to drive that far...so I think I will stick with this one.
Therapy takes so long - one hour once a week seems hardly enough to get anywhere. Perhaps I am impatient (Perhaps? LOL!). I am, especially, since I leave in May to work in another state for the summer. I want results NOW!

JenT - you are right. I have acceptance that it exists and approval of it meshed in my head. I feel like if I accept it, I am saying it is okay. Weird. I don't know where I got that. It makes me do a lot of avoiding (mentally) of things in the world. I think because my mom's favorite movie is Pollyanna (literally). So I have a worldview that doesn't make space for yuck. We never had locks for the doors in our house. Mom said there was so much love, a burglar would come near our house and just feel wrong about robbing it. (That's loony, huh?) So I don't have self-protection skills or much ability to see danger. So to see something that feels bad or wrong, feels like I bring that into my life. Safer to deny it exists. - That's so whacked, I know! (that's a non-helpful self-judgment. )

Okay, so to accept my husband's shut down-ness and drinking and lying and dark side exists, doesn't mean I have to
* give up my self protection
* stay in the marriage (or leave it)
* trust him
* suffer any injustice
* have kids with him
* stop saying what I want to say
* stop wanting a partner who communicates openly
* give up on my own needs or wanting to get them met.

I need more time with this concept, for sure.

About "healthiness" - I have a lot of crap around it. I want to be healthy. I have it on a huge pedestal. I judge my husband by my standards. I judge myself. A little kid side of me feels not healthy "enough". My husband does, too. That's why he doesn't like hearing I am dissatisfied. If I am dissatisfied, then there is something WRONG. It means HE is WRONG and BAD. My own weirdness and judgments around "healthy" exacerbate this. This came from my mom, too. She has, for as long as I can remember, been going to self improvement workshops.
It felt like any thing I went through was processed through that filter. There wasn't much, "Wow. You feel sad. That's hard." Or even, "This situation is unhealthy or unsafe. Let's do something about it." It was a lot more of how that was my perception. It was my choice to see it in a certain way. Judgments of others don't help. Don't "throw up" on someone else with your upset." (a mom quote) I think I may be trying to live up to an unattainable standard of "healthy" perfection that I think my mom wants.
Even when my mom found out that at 17 I was dating (aka predated upon) by my bus driver, she did not stop it. She told us she didn't like it and if she found out anything bad had happened (?) she would call the school. So, I didn't get protected or get modeling of boundaries. I think I learned that if you just bend the situation in your mind *enough* you can make it healthy. <sigh>

lc - I am afraid to get out of my head. I feel like feelings are transitory and not to be trusted. I have done a lot of work to connect with my feelings lately, which has been great, but I have an underlying distrust of them (as far as *listening* to them). Again, mom. She did not express feelings. Particularly negative ones. She is nice/neutral all the time.
I feel like I am angry and distrustful and sad right now, but I fear some of that comes from my husband's upset/shut down/pushing me away/depression expressing itself. I don't know what feelings are mine, truly, and not enmeshed/reaction feelings. I don't know what I feel for me.
I feel like feelings are transitory and so how can you trust them? They are going to change.
But maybe when you say gut, you mean not thoughts OR feelings.
I am not sure I know or trust my gut.
LOL! Obviously I don't!

Tell me about how you find your gut feelings!

LaTeeDa

Wife,

I have to say that I can relate so much to your thought process. I have a very analytical mind. I solve problems. It's what I do. From a very early age, I discovered that I have a gift for it. And there are very few problems I've encountered that I couldn't solve. I'm handy around the house. My job is in IT. My problem-solving skills have served me well in many ways.

But........
(you knew there was a but!)
My therapist helped me understand that people are not projects. I literally spent decades of my life trying to solve my husband and my marriage. I just knew that if I was persistent enough, I would be victorious. I actually approached it as a challenge. If anyone could do it, I could. Problems were my specialty! Even problems that would make others throw their hands up in the air, I could solve. Other people might not be able to change an alcoholic, but that's just because they weren't clever enough.

The hardest thing for me to accept was that his problems were beyond my control. He could not be my project. I could not fix him. I couldn't even, with all my powers of persuasion, convince him to fix himself. Ouch. What a blow.

L

FindingPeace1

So, okay.
Let's say I can't fix him.
Accepting, as is.
Let's say that.
No more hope of change.
Acceptance.

Right away I have a voice that says I can accept my husband's issues in my life.
I can be more accepting of him.
I can let him be imperfect.
I can love him for his strengths.
I can stop traumatizing him by expecting him to be what he is not.
I can "let go and let god".
I can stop obsessing and pestering.
I can be more respectful and let him be human.

Okay. Jumping to action again. Oops.
Just letting it be.

I get it intellectually.
All I have to do is accept it is real.

I'm sticking with acceptance today.

Helenlee

One of the biggest difficulties I had in accepting that my marriage wasn't where I wanted to be was the very strong attraction I had to my husband. He has some attributes that score off the chart for my particular value system/personal attraction scale. Some of them are things in common with what you find attractive about your husband. In fact, when I read one of your posts about the positive attributes of your husband & your marriage, I thought "gee, I doubt I'd ever be able to leave this guy." I can see why you're struggling so hard with this.
Like you, as good as the good bits were, I couldn't shake the feeling that for all I was receiving, I was loosing something of irreplaceable value in exchange. And like you, I intellectualized it & analyzed it & over thought it to death. The analogy I came up with is this: it was like having all the numbers but one for first prize in a billion dollar lottery. On my ticket, the last number is a 3, & on the winning ticket, it's an 8. So I'm standing at the counter of the lotto god, begging & pleading that I have all the other numbers, & a 3 looks an awful lot like an 8, & I really want to win this particular lotto. And I've been standing there for 8 years begging them to make an exception for me. And I slowly realize I can stand at that counter for the rest of my life arguing that s/he should transform the 3 into an 8, or I can accept what is & walk out of the office & get on with my life.
When you're ready, you'll know if you have all your numbers or not. And you'll know what to do about the answer.

Life is a journey that is much longer & much harder than I ever expected when I was young. For me, the only way to survive it has been to learn to accept, to allow. Hence my signature: "Every day is a journey & the journey itself is home."

LaTeeDa

Wow, I thought of the lottery when I read this, too. Acceptance doesn't mean giving up hope of change. It means giving up expectation of change. As in--I hope to win the lottery, but I don't expect it.

L

Serenebynow

Hi wife!
I missed you. Ok let me express my view on this. My therapist asked me why do I feel the need to point out all or most of what I see as problems with him and his family. How dare I point out there dysfunctional ways?
I think because in my dis ease, I find it easier to blame them for making me sick! It's a form of taking the focus off of me and my issues, and zeroing in on them. I get the circular squirel cage thinking too! I can easily justify my finger pointing, and solution tossing as we all know how codependant I am.
I feel that all the work I've done on me is wasted if I don't share with them how they need work too!
Another thing therapist asked me to do was compile all the good traits of him and all the " not so good", compare and decide which one is more important or if there is a deal breaker. I'm much too fear filled to do this and I keep putting it off.
Hmmmmm, I think you are right exactly where you oughta be!
Let's keep coming back!